Biden Leaving Afghanistan discussion (1 Viewer)

Dulu

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Biden has just left Afghanistan and now China is thinking about attacking Taiwan I cannot believe a president could do something so stupid they announced the fact that they were leaving in advanced and now he is blaming trump personally I think leaving Afghanistan was a terrible idea it could lead to future fighting and war Biden is truely incompetent and unfit for presidency if he is acting like this Vladamir Putin would never do such a thing have opened this thread to see what you people think about the current situation
 

O01x

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They wasted a trillion dollars in Afghanistan by invading it, the primary aim was to find Bin Laden, who wasn't even in Afghanistan. They were wasting taxpayers money and sending thousands of men to die for a lost cause, so eventually they had to leave whether it'd be 10 years later or now, they chose to do it recently.
I agree with Biden, the Afghanistan government didn't cooperate. You can give them everything, latest military hardware and thousands of trained soldiers, however you can't give them the will to fight and stand up for their own country, and relying on a foreign power to do your dirty work is a waste of time and shows a lack of determination. The government of Afghanistan was corrupt anyways; instead of fighting the Taliban, most of the government ran off to neighboring countries with as much cash as they could have. Taliban or not the country would have been screwed anyways, especially due to corruption from the previous government.
 
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Trebla

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Unfortunately, for the US it’s a choice between horrible options either way to get out of this hole that they dug themselves into. Either being stuck in this state of “forever war” or withdraw (which they inevitably have to do at some point it was just a matter of when). You’re kidding yourself if you really think the whole independent democratic government transformation was going to sustainably work.

For me it was kind of a tragic inevitability, as a result of the US overstaying particularly after Bin Laden was found (which was the original reason why they invaded in the first place). I don’t think this has anything to do with one president (which is quite frankly just petty politics) but the way the US government as a whole has more generally treated issues in the Middle East.
 

Drdusk

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They wasted a trillion dollars in Afghanistan by invading it, the primary aim was to find Bin Laden, who wasn't even in Afghanistan. They were wasting taxpayers money and sending thousands of men to die for a lost cause, so eventually they had to leave whether it'd be 10 years later or now, they chose to do it sooner.
He was in Afghanistan, however he fled to pakistan during the invasion period.
 

stressedadfff

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I agree, but I'm baffled that people didn't expect this from biden, history always repeats itself. He knows what he is doing, he is a war criminal. Its sad that people are blindsided with all their bs talk that they dont see there true characters. The media kept pushing biden and people fell for it. It hasnt even been a year! The fact he hasn't been impeached yet is crazy.
the guy has dementia tf is he leading the country for
 

Drdusk

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Unfortunately, for the US it’s a choice between horrible options either way to get out of this hole that they dug themselves into. Either being stuck in this state of “forever war” or withdraw (which they inevitably have to do at some point it was just a matter of when). You’re kidding yourself if you really think the whole independent democratic government transformation was going to sustainably work.

For me it was kind of a tragic inevitability, as a result of the US overstaying particularly after Bin Laden was found (which was the original reason why they invaded in the first place). I don’t think this has anything to do with one president (which is quite frankly just petty politics) but the way the US government as a whole has treated issues in the Middle East.
Yeah I agree with this.

Afghanistan is too remote and disconnected for it to transform into an american like democracy in 20 years. The taliban just had to wait it out until America no longer had the political will to stay.

They did pull out in an irresponsible way though, at the very least evacuate the people that helped you and then leave. They just packed up and left and are now evacuating afghans that helped basically after the taliban took over which is highly irresponsible.
 

blyatman

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Please keep in mind that we are not privy to the same sources information (such as intelligence reports, understanding of local and geopolitical context) and experience that leaders have. All this "they should have done this or that" is meaningless and frankly naive, as you are seeing the situation in a black and white lense with the benefit of hindsight and without any information regarding the context under which decisions were made.

Trump negotiated the US pullout, having made a deal with the Taliban that they would leave the country as long as the Taliban provided assurances that the Afghanistan would not be a terrorist breeding ground as it was before 911. Biden merely sped up the process by a year. Despite 20 yrs of funding and training the Afghan military, they quickly collapsed. Based on this, analysts have said that it unlikely would have made a difference if they pulled out this year, next year, or in another 5 years.

It is hard to blame the US invasion considering the context under which it happened (compared to say, the 2003 Iraq war). The US had just suffered the worst terrorist attack on its soil. As noted above, it was a lose-lose situation from the get go, but the US really had no choice but to respond. What message would it send to the American people if they did not retaliate? The Taliban harboured high value AQ targets in Afghanistan, so the US went in. With the Taliban removed, there needed to be a replacement to avoid a power vacuum and a collapse back into the warlord tribalism that had plagued Afghanistan for so long, so the US assisted in that effort, and it's probably one of the primary reasons why they stayed as long as they did. Based on what happened over the last week, it's probably fair to say that the collapse would have happened whether the US left 1 year after the invasion or 30 years after. They have to leave at some point, and it just so happened to be now.
 
