Muslim headscarves (2 Viewers)

[Generator]

For equality, ban the hijab in public schools

Given that the previous discussion proved to be quite interesting, I thought that some may welcome another thread in order to allow the debate to continue.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Interesting article --

It is largely Muslim men who are insisting that "their" girls and young women will be upset, concerned or made fearful by the banning of the hijab from public schools. But given such leaders are rarely democratically elected, little less by a voting base that includes women, how can we know whose interests they really represent? This seems a particularly pertinent worry in light of the third largest Muslim organisation, the Union of Islamic Organisations in France, supporting the ban and the insistence of some Muslim women that the hijab is an inescapably oppressive garment that both perpetuates antiquated notions of female "purity" and helplessness, and insults the moral agency of men (who at the sight of any part of any female's body have no recourse but rape).

Why the hijab is silly, which I agree with.

But arguably what matters most in assessing the need for an Australian ban is the way Australian Muslims and non-Muslims understand the hijab. My impression is that, rightly or wrongly, many Australians see the scarf as a symbol of the gender-based oppression women suffer in many non-Western countries, and thus a challenge to the credo of gender equity preached and largely practised in Australian public schools.

Why the hijab should be banned, which I disagree with.

 

[spell check]

maybe they should just ban religion entirely

even if the hijab is a bad thing, which many religious traditions are, banning it because it is supposedly a symbol of muslim defiance of some sort of australian way of life is a bad idea

 

[Raginsheep]

Ban it but only if you ban all other religious garments as well.

What people forget is that for a good while, Australians were educated by women wearing similar forms of clothing (ie headscarves) and no one complained about it; my 1st principal at primary school wore one. Surely people aren't suggesting that nuns wear what they wear because its a sign of their rebellion aginst Australian values?

 

[soha]

i say wtf
why ban it?
why not get the fuck over and let us live our lives in peace
its not effecting anyone
please tell me how hejab effects you?

 

[transcendent]

I really don't have a problem with it, I really don't see why there's a problem with it and banning it isn't helping the situation.

 

[soha]

I really don't have a problem with it, I really don't see why there's a problem with it and banning it isn't helping the situation.

well exactly
why ban it?..i dont understand
i cnat comprehend why we should even be considering it
why its even an issue?
i really dont know.

 

[Minai]

Mmm...for equality...

Yes nuns, if muslim women/girls cannot wear headscarves (assuming it'll extend past schools), we must ban nuns from wearing whatever it is they wear on their head. Oh and hindi men should not wear their turbans too. What about the jewish and their little "hat" thing? (sorry I don't know its name).

I mean I guess I agree with the female oppression argument to an extent, but still

 

[nwatts]

I say it's an argument that can never be resolved:

- If it is banned we'll have Muslim leaders up-in-arms about how this is imposing upon their religious practicies. It will also fuel secular commentators to call for bans upon other religious garments (as Raginsheep, Minai suggested) which is again an imposition on religious rights.
- If it is not banned we'll still have feminist groups angry about its symbolic representation of gender oppression, like what is seen in the article.

Therefore, essentially, it is best to leave it unbanned (this is my view) because it will offend the least amount of the Australian population.

I think the article is interesting, but far (far) to narrow-minded as the author is clearly and forwardly a feminist. "My impression is that, rightly or wrongly, many Australians see the scarf as a symbol of the gender-based oppression women." She tactfully included the "rightly or wrongly" to make sure she wasn't killed walking down the street. But she sees it in such black-and-white simplicity that it's difficult to take her comments seriously. (This is my issue with feminists in general -> "let's look at the role of women and forget everything else").

She wants to ban the hijab so that women and men are represented equally in Australia? She sees it as a symbol of gender oppression, so her conclusion is fair enough. I simply think she's wrong in that Australians see a hijab and think "Arab/Muslim".

 

[AsyLum]

I simply think she's wrong in that Australians see a hijab and think "Arab/Muslim".

Really? I disagree with that comment, I think it's the distinctive symbol of Muslims within this particular point in time.

Banning something which is inherently a religious practice will always meet opposition, but such a miniscule and almost irrelevant concept seems trivial at best.

The argument that by banning it you are empowering the women of that culture, is somewhat illusionary, in that the religious practices will not cease, due to schools banning them, it's an ideological concept and ritual practice, not something which can be erased overnight.

The choice is there, that is what Australia was marketed as. I think there has been quite a large emphasis upon this 'conformity' to 'Australian-ness' but no one has really given, or really can give, a definite concept of what an 'Australian' is.

 

[SashatheMan]

that feminist chick is using opressions just as an excuse to ban these scarfs, but truly i think that she just wants to get rid of muslim culture and thinks they defy australian laws when wearing it.

