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1j for the volvo? (1 Viewer)

loquasagacious

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Heres the situation:

As regulars may have figured I have a volvo, it goes alright but isn't exactly as fast as I'd like.

My father and I had been tossing around dropping a 200-series engine in, bolting a DOHC head and turbo from a 700 series etc. Most cost-effective way to do this would be to buy a 200 series donor car and salvage the 700-series parts from a wreckers.

Talking to a mate and via a connection he can lay hands on a front-cut with a 1j engine in it for $3.5k. He's seen one of these dropped into a 200-series volvo and given my cavernous engine bay it would fit in mine. I would probably need a new diff (preferably LSD). This would certainly transform the volvo into a stealthy street weapon. And I might be able to get such nicities as a/c and power steering out of the front-cut.

In both instances I would also look at lowering the suspension a couple of inches and my father could do the engineers certificates for me.

The dilemma is whether its worth it, option A would probably cost $2k or so and option B $4.5K or so. Both would be quick, B would be very quick - probably the quickest you could do for that money in any car (eg $5K=work+car).

Is it worthwhile to do this for a car that probably sees 100-200km a week, cost of petrol, etc..

So some questions:

What are peoples opinions?
Any idea fuel consumption on a 1j?
What about insurance for a car modded like this?
Any guesses at a market value for a ij volvo?

Cheers.
 

7th Sign

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any engine conversion usually make the car worth less on re sale...by a lot...

still would make a good sleeper.
 

petar13

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1j is a Supra engine, right? Personally I feel quite strongly about modifying cars, and prefer to keep engine transplants within the brand family.
I think the DOHC idea is excellent. I have thought about it long and hard, and with the help of http://forums.turbobricks.com/ have come up with the following things (over the last year or so) -

1. Get the head, camshafts, pulleys and assorted wiring from the 940/740 16v
1.5. Also get the crank from the 16vavler, as its a forged number
2. MegaSquirt it
3. Get some adjustable cam gears (available through turbobricks)
4. Custom exhaust manifold, or buy one from ProTurbo in Sweden
5. Some nice high flow injectors and heavy duty fuel rail, hybrid turbo,
... I could continue, but it's all at turbobricks. Personally, when I lift the hood, I want to see that Volvo logo on the DOHC valve cover.

Are you running an M46 of one of the AWs? You might want to swap that out for a Getrag entirely (available from BMW E28, E31). Or get yourself a new heavy duty clutch and an insane pressure plate. LSD is a nice idea - are you thinking aftermarket - like Quaife ($$$), or a stock one (was it a Dana?).

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry about the difference in speed. A well tuned DOHC turboed 2.3 can take you well into the 300kw mark. Very possibly more if you're prepared to go all out. 0-100 in mid 5's.

I honestly think fuel consumption should be the last thing on your mind :). I am guessing that they both would drink like crazy. I think the market value would be much improved for a DOHC conversion (maybe 10k, maybe more?), than a 1j. There are many brick fanatics in AUS that would love to own a DOHC turbo. Add to that the all of the common parts in the B23x engines.

I gotta go to work, so I can't write any more. But I think this should be a fun car either way.
 

Exeter

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holy crapola 1j in the volvo!

just a question and please dont take this offensively..why?!
if its to be unique then yeh thats alright
but if you are getting into serious motorsport then i dont think its a wise option. there are better conversions available for a well balanced car. i dont know much about volvo's (who really does! lol) but the 1jz fit better into a lot of the toyota models - why? because they are designed for it. good weight balance and sits relatively well without too much custom modifications to gearbox and engine mounts.

anyway, what Petar described is a good way to go about things..maybe in differnt order personally. i think you should sort out the engine/electronics/gearbox first and then worry about upgrading turbos, uprated injectors and bottom end of the engine

but hey, a 1jz with a 6sp getrag and 1/1.5/2way lsd in a volvo would be the first time i seen anything like that! keep us updated whatever you do


BTW Petar, what is "megasquirt"?
 

petar13

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The 5spd Getrag is quite cheap (especially from Castlemaine Rod Shop) - wheras the 6sp is extremely rare, and expensive.