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enoilgam

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I don't think Biden is totally to blame here, it's a complete failure of US Policy and each of the four Presidents (Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) share responsibility. They were naïve to think that they could change a country with a vastly different culture and set of social norms

At the end of the day, as tragic as the scenes are in Afghanistan, I believe that it is the will of the people. The Taliban aren't some fringe group, with a small membership base of outcasts. They are a large, well funded organisation who easily took over a country that had a well trained and equipped army (who capitulated very quickly). That tells me that the Afghan government had nowhere near the commitment, backing and support of the Taliban in Afghanistan. This is a very controversial view, but Ive never really supported the narrative that extremists represented a minority in the Islamic world. The truth is, whilst active extremists themselves are a minority (i.e. Terrorists), they are supported or enabled by the majority. I have nothing against Islam as a religion, I think it has great values and ideals and is no more inherently violent than say Christianity. But it has a significant culture problem amongst its adherents, who insist on sticking to outdated behaviours and norms which are detrimental to their advancement as a people. Hence why the Islamic world is constantly in a state of perpetual violence. However, the people of Afghanistan have spoke and they clearly want a return to Islamic extremism. Im all for people having what they want, just as long as it isn't exported to the Western world.

To add to the above, I believe the US also has a significant culture problem with violence, so Im by no means targeting one group. I just call a spade a spade.
 

blyatman

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Great opinion piece illustrates just how complex the Taliban relationships are in Afghanistan:
 
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blyatman

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I don't think Biden is totally to blame here, it's a complete failure of US Policy and each of the four Presidents (Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) share responsibility. They were naïve to think that they could change a country with a vastly different culture and set of social norms

At the end of the day, as tragic as the scenes are in Afghanistan, I believe that it is the will of the people. The Taliban aren't some fringe group, with a small membership base of outcasts. They are a large, well funded organisation who easily took over a country that had a well trained and equipped army (who capitulated very quickly). That tells me that the Afghan government had nowhere near the commitment, backing and support of the Taliban in Afghanistan. This is a very controversial view, but Ive never really supported the narrative that extremists represented a minority in the Islamic world. The truth is, whilst active extremists themselves are a minority (i.e. Terrorists), they are supported or enabled by the majority. I have nothing against Islam as a religion, I think it has great values and ideals and is no more inherently violent than say Christianity. But it has a significant culture problem amongst its adherents, who insist on sticking to outdated behaviours and norms which are detrimental to their advancement as a people. Hence why the Islamic world is constantly in a state of perpetual violence. However, the people of Afghanistan have spoke and they clearly want a return to Islamic extremism. Im all for people having what they want, just as long as it isn't exported to the Western world.

To add to the above, I believe the US also has a significant culture problem with violence, so Im by no means targeting one group. I just call a spade a spade.
I don't think they it's necessarily the will of the people. The Taliban were well funded and supported from nation states like Pakistan, rather than from the local population. The local population don't have much of a say of what happens when a well-funded militia group rolls into town. In terms of backing and support, you can't really compare an organized military fighting force with guerilla warfare. As shown throughout history, national armies are often at a disadvantage when fighting non-state actors utilising guerilla tactics. Just because the guerilla force wins does not mean that they necessarily had more backing and support. Now, I'm not saying that the Taliban aren't supported by the will of the people - they may very well be, I have no idea. I'm just saying you can't infer that from looking at the macrosopic picture because the ground situation is incredibly complex, as there's so many more variables at play.
 
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SylviaB

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lol who cares

once the US was already there, what else could they have done? If the men of afghanistan were truly opposed to taliban rule they could have stopped it but you can't help people who won't help themselves or see themselves not in need of help. I feel bad for all the women and children who will be raped we can't police the entire world.
 

Dulu

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I don't think Biden is totally to blame here, it's a complete failure of US Policy and each of the four Presidents (Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) share responsibility. They were naïve to think that they could change a country with a vastly different culture and set of social norms

At the end of the day, as tragic as the scenes are in Afghanistan, I believe that it is the will of the people. The Taliban aren't some fringe group, with a small membership base of outcasts. They are a large, well funded organisation who easily took over a country that had a well trained and equipped army (who capitulated very quickly). That tells me that the Afghan government had nowhere near the commitment, backing and support of the Taliban in Afghanistan. This is a very controversial view, but Ive never really supported the narrative that extremists represented a minority in the Islamic world. The truth is, whilst active extremists themselves are a minority (i.e. Terrorists), they are supported or enabled by the majority. I have nothing against Islam as a religion, I think it has great values and ideals and is no more inherently violent than say Christianity. But it has a significant culture problem amongst its adherents, who insist on sticking to outdated behaviours and norms which are detrimental to their advancement as a people. Hence why the Islamic world is constantly in a state of perpetual violence. However, the people of Afghanistan have spoke and they clearly want a return to Islamic extremism. Im all for people having what they want, just as long as it isn't exported to the Western world.