 

[nwatts]

Really? I disagree with that comment, I think it's the distinctive symbol of Muslims within this particular point in time.

I personally see it as a symbol of Islam, but I feel that as a collective, Australians feel Muslim and Arab are one - especially now with the terrorism threat "lurking" from the Middle East.

My studies in Modern History this year (Arab-Israeli conflict) have furthered my belief that the world sees Arabs and Muslims as one. I read an article on the Munich Massacre of '74 and how this person blamed the "entire Islamic faith" for such a disaster (this was a public commentator too, can't recall exact name, will find), when it was very specifically and directly Palestinian terrorists, fighting for the causes of the PLO.

I'll also hear on the news (that are of course very biased) blaming Arab militants in Middle Eastern conflicts when they should refer to them as extremist Muslims - as they make demands/fight for/etc. Islamic causes. (The same thing also happens with switched terms, usually in relation to conflict in Israel).

The argument that by banning it you are empowering the women of that culture, is somewhat illusionary, in that the religious practices will not cease, due to schools banning them, it's an ideological concept and ritual practice, not something which can be erased overnight.

I don't think it's related to an empowering of women within the Islamic culture, more representitive of the role of Muslim women in the Australian culture. That's what I picked from the article posted. I agree that the practices within these cultures won't change - but I feel the relevance lies in how it affects Australian culture.

The choice is there, that is what Australia was marketed as. I think there has been quite a large emphasis upon this 'conformity' to 'Australian-ness' but no one has really given, or really can give, a definite concept of what an 'Australian' is.

That's because contemporary Australia is like Nazi Germany.

Australian = meat pies. I'm sure there's someone out there who can link meat pies with a discussion on hijabs.

that feminist chick is using opressions just as an excuse to ban these scarfs, but truly i think that she just wants to get rid of muslim culture and thinks they defy australian laws when wearing it.

I wouldn't go that far, but I did sense quite a negative tone with reference to Muslim culture/religion. And when thinking over it, it became far clearer. She's a feminist, and doesn't agree with how Islamic doctrine treats women. It's clear she'll oppose herself to a religion/culture that does so.

She says she wants equality, but she really just wants to burn female undergarments and rule the world.

 

[Götterfunken]

It wonder how well it worked in France?

And I’m al for banning religion. l

 

[manifestation]

The Hijab doesn't hurt anyone, it's not directly influencing anyone so what is the problem?! If it was harming someone, then yeah ban it. But no-one is getting harmed. Banning is only going to cause more problems and more hatred. If you try to understand it, understand the religion then hatred and differences aren't drawn.

Rather than trying to understand and educated themsleves about the religion and the reason why the Hijab is even worn, they just want to ban it straight out. People are just ignorant. People point fingers and make judgments without understanding.

Freedom of thought and conscience and religion, religious freedom should be allowed if is not conflicting with the operations of society.

 

[AsyLum]

I personally see it as a symbol of Islam, but I feel that as a collective, Australians feel Muslim and Arab are one - especially now with the terrorism threat "lurking" from the Middle East.

My studies in Modern History this year (Arab-Israeli conflict) have furthered my belief that the world sees Arabs and Muslims as one. I read an article on the Munich Massacre of '74 and how this person blamed the "entire Islamic faith" for such a disaster (this was a public commentator too, can't recall exact name, will find), when it was very specifically and directly Palestinian terrorists, fighting for the causes of the PLO.

I'll also hear on the news (that are of course very biased) blaming Arab militants in Middle Eastern conflicts when they should refer to them as extremist Muslims - as they make demands/fight for/etc. Islamic causes. (The same thing also happens with switched terms, usually in relation to conflict in Israel).

*cough*

I simply think she's wrong in that Australians see a hijab and think "Arab/Muslim".

I doubt seeing an Indonesian in full garb is going to signal alarm bells of "arab" rather than "muslim."

I don't think it's related to an empowering of women within the Islamic culture, more representitive of the role of Muslim women in the Australian culture. That's what I picked from the article posted. I agree that the practices within these cultures won't change - but I feel the relevance lies in how it affects Australian culture.

And i quote from the title:

For equality, ban the hijab in public schools
The Muslim headscarf is a challenge to Western gender equity, writes Leslie Cannold.

She's nothing more than another raving feminist. She has some decent points, as has been stated, but her reasoning is so illogical that it is laughable. "Remove the hijab, because it goes against Western doctrine." If we removed all things which challenged Western ideals, it'd be a mono-cultural throwback to Imperialist society.

That's because contemporary Australia is like Nazi Germany.

