Seriously - why the hell is English compulsory? (1 Viewer)

Should English be compulsory?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 19.1%
  • No

    Votes: 93 80.9%

  • Total voters
    115

blyatman

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You can't say that English should be compulsory because there are jobs for teaching English which need it... that's a circular argument. Regardless, yes, some jobs like authors and stuff need it, but if you use that logic, then math should be compulsory because there's significantly more jobs that need math than english. There's very few jobs that need the words you learn in HSC english. The words that you do need will be technical terms related to your degree, and not words you learn in HSC english.

I can see society progressing just fine and unaffected if we completely removed the HSC english course. On the other hand, I don't see society progressing very well if we had removed the HSC math courses. Keep in mind we're talking about HSC english, not english as a language, or K-10 english.
 

Cujo10

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This compulsory english will end, soon. But before it does, a lot more people gotta cry.
 

Pedro123

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I have actually come up with another theory - English is there to stop STEM students (Hear me out).
A lot of stem subjects have a lot of crossover in the sort of skills they need (i.e. physics needs math, engineering needs physics, so on). These skills are usually characterised by problem-solving and understanding the concepts presented to you (Very broad stroke). Many students have these skills from birth, and they can uniquely be better taught to students from a young age.

If we were to ditch english, these students would much better be able to run wild in the courses - the STEM subjects with higher scaling means that they can just dedicate their life to those skills. While that is not necessarily a bad thing, it does mean they line themselves for an entirely STEM job. This should be their choice.

The issue comes when you have students who do not necessarily have those same skills. They will pick subjects like Business studies or history or languages or something not STEM related, which may be hard, but does not necessarily scale well. (This looks at a deep rooted issue in our education system.) So, students could theoretically do a bunch of subjects that have such easily transferable skills (Not just something as general as essay writing, since essay writing in economics is very different to essay writing in history) and do brilliantly, which then makes our nation move to more STEM-based qualification.

While this may not be bad, there still needs to be some variation in the sorts of things students do, and other students need a chance. Enter English. English is aimed (Since it must count to your HSC) to stop this entrenchment - it works virtually the exact opposite way to any STEM subject for some unique reasons:
1) Extremely subjective - other than spelling and grammar, everything is subjective, nothing is objective
2) The ways you support your answer must be backed up by evidence that is not necessarily obvious, as in a thesis in economics could be supported with facts, but a thesis in english must be supported by analysis of a piece you must do yourself (I mean you can look it up but still)
3) Everything can be argued - that is, when you enter an exam, as long as you back up a claim with evidence, anything is right. This not only forces children to think critically about what exactly their opinion is but investigate why it is so.
4) Really, English is an art (especially writing creatives). You could do all the analysis into different eras and writing styles, create the perfect formula for a piece, but in the end, it is an art. You need to be able to naturally replicate a piece by taking conventions and integrating them with yourself.
5) Math especially has a process - this does this, which leads to this, which leads to this. You cross a threshold where you can completely understand what is put in front of you. With English, you need to constantly learn and absorb information, and you never truly know if you are ready. Also, you need to be much more adaptable (With new syllabus change) to the situation at hand - while math problems require problem-solving skills, answering an English question needs you to formulate a response of what is an opinion, and you never really know when you have finished supporting it.

While we all would love english to be gotten rid of, would we really appreciate having to compete with students who have had tutoring since they were 3 years old in math and who now are Gods at it? Personally, I don't think my daily visits to Khan Academy could ever go toe-to-toe with tens of thousands of dollars of tutoring from a young age. I by no means support English - but I can see a reason for having it.
Please debate - I am keen for feedback
 

DnaRna

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apparently it's to nerf the new kids cause our maths course is wayyyyyyy behind the rest of the world's (hyperbole)
 

Drdusk

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would we really appreciate having to compete with students who have had tutoring since they were 3 years old in math and who now are Gods at it? Personally, I don't think my daily visits to Khan Academy could ever go toe-to-toe with tens of thousands of dollars of tutoring from a young age. I by no means support English - but I can see a reason for having it.
Please debate - I am keen for feedback
I wouldn't mind. There's not that many of them out there, if anything there's hardly any. Those that are that good are part of the few who represent Aus in the Math Olympiads. Not concerned about that.
 

Pedro123

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Not really. (Warning, weird useless flex alert).
I think of myself as a good math student (Accelerating the 4 unit course this year), and I haven't ever made it to the selection camp for maths olympiads. I have come close but never reached there. The skills needed for math olympiad are very different from school skills, because of the focus on problem-solving as opposed to just questions.
Majority of kids I know from work go to private schools, and they ALL get tutoring. Many of them don't accelerate but are still doing 3 unit concepts in year 10. A lot of them we don't hear about because of that English mark dragging them through the mud. Funny story - one kid in my brother's year from year 7 tricked the school into consistently putting him into ESL while he spoke perfect english. He aced the ESL exam, and even though he was second to another guy (They did the same subjects) in all his subjects, he got a 99.95 while the other one got 99.8. Partly this was due to external performance, but also because one of them could not handle english as a subject.