To add to the above, I believe the US also has a significant culture problem with violence, so Im by no means targeting one group. I just call a spade a spade.
I agree Biden isn’t completely to blame but the way he did take us force out of Afghanistan by announcing the date they were hoping to be gone by was a terrible idea and he is clearly unfit for presidency by the way he acts like forgetting things randomly and ranting
 

blyatman

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I agree Biden isn’t completely to blame but the way he did take us force out of Afghanistan by announcing the date they were hoping to be gone by was a terrible idea and he is clearly unfit for presidency by the way he acts like forgetting things randomly and ranting
I don't see how him announcing a pull out date is a terrible idea. It's just announcing a target date to drawdown US forces so it doesn't get prolonged, nothing unusual by any standard. Do you think Trump was fit for the presidency? Legitimate question.
 

Life'sHard

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This pull out kinda looks the same as what the US did with Vietnam. Shit will probably work itself out.
 

Drdusk

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I don't think they it's necessarily the will of the people. The Taliban were well funded and supported from nation states like Pakistan, rather than from the local population. The local population don't have much of a say of what happens when a well-funded militia group rolls into town. In terms of backing and support, you can't really compare an organized military fighting force with guerilla warfare. As shown throughout history, national armies are often at a disadvantage when fighting non-state actors utilising guerilla tactics. Just because the guerilla force wins does not mean that they necessarily had more backing and support. Now, I'm not saying that the Taliban aren't supported by the will of the people - they may very well be, I have no idea. I'm just saying you can't infer that from looking at the macrosopic picture because the ground situation is incredibly complex, as there's so many more variables at play.
I think it's inaccurate to say a military fighting force doesn't do well in guerilla warfare, one only needs to look at the very large disparity between casualty numbers, and actually when America first invaded they look over 90% of Taliban territory very quickly with a large chunk of them fleeing to Pakistan. Problem is as they realized soon enough, when they pull troops out the Taliban would just come right back. This whole thing was a major diplomatic failure not a military one in terms of America itself. I do agree about the Pakistan thing, even though I obviously don't know of any hard evidence that Pakistan directly funds The Taliban I think it's a very high probability that they do.

lol who cares

once the US was already there, what else could they have done? If the men of afghanistan were truly opposed to taliban rule they could have stopped it but you can't help people who won't help themselves or see themselves not in need of help. I feel bad for all the women and children who will be raped we can't police the entire world.
I don't like making this argument because you don't know what you'd do in a war situation until you've been in one. Some people are prepared to fight and die, some people don't want to fight and just want to leave. I personally think only a small minority of people in general have what it takes to be a war fighter and so I do not like to blame people who just want to get out because probably most if not a lot of us would do the same thing, unless of course there was conscription in which case you're just forced into it.
 

blyatman

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I think it's inaccurate to say a military fighting force doesn't do well in guerilla warfare, one only needs to look at the very large disparity between casualty numbers, and actually when America first invaded they look over 90% of Taliban territory very quickly with a large chunk of them fleeing to Pakistan. Problem is as they realized soon enough, when they pull troops out the Taliban would just come right back. This whole thing was a major diplomatic failure not a military one in terms of America itself. I do agree about the Pakistan thing, even though I obviously don't know of any hard evidence that Pakistan directly funds The Taliban I think it's a very high probability that they do.
Most countries, including the US, do not do well in guerilla warfare. Yes, most of the Taliban was driven out to Pakistan, but a lot of them still remained in the country. That's because they were fighting insurgents, and insurgencies are extremely difficult to deal with - you're fighting an enemy who you can't see and is hiding within the general population, so you can't simply bomb them out of existence like you would with a conventional fighting force. The enemy takes pot shots at you, planting IEDs on the side of the road, while patrolling troops need to go door to door and second-guess every civilian holding a mobile phone. The US got absolutely hammered in Vietnam from guerilla tactics, and Afghanistan was no different, so it is definitely a huge military issue (not saying that policy didn't play an equally important part). Keep in mind that this is only 10yrs after the fall of the iron curtain. Prior to 911, terrorism was never an issue, and this has implications in terms of the type of technology the US military funds. The military invested in technologies that allowed them to fight a war with another nation state, not a guerilla force. A billion dollar stealth bomber has no use when you're dealing with an insurgency, and you're dropping $100,000 bombs to destroy a cache of AK-47s. Stealth fighter jets aren't really useful when the enemy has no air force. The US were simply not equipped for this type of battle. It's a big reason why the US is currently playing catchup with China and Russia in hypersonic weapons - as the sole superpower after 911, the US did not have a need to invest in such technologies, and chose to focus on the issue at hand: counter-insurgency.

The US would undisputedly crush any nation state in open conventional warfare. However, they (along with every other country) struggle to deal with non-state actors employing guerilla tactics. It is extremely difficult to beat an enemy you can't see.
 
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