Australian = meat pies. I'm sure there's someone out there who can link meat pies with a discussion on hijabs.

Dumbest comment so far. Australia atm is like Nazi Germany? What are you smoking, Nazi Germany had already taken a solid foundation of Aryan descent and was reinforcing it within the socio-political sphere.

Australia is yet to formulate any 'real' conception of identity. The one of the bronzed aussie is by far gone, and the attempts to accomodate the increasingly multicultural identity differs greatly from this historic conception of Australian-ness. Of course people could relate meat pies to hijabs, i could relate a discussion on The wiggles and hillsong, but it doesnt mean it's right or logically binding.

 

[nadia88]

live and let live

come one guys...
does someone wearing a hijab actually mean that they are "dangerous", that they are "terroristits". in this day and age i can not believe that we live in a world that can not accept the values and beliefs of others. i mean no one is telling you to endorse it, or even adhere to it, but just be able to tolerate it and let others do what they beleive makes them happy. if muslim women are cliaming that they do not feel "oppressed" by wearing the hijab then who are we to point the finger and claim that they are? if they dont have a problem with it, then why should we? After years of wars and deaths at the hands of racial and religious discrimiantion, can we continue to criticise others for thier beliefs? i say live and let live! if we look at it, women wearing the hijab doesnt actually affect our lifestyle and so if they do not have a problem with it, then we shoudln't either!

everyone has thier opinions, i say just do what makes you happy and let us all live in a world where we do fear and criticise our fellow humans just because they are different!

 

[transcendent]

Quiet you terrorist sympathiser!

 

[manifestation]

come one guys...
does someone wearing a hijab actually mean that they are "dangerous", that they are "terroristits". in this day and age i can not believe that we live in a world that can not accept the values and beliefs of others. i mean no one is telling you to endorse it, or even adhere to it, but just be able to tolerate it and let others do what they beleive makes them happy. if muslim women are cliaming that they do not feel "oppressed" by wearing the hijab then who are we to point the finger and claim that they are? if they dont have a problem with it, then why should we? After years of wars and deaths at the hands of racial and religious discrimiantion, can we continue to criticise others for thier beliefs? i say live and let live! if we look at it, women wearing the hijab doesnt actually affect our lifestyle and so if they do not have a problem with it, then we shoudln't either!

everyone has thier opinions, i say just do what makes you happy and let us all live in a world where we do fear and criticise our fellow humans just because they are different!

YAY to that, my point exactly

 

[MoonlightSonata]

The Hijab doesn't hurt anyone, it's not directly influencing anyone so what is the problem?! If it was harming someone, then yeah ban it. But no-one is getting harmed. Banning is only going to cause more problems and more hatred. If you try to understand it, understand the religion then hatred and differences aren't drawn.

The strongest point in this argument is that it is harmful to the women who wear it because it acts as a repressive device in those cultures.

I for one agree that it is a silly, antiquated, patriarchal device (notwithstanding the fact that some women claim to be "liberated" by wearing it). However I do not think that this necessarily warrants banning it. Now, while I can see that it can cause harm, the extent of that harm I do not think justifies intervening to prohibit it by law. It would be nice to see it abolished but it is too great an interference with religious liberty to forcefully remove it.

Freedom of thought and conscience and religion, religious freedom should be allowed if is not conflicting with the operations of society.

I agree wholeheartedly, and the contentious issue in this debate is that last part, "if it is not conflicting with the operations of society". In my opinion, based upon the evidence so far, it is not. I would like to see more women's perspectives however. It is troubling because the leaders of these communities are men. It is dubious that women are really heard in expressing themselves on the issue.

She's nothing more than another raving feminist. She has some decent points, as has been stated, but her reasoning is so illogical that it is laughable. "Remove the hijab, because it goes against Western doctrine." If we removed all things which challenged Western ideals, it'd be a mono-cultural throwback to Imperialist society.

The issue is not merely about trying to maintain pure "Western ideals" per se. The argument is based upon equality. It is true that equality might be seen to be a Western ideal, but it happens to be one that I think we must uphold. I don't think many people would be successful in arguing that equality is of its nature a bad thing. So the issue is (or should be) about equality.

Given that, upon my understanding the hijab is somewhat repressive. Of course I would love to see it removed from these communities, but not by the force of the legislature - by the communities themselves. A number of religions have peculiar ideals about male dominance. I would like to see them evolve, yes. But measuring up the harm being suffered here I don't think it justifies an actual ban.

The bottom line is that it would be too significant an infringement of religious liberty.

 

[transcendent]

Mate this is a Christian country. You can take your mongrel race religion back to your own country thanks.