But then another debate comes up - do the skills learnt in english need to be learnt by everyone?
 

Drdusk

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I have come close but never reached there.
Case and point. There's not that many people compared to the state that would even come close to reaching the Olympiad level for Mathematics. Most are from the top 10 selective schools as it is so I don't see it as a problem.
 

InteGrand

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I think a lot of people are overanalyzing this and forgetting the fact that the NSW ATAR Calculation is moderated and scaled off the English mark.

Every single subject is compared off the English course to determine "difficulty", and to change it would mean UAC needing to rework the entire HSC to ATAR calculation, whilst maintaining fairness with other states. It could have been a completely arbirtray decision made decades ago, but I think that this is the most pragmatic reason for English being compulsory - simply that it is too difficult to change.
Couldn't they just as easily make (say) Maths the compulsory subject that ATAR is based on (if there is a need to have one common subject)?

In other words, saying we need a common subject doesn't explain why English (or any particular subject) needs to be the compulsory one.
 

Drdusk

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I think a lot of people are overanalyzing this and forgetting the fact that the NSW ATAR Calculation is moderated and scaled off the English mark.

Every single subject is compared off the English course to determine "difficulty", and to change it would mean UAC needing to rework the entire HSC to ATAR calculation, whilst maintaining fairness with other states. It could have been a completely arbirtray decision made decades ago, but I think that this is the most pragmatic reason for English being compulsory - simply that it is too difficult to change.
Yeah I’m aware of this but it doesn’t justify keeping it compulsory. Not a fan of this system
 

Time&moretime

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'Seriously - why the hell is English compulsory?' Because Hell is empty & all the devils are here. Tempest
 

Trebla

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I think a lot of people are overanalyzing this and forgetting the fact that the NSW ATAR Calculation is moderated and scaled off the English mark.

Every single subject is compared off the English course to determine "difficulty", and to change it would mean UAC needing to rework the entire HSC to ATAR calculation, whilst maintaining fairness with other states. It could have been a completely arbirtray decision made decades ago, but I think that this is the most pragmatic reason for English being compulsory - simply that it is too difficult to change.
This is not true.

Moderating of internal school assessment marks is based on external HSC marks within a subject. It looks at each school's internal marks and adjusts them based on their performance in the external HSC exam for that subject. There is no comparison between subjects at all in how it is done.

Scaling (used to calculate ATAR) is based on the average performance of a subject's cohort in all their other subjects, not just English. It just so happens that because English is compulsory for everyone that the scaling results of English turn out to be close to neutral. Scaling can still be done even if English wasn't compulsory.

As a simplistic illustrative example, if say out of 10,000 students in Chemistry 5,000 of them did Physics. If the average Chemistry mark of those 5,000 students (that did both Chemistry and Physics) is higher than the average of the 10,000 that did Chemistry - and there are equal marks in all other subjects (to keep things simple) - then Physics will scale more favourably than Chemistry. In reality, this starts getting more complicated once you introduce variability in multiple subjects, but the principle is the same.
 

totally_screwed

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OK bro. U are the dumbest person I have ever heard of in my entire life. Like fr, fuck off dude. U are soo dumb. First of all, if you think English should be compulsory, then you need to go and buy a fucking dildo, and shove it up your ass, because u are bent. Secondly, all your reasons are stoopid, because we learn the biggest bullshit I have ever seen in my entire life. If we learnt what you said, yeah english should be compulsory. But we don't. We learn dumbass stupid shit like Auden and dumb analysis, ok so fuck off. You are wrong. Enough said.
wtf is this cringe
 

jimmysmith560

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Hivaclibtibcharkwa said:
In which Year did English become compulsory? @jimmysmith560
This requires us to go back a little bit in time, specifically 28 years ago (I call this "Modern History - Module Genesis" haha). In 1994, a requirement was introduced called the Breadth of Study. The Breadth of Study included two units of English, one unit from the Maths, Science or Technology areas as well as one unit from the Humanities, Languages or Creative Arts areas.

In 2001, more than 64000 students sat the first HSC exams that are based on the current structure. This includes Extension subjects, VET subjects and standards-based reporting of marks. A compulsory two units of English subsequently replaced the Breadth of Study requirement.

What is unclear is whether English was compulsory prior to 1994. What is certain is that the number of units to be included was definitely not part of the requirement prior to 1976, which is when the unit structure was introduced. There are three conclusions and suggestions that can be made and contemplated:
  1. Alongside other compulsory subjects, English was made compulsory no later than 1994.
  2. As a standalone compulsory subject (i.e. following the replacement of the Breadth of Study requirement), English became compulsory in 2001.
  3. English may or may not have been compulsory prior to 1994.
I hope this helps! :D
 

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