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The reason that that's a poor analogy is because on a beach there are none of the materials for the creation of a watch. Should there be other little bits of watch lying around on the beach and the raw materials, and varying degrees of watch formation, then we wouldn't find it so incredible...

our inner freedom is inhibited by our political freedom ;)

http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=2496

urgh freedom is leaking out my ears.

Let's exercise our freedoms to steal!

see! i knew you were fascist neocon liberal scum. That's what hitler said.

I'm an advocate of some freedom fighting. In?

but would they be free? WHERES THEIR FREEDOM THEN

I don't know, at one stage I thort u was all 'no everything is for freedom' but then at another one you were all like 'don't be a dickhead welfare is good and we need to restrict some freedums'

it's more fun that way. Australia is good and the abolishment of welfare system = opmost evil :D @dom: you're confusing me tonight :o

I wasn't aiming that at you guy. But even so, we are fortunate no? healthy upbringing and an education (even if it was at a public school!)

dan, you and I have never had to worry about not having enough food or a roof over our heads. We have had internet and computers and the resources for school and a stimulating upbringing. Our parents are intelligent and foster that sort of growth. That's why we can focus on what we want to do...

You guys always use these select 'make it themselves' stories, but ignore all the times it doesn't. Like chadd said, the stats are against you, and the reasons are because they got some help at some point - something that would not be an option if you had your way and there were no social...

Coming from the north shore rich boy. You've never had to worry about food or money or education, of course no body else would have to at the age of 7 either. They're a waste of money and time. THey basically deserve to be there if they can't get off their asses and make something of themselves...

so you don't believe that freedom is the ultimate goal?

oh yeah btw the options are very retarded, I just wanted a poll :o

I'm sort of wondering whether the likes of nolan, waf, kat, malfoy, think that the ultimate good is political freedom (I'm using the word political to distinguish between the other philosophical free will/determinism debate). Because in many cases one or another of them has appeared to place...

Does anyone believe that political freedom is inherently good? Here I'm hoping that the libertarians will jump in. Is it right that you guys even go so far as to say it's the one innate good?

In forfeiting some rights, such as taxes and obeying laws, we can hope for freedom from poverty, starvation, freedom that comes from education. A government might intervene and put a drug addict into rehab in the hope that through taking away this 'freedom' (and here I think Mill might argue...

Re: legalisation of drugs, prostitution, tax, internet, religion, speech, education, fines etc etc, what are your opinions on individual freedom in relation to the wider community? At what point do we give up certain freedoms? How much is the govt allowed to dictate? why? Is freedom an innate...