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Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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dan964

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Now this question is more to address your faith, we believe Jesus resurrected on the third day overcoming death, the same Man who healed the blind man with the mud from the ground John 9, the same Man who breathed on his disciples to give the Holy Spirit John 20 ,ponder on that, does that sound familiar?

When God made man from the dust of the earth Genesis 2 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

Think about the act of creation in multiplying loaves and fishes or transforming water into fine wine.

God is closer than we think.
I do believe the Bible is historical (e.g. I personally believe in a literal Adam and Eve), however it is a misreading of Genesis to necessitate it was 6 days, its textual form is different from the rest of Genesis.

And you don't have to hold to a young earth creationism to affirm the truthfulness and the inerrancy of Scripture.

Regarding the holy fire, its not just Wikipedia mind you, I just copied that because it has the citations in place of the actual sources, I still stand by what I posted before. The testimony of people within the church, is that this miracle is at best naturally occured, or is actually done with an actual lighter.

Of course your church would dismiss such claims to the contrary.

Another source:

Victoria Clark recounts a conversation she had with Orthodox Bishop Theophanis in which she asked about the miracle. He replied: “In this ceremony we are offering created fire and from it comes uncreated light, by the grace of the Holy Spirit…before the ceremony begins, a kantila – a little oil lamp – is placed, already lit, on the tomb. The patriarch lights his candle from it while he says a special prayer.”

Bishop Theophanis likens the miracle to Holy Communion when the bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation/ metousiosis). The natural is transformed into the supernatural. In his mind the Holy Fire really is a miraculous fire because the prayer has changed it from ordinary fire to Holy Fire.

But this is definitely not the official position of the Orthodox Church. The official website for the Patriarch of Jerusalem states that “he places a piece of cotton on the Holy Tomb and miraculously it lights up. With it the Patriarch lights the candles and exits the Holy Edicule”.

If Bishop Theophanis’ version is to be accepted then there is no actual miracle. The flame does not appear. The candles do not light themselves and the pilgrims waiting outside the tomb are gullible and naïve. The Holy Fire is nothing more than an ordinary flame and a special prayer. If this is true then the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church is deliberately misleading the faithful.
 

jimmysmith560

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I honestly don't see the need to debate the occurrence/accuracy of a miracle in such depth. It really is quite a minor detail. If this were the sole issue we are facing, the world would be in a much better place today. The issue Christianity is facing today is much more complex than a mere miracle.

Regardless, I do believe that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are closer to the Truth than Protestant and non-Orthodox/Catholic denominations in general.
 
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I do believe the Bible is historical (e.g. I personally believe in a literal Adam and Eve), however it is a misreading of Genesis to necessitate it was 6 days, its textual form is different from the rest of Genesis.

And you don't have to hold to a young earth creationism to affirm the truthfulness and the inerrancy of Scripture.

Regarding the holy fire, its not just Wikipedia mind you, I just copied that because it has the citations in place of the actual sources, I still stand by what I posted before. The testimony of people within the church, is that this miracle is at best naturally occured, or is actually done with an actual lighter.

Of course your church would dismiss such claims to the contrary.

Another source:

Victoria Clark recounts a conversation she had with Orthodox Bishop Theophanis in which she asked about the miracle. He replied: “In this ceremony we are offering created fire and from it comes uncreated light, by the grace of the Holy Spirit…before the ceremony begins, a kantila – a little oil lamp – is placed, already lit, on the tomb. The patriarch lights his candle from it while he says a special prayer.”

Bishop Theophanis likens the miracle to Holy Communion when the bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation/ metousiosis). The natural is transformed into the supernatural. In his mind the Holy Fire really is a miraculous fire because the prayer has changed it from ordinary fire to Holy Fire.

But this is definitely not the official position of the Orthodox Church. The official website for the Patriarch of Jerusalem states that “he places a piece of cotton on the Holy Tomb and miraculously it lights up. With it the Patriarch lights the candles and exits the Holy Edicule”.