Exeter, Megasquirt is an engine management system for DIYers. You don't need to pay thousands for a Haltech - but only 200 or so for a fully customizable system, programmable through a laptop. Gives you extreme flexibility (now also ignition, not just fuel), and the oppurtunity to use a huge array of sensors, whether it be stock or otherwise. Excellent system for those hard on cash, and big on motivation.

BTW, the 1j would be heavier engine than the 4 cylinder Volvo, which would seriously skew your handling. Many even comment on the difference in handling between 740 and 760 - so I think there's something there.

i dont know much about volvo's (who really does! lol)
I'm a Volvo nut. I think Kieran is too.
 

Exeter

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I'm a Volvo nut. I think Kieran is too.
Haha touche!

200 for megasquirt! Is it suitable for all engines? and who are some [good] tuners in sydney?
yeh, i think haltech/motec and all stand alone ecu's are a bit overpriced for normal street usage, i was probably going to use emanage - i found a really good tuner who does it the ol fashioned way. no dynos. street tune =)

6sp getrag FTW! that thing is unbreakable
 

loquasagacious

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7th sign: When the car is worth $500 or so I can't see an engine conversion making it worth less....

Petar: You are indeed a volvo nut, an even bigger one than me apparently. It looks like I'm going to have to do some research at turbo-bricks over the uni-break.

Do you have any idea of the height of the DOHC head? eg I know that by putting the internals from the B23 into the B20 you convert it to a B23 and in terms of keeping the job simple if the DOHC head cleared the hood I could look at keeping a vertical mount which would save on fabricating slant mounts for a B23.

In terms of being realistic though this would be a long term project and my thinking was if I acquired a B23 and started work on that (might not tell the landlord about an engine in the spare room :p) building that up and looking at a g/box and engine transplant maybe summer holidays. With the lowering and LSD occuring abit further again down the track. Such a time frame because of budgetry and time constraints.

I hadn't thought too much about g/box and diff yet though the getrag unit sounds good (what price from castlemaine?). Diff may well depend on what can be found and could even become a custom unit if I get really keen (and or dad is up for it).

And finally the million-dollar question how much (excluding labour) is your guestimate for the engine and transmission?

B23 would be acquired by purchasing a 200 series so say $800 (afterall I dont give a dam about paint, tyres, anything except the engine).

But what about the kit off the 940/740 any idea how much that would cost/how easy it would be to lay hands on? Would again the best bet be to acquire a complete car and strip it from that?

Anyways I must run work and all,

Cheers everybody for the advice and encouragement.
 

Exeter

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With regards to how much it will cost, source all the parts add them together, then add another $5g on top jsut in case if anything goes wrong (most of the time it will).

ANyway you should visit Toymods and have a look around there (in addition to turbobricks). Theres is good information there about everything Toyota.
 

petar13

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You are indeed a volvo nut, an even bigger one than me apparently. It looks like I'm going to have to do some research at turbo-bricks over the uni-break.
Definitely, there is loads. If you have trouble finding some things, I can direct you to them, but they virtually have EVERYTHING needed to do the DOHC conversion. A guy at OVLOV.com sells the tensioner needed. A timing belt is needed from a Hyundai Sonata V6 (with correct number of square teeth)

Do you have any idea of the height of the DOHC head? eg I know that by putting the internals from the B23 into the B20 you convert it to a B23 and in terms of keeping the job simple if the DOHC head cleared the hood I could look at keeping a vertical mount which would save on fabricating slant mounts for a B23.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it should clear the hood just fine – with valve cover and all. Standard mounts should be fine. You have a B20 (I think you mean B21)? If you plan on boosting (I didn’t quite catch if you’re talking NA or not), the B21 block has thicker walls, and could probably withstand higher pressures. By ‘swapping internals’ I am guessing you are also including boring. Then yes. The B234 head fits on any red block Volvo. Here’s a pic of a 16v in a 2 series. Belongs to a guy called Jesus.



