Australia's Education system (2 Viewers)

[BandSixFix]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-australias-schools-20160323-gnpno9.html

Discuss.

Personally, I feel it is our teachers to blame for the rapid decrease in Australia's education performance.

 

[Nailgun]

1. The academic standards for becoming a teacher are ridiculously low now.Teaching is legit what a lot of people do when they couldn't get a job in their own field i.e. basically every science teacher at my school (they still are good teachers though as a result of actually knowing their shit). Obviously soft-skills are important in teaching, but no amount of soft skills will overcome a lack of technical understanding of their own subject. Honestly, we need to pay teachers more/legitimate evaluation systems that aren't fking dodgy. Right now, most talented teachers are in the profession for altruistic purposes - 9/10 they could make more money in another field but would rather teach. We need to open it up to a larger talent pool - we get what we pay for. Obviously this money has to come somewhere, making it highly unlikely to ever happen, but yeah.

2. This is completely an opinion, and is entirely biased by my own context. We need to refocus the education system - or at the very least high-school education to cater for talented/gifted students. imo right now we are focused on bringing up the bottom and this is holding us back as a nation. How many times have you heard someone say, "Why do we have to learn this? I'm never going to need it." and a lot of the time they are right. This is harsh, but if someone becomes a brickie, or a tradesman or a lot of things - why do they need a senior high-school education. It is a waste, and as a result we have the watered down HSC we have today. The education system right now caters to the lowest common denominator - even if they don't need/want it to. That is why.

3. We set low standards for ourselves as a nation. I feel like Australia in general is perfectly fine with half-assing basically everything. Like we're not ruthlessly capitalistic or generously socialist like some of European countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing in a lot of contexts, but does hold us back educationally. The thing is Australian culture doesn't really care where our education system is ranked in comparison to other countries - we aren't a hyper-competitive Asian country, and it ain't necessarily a bad thing. Dropping consistently is probably a bad thing though, see above.

 

[Drongoski]

Australia has been a lucky country. Here a tradesman can sometimes earn more than a university academic. Why? It does not value its intellectually gifted. It treats them like dirt. You are going to do better as an NRL star than a professor. So what message are you sending to the Australian community? That being intellectual or academically good isn't going to get you anywhere. Recently, they laid off another lot of CSIRO scientists.

A few years ago, Julia Gillard said she wanted Australia to be in the top 5 in the world in Maths & Science (??). How unrealistic.

How come Australia sux in the PISA tests? You tell me.

Australia likes to compare itself with fellow white (& therefore advanced) countries. Likes to hold up Finland as