If Bishop Theophanis’ version is to be accepted then there is no actual miracle. The flame does not appear. The candles do not light themselves and the pilgrims waiting outside the tomb are gullible and naïve. The Holy Fire is nothing more than an ordinary flame and a special prayer. If this is true then the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church is deliberately misleading the faithful.
There is literal video evidence and eye witness testimonies to fires lighting by themselves, if you had read the article you would have known, and its not just this miracle, the orthodox church is the church of Christ the church the the apostles started, so we have plenty of monks that still perform miracles where if you had watched the channel I linked you would see. How can you say this is an ordinary fire, it is a fire that DOES NOT BURN which is quite miraculous especially done after a pray so why then do you dispute it, there are Israeli police officers who make sure there are materials that can be used to ignite a fire on the Patriarch and they seal the tomb the previous night before he enters it, to make sure there is no mishandling. I see your passionate about Jesus and I am very happy about that but please recognise that your church started in the 1500's which is very far from the time of Christ, I understand you spilt from the catholics due to corruption but do not accuse the orthodox church of doing so too, as we have stuck with true teachings of Christ and do not dare change or alter it. Much love brother

 
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Is it fair I make the assumption that you also believe Holy Communion is just a act of remembrance, again I will state the apostles that received the Holy Fire from Pentecost are the ones that started the church, St Peter received the keys of the church from Jesus, just like when the jews used to wash away the sins of the people with animal blood it wasn't just an act it was an actual intercession, the Holy Spirit still lives with us for God does not forget his people. Please do not take offence, I tell you this because I love you
 
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Drdusk

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As a Christian and a mathematician, while I might question things like species-to-species evolution (which isn't actually what Darwin was on about anyways), the age of the Earth being old is no issue for me.

And on whether humans came from apes or even shared a common ancestor with chimps. The jury is still out on that one.
I mean this is fair enough and I don’t know the extent of what you believe in. I’m also no expert on Christianity but if a somewhat lack of science here is enough reason to doubt this claim then since there is zero scientific evidence for how someone would walk on water, rise from the dead, get pregnant by a spirit etc, these claims should also be heavily scrutinised and doubted by Christians who make that argument. It also should be taken into consideration that these claims completely break our understanding of science with no scientific evidence to back them up unlike the common ancestor thing which at least has some actual ground. Not sure if you 100% believe in the miracles that I mentioned above but I don’t know if you can be a Christian whose open to the idea that these claims in the bible may be false, which is hypocritical.
 
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HAHA nice! Yeah the majority of Lebanese Christians are Maronite. I'm originally from Syria, although I was born and lived a significant part of my life in Lebanon before coming to Australia.
woww thats so cool do you attend a greek orthodox church now or do you attend an arabic speaking orthodox church.
 

dan964

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I mean this is fair enough and I don’t know the extent of what you believe in.
I’m also no expert on Christianity but if a lack of science here is enough reason to doubt this claim then since there is zero scientific evidence for how someone would walk on water, rise from the dead, get pregnant by a spirit etc, these claims should also be heavily scrutinised and doubted by Christians who make that argument. It also should be taken into consideration that these claims completely break our understanding of science with no scientific evidence to back them up unlike the common ancestor thing which at least has some actual ground. Not sure if you 100% believe in the miracles that I mentioned above but I don’t know if you can be a Christian whose open to the idea that these claims in the bible may be false, which is hypocritical.
You do realise I am not rejecting it solely on the basis of incomplete evidence. What I was suggesting is that as I see, some of evolution theory is an argument from ignorance not evidence; but more importantly than even within the scientific community, the explanation of origin of the human species has varied due to different evidences (see the link referred to in the last post as an example).

Secondly, I don't think an understanding of the world, is limited to what can be understood via science.
I'm not limited therefore to scientific evidence to determine what is true. Historical evidence, literary evidence, correspondence and consistency, legal evidence, testimony all can be weighed up.

Scientific evidence is not the primary metric used to determine what is true or false.

there is zero scientific evidence for how someone would walk on water, rise from the dead, get pregnant by a spirit etc, these claims should also be heavily scrutinised and doubted by Christians who make that argument.
That's because miracles are not necessarily scientific, and therefore may defy scientific explanation. The writings of the Bible have been analysed and mine for over 2 millennia.
 

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