The first shot warms your heart, doesn’t it? Just me, maybe ;).

In terms of being realistic though this would be a long term project and my thinking was if I acquired a B23 and started work on that (might not tell the landlord about an engine in the spare room :p) building that up and looking at a g/box and engine transplant maybe summer holidays. With the lowering and LSD occuring abit further again down the track. Such a time frame because of budgetry and time constraints.
Sounds like a good idea. If you want a reliable engine, you are probably going to have to make a number of trips to a machinist – so you’ll need a Volvo ‘greenbook’. I don’t know for sure where it can be found – but it has the sizes and clearances for every part in the engine – an invaluable tool for rebuilding. As to budgetry…well I’ll get to that.

I hadn't thought too much about g/box and diff yet though the getrag unit sounds good (what price from castlemaine?). Diff may well depend on what can be found and could even become a custom unit if I get really keen (and or dad is up for it).
You must have misunderstood me. Supra unit is available from Castlemaine, The Getrag is largely available from your regular Pick’n’Pull out of older BMWs. (However the 'Supra' unit is also a Getrag, but a different casing). Everything matches up quite nicely, except for a driveshaft that is a bit too short – so that needs to be machined. Since you already have an M46, much of what you need is there. Turbobricks has some excellent articles on the Supra gearbox and Getrag gearbox conversion. A guy in the UK even makes a full kit, including crossmembers, and so on for the Getrag. If you go for Supra, the tailshaft needs to be altered, as it’s too short – new crossmember too, but that’s easily enough fabricated.

And finally the million-dollar question how much (excluding labour) is your guestimate for the engine and transmission?

B23 would be acquired by purchasing a 200 series so say $800 (afterall I dont give a dam about paint, tyres, anything except the engine).
I hate making guesstimates like this. The rule of thumb is get all of the prices for labour and parts, and then multiply by 2. How far would you be going with the rebuild? New parts, honing, blueprinting, balancing? For a barebones rebuild, I would guess several hundred. An all-out rebuild, fully preparing it for upwards of 18psi boost would run you several thousand. Depends if you can get on good terms with the machinist (supply him with data he needs, make sure you know what he’s on about) you could significantly reduce that. A Getrag should be no more than $200 or so (maybe a bit more depending where you get it from) – this is second hand from an old Bimmer. A reconditioned Supra box from Castlemaine…? Hmmm. I simply can’t remember – maybe 400-500? I’d call them – they can even do the whole gearbox conversion for you (http://www.rodshop.com.au/gearboxes.htm). Total? I’d say $6000, minus the price of gearbox and engine. This is neither barebones, nor ‘all out’. It’s depressing, but this project will take you longer than a few months, and the money will be spread out over the period.

But what about the kit off the 940/740 any idea how much that would cost/how easy it would be to lay hands on? Would again the best bet be to acquire a complete car and strip it from that?
A complete car is going to turn out quite expensive. The last (fully functioning) 16v 740 I saw for sale was going for $6000. That price would undermine the whole project. Your best bet is to find a wrecked 16 valver. That would turn out the cheapest, but probably the rarest (so you will have to wait the longest). From there you should grab as much as you can – maybe the whole engine, so you can get the crankshaft, head, camshafts, sensors inc. wiring loom, you could even get the pistons (which I think are forged Mahle). Or once you do the rebuild you can order custom forged J&Rs which will run you $500 or so.
Or you can fly in the bare essentials from interstate (or intercontinental). Which is the head and camshafts. It’s all luck, I think – they pop up on eBay from time to time. Here’s the OVLOV site with the tensioner required. And the other site is a very general run down of all you need to do for the conversion (straight from TurboBricks).

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=30786&highlight=16v+differences
http://www.ovlov.net/page.php?page_name=tensioner

A couple of other things – is this going to be turbo, or not? Custom exhaust manifold, if yes, is also needed. Adding the B234 head will also make this an interference engine. So watch out – make sure the timing belt is changed regularly. You also need 4 fly cuts in the pistons, as they make contact with the valves at TDC. Any machine shop can do this. The plus side: this head flows infinitely better than the 8v and with its stock stainless steel valves is pretty ready to take boost from Step 1.
You will definitely need EMS. I recommend Megasquirt (MS). I think it’s best for this job. It’s actually around US$200 last time I checked (2 years ago) – so this may have changed. They have upgraded the system to MegaSquirt n’Spark (Fuel n’ Ignition) – so it’s even better value.
If you minimize squish by decking the block (distance between piston crown and block surface at TDC) you can greatly increase the amount of compression the engine can take without detonation. 10:1 with 18psi is entirely possible with good squish and a well calibrated EMS (you’ll need 98RON, though). I’d wager to say that the difference in kWs at 10.1 with 18 psi between a B23 with an 8v and a B23 with a 16v would be around 80kWs. And that’s a helluva difference to make up solely with boost.

Wow, this turned out longer than I thought. Good luck! There is a wealth of information regarding this, and SO much more than I can fit in one post. Go to Turbobricks. There are some real experts there (search for stealthfti’s posts). I’m just a n00b at this.
 
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petar13

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200 for megasquirt! Is it suitable for all engines? and who are some [good] tuners in sydney?
yeh, i think haltech/motec and all stand alone ecu's are a bit overpriced for normal street usage, i was probably going to use emanage - i found a really good tuner who does it the ol fashioned way. no dynos. street tune =)
Heh. Don't take that $200 at face value - I was speaking in US$, and that was a couple of years back. But it shouldn't be too much more. A Haltech E11 is well over 2 grand, on the other hand. MegaSquirt is indeed suitable for all cars. You can even save on price by purchasing the components separately and soldering them yourself (not a big deal). However, you do all of the programming yourself, with a laptop in the garage.

Very few tuners would go near it with a ten foot pole. Nevertheless, it is exhilarating to get the car to start for the first time, however you can find yourself at the other side of the emotional spectrum when you can't even crank the thing, due to EMS settings being way off. I believe the new system has a 'self diagnostic' mode, where it can get some of its own values, just to get the car running, and then you can fine tune.

The flexibility is immense (not as much as a Haltech, granted) - but you can play around with it to achieve factory spec smooth idle on an overcammed high boost monster. It's not easy, however you save thousands instead of buying Haltech/MoTeC/Autronic and then the many, many hours (and $$$) it takes a tuner to get it running well. Don't get me wrong, though - Haltech is the best. There's no question. It has more air/fuel/ignition adjustment points per 1000rpm than any other EMS.

It seems you're interested in this sort of stuff, Exeter. For a streetable machine with mild modifications, all you might need is something like this - http://www.bdtperformance.com.au/unichip.asp

6sp getrag FTW! that thing is unbreakable
And as rare as hens' teeth :D.
 

loquasagacious

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Well having spent too much time reading at turbobricks and not enough (indeed any) studying I have decided that this is quite doable and calls for:

93+ B230FT block
89-90,91-92 16v Head
Misc components from these two donor engines
Adjustable cam gears
Megasquirt ($372 shipped to my place from the states, requires assembly though)
Custom exhaust manifold (quee brother and welding skillz)

Result a DOHC 2.3L 16v turbocharged engine in an old school volvo.

Drive through a getrag/supra box as yet unknown diff (my guess is almost any diff could be made to fit which opens a wealth of possibilities and ratios).

Plan:

Lay hands on B230FT bottom end
Dissemble have cleaned, O-ringed and drilled for oil return line.
Have con-rods balanced

Lay hands on B234 head and other components
Have head cleaned, checked, ported and polished.
Machine B230 pistons to B234 spec and have them balanced
Have crank balanced

Assemble engine.
Mount upgraded injectors and fuel rail.

Now its off to Sydney with engine and car.

Mate getrag/supra to engine
Mount engine/tranny in car (hoping for a vertical mount (placing engine on existing mounts).
Mount turbo and intercooler.
Fit 2.5" exhaust.
Upgrade fuel pump.
Megasquirt it.
Shorter stiffer springs (if time and budget allow).
New cluster pod and speedo calibration
Engineers certificate (hoping not to need brake work to pass).

Return to Canberra.

LSD.
Remaining suspension work.
Racing bucket.
And maybe look at a respray down the track.

I have to fine tune costing for this, consult more extensively with my father and possibly Anthony Hyde (eminent volvo expert who seems to be based at the ANU...).

Though the biggest delay by far will be finding the engines to start work on, I'll have to keep eyes peeled at wreckers and maybe start frequenting insurance auctions (and praying for some rear-ended volvos - desperate measures would be making some:p).
 

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Sounds good, I see you're going for the piston oil squirters. Although if you find a good pre-93 block, I doubt you'll lose out in the long run.

Thanks for correcting me on the MegaSquirt issue, it's been a while since I was looking at those prices. Are you going to get some ignition/fuel maps premade? Or will you be putting in the hard yards one on one with the Volvo?

Also the porting and polishing of the head is probably not going to be very cost effective - might be more worthwhile spending that money on lightening the flywheel. The head already flows infinitely better than the 8v.

Why don't you schedule a before and after dyno run, just to affirm all the work that's going to go into this.

Will you be using new con rods? Or just redoing the old ones? B230 crank or B234 crank? Olde turbo, new turbo, reconditioned unit...? Will you be going custom with the fuel rail? Have you thought about squish? I think there wass a good discussion on squish and swirl on the forum.

I am very interested in what you encounter along the way in this. Post on this page (or at turbobricks) from time to time, so people can get a better idea of what's going on. BTW, what's YOUR appraisal of time and budget for this project?

Good luck.
 

loquasagacious

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Correct the 93+ is for the oil squirters (and less kms) this is the umptimum however its going to depend on availability alot, I may have to settle for an older block etc.

I'll look at a dyno run some time in the near future, though may leave that till closer to the swap (see time frame below).

As far as megasquirt goes I havn't really looked into it that much as yet, it's going to depend on prices etc. If I can get some pre-made ones (cheap or free) and then tweak those then that may save some time (and stress) which could be important as I want to minimise time off the road.

Using old con-rods from the B230, crank from the B234 (it is forged however has identical dimensions to the B230 crank and will drop in).

Turbo is up in the air, a new one will almost certainly be out of the price range so I will be keeping eyes peeled for a cheap re-con one and also scouring wreckers for suitable ones which I could re-con myself.

I havn't really thought about the fuel-rail or squish yet.

I will be working up a more detailed plan and posting on turbobricks and hopefully running updates on there and anything particularly exciting here as well eg "the beast lives!"

Its hard to put a number on the price as so much of it is going to be driven by the prices I can get on the block and head so here is very much a ball park figure and includes lots of rounding, guessing etc: Block, etc = $500, Head etc = $500, Megasquirt+wiring = $500, Turbo, etc $500, Gearbox = $500, Machining, etc =$500 (a stab in the dark), Exhaust = $500 (my gut suggests that this could be cut if my brother and I did it as opposed to a shop), Fuel pump, rail, injectors =$500, Goodies misc = $500, Just plain misc pains in the arse =$500.

Which comes to $5000 which doesn't seem too bad. Though given that alot of those numbers (indeed many to most) are complete guesstimates I'm not going to swear by the accuracy. I think some of my guesses may be too high, others could be too high because I'm pulling numbers from my arse.

eg:
Depending on luck etc the block and head could be less.
The turbo very much depends on what kind of quality can be found at a wreckers and for how much.
The exhaust is based on a shop price I suspect materials for less and brother for free.
I have a suspiscion that the fuel pump, rail, injectors will be more.
Goodies may be higher or lower depending on the budget.
Machining I'm guessing completely (though am including balancing, cleaning, etc).
Miscellaneous may balloon as such things do....

So in sum my very rough guestimate is $5000.

Which for a DOHC 2.3L, 16v, turbo, RWD sounds good and my gut suggests would be tricky to beat new (and who can put a value on the uniqueness of the completed car; only a handful in the world[well outside of sweden], none I know of in Australia).

As far as a timeframe goes again dictated alot by the procurement of a block and head. Having said this my hope is for a rough six month time frame for the main phase.

That is doing the engine and other prep-work through second semester and then shifting to Sydney over the christmas break. Where I will enlist the support of my father, two brothers (mechanical engineer and mechanically minded respectively) and the equipment/tools my father has that I simply don't have access to nor is sensible for me to buy.

The final stage would then likely occur over the next year, misc interior work, installing bucket(s) sometime in first semester (hopefully pick up some cheap 2nd hand ones), LSD over easter or mid-year uni break (back to Sydney for that).

And think about a re-spray over the 07 christmas holidays (again a back to Sydney task) also this gives me loads of time to procrastinate/muse over paint.
 

loquasagacious

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Schoolies_2004 said:
It would be smart to get the brakes upgraded if your adding alot of power ;)
Volvo brakes are already awesome hence the avoidance of this as possibly unecessary...

Having said this if there is a need to upgrade then i will keep the rears stock and bang larger volvo calipers from a newer volvo on and maybe some slotted ventilated rotors.
 

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You know, if your brother can help you make a header, he should have no trouble making up a fuel rail. A heavy duty pipe could withstand many, many times times the pressure of a regular Volvo unit. Again, as you sound like you have the facilities for some simple fabrication to be done at home, I think you could reduce the price of the gearbox by around 100 (for crossmember and tailshaft).
I have the nasty feeling, though that machining could be double that (also including driveshaft). Did you have a look at Aspirator's engine build up? He had half his machining done for free, and still had problems meeting his prediction.
And don't forget the $200 tensioner from OVLOV. No way you can hook up the timing belt otherwise.

You sound in good stead with this project.

Having said this if there is a need to upgrade then i will keep the rears stock and bang larger volvo calipers from a newer volvo on and maybe some slotted ventilated rotors.
Were you thinking from an S60R? :D
That $2k price tag really knocked me flat, though. However Wilwood makes some good performance brakes, near standard of Brembo, but not the price tag.
 

loquasagacious

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I really have no idea whats involved in fabricating a fuel rail (or indeed much at all about the fuel side of things) so thats probably my vaguest area and one I'll have to rely on others with more knowledge (and of course learn myself). I'm afraid I've underestimated the cost of injectors, fuel rail and fuel pump...

Machining is again an area I'm not too sure on so really I'm making a huge guestimate on what sort of hours are involved. Having said that I think the machining needed is minimal eg the only actual machining needed is the pistons, block and head flattened if needed and for the gearbox. The rest is balancing of cranck, con rods, driveshaft for which i'm guessing the cost is minimal (comparitively speaking).

As far as the gearbox work goes i'd have to know more exactly what doing the tailshaft entailed, a cross member sounds eminantly doable not so sure about the tailshaft...

As far as the tensioner I'm interested in trying the other options which seem <$50...

Whilst S60R calipers would be awesome they are somewhat out of my price range I would more be thinking 740/940 brakes (engineering rule of thumb new engine in old car then use brakes from the donor car and he ticks the box no questions asked) which I could acquire from a wrecker for <$100 ea. Recondition them and fit them. As far as rotors thats going to depend on the stud pattern eg I may be able to pick up larger falcodore rotors for <$100 ea if the stud pattern matches up. Or I could have mine slotted. I may look into the wilwood option though.
 

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so you're saying the engine can't fit unless you make adjustments to the bay? why not get some other engine then? RB25/26 or SR20?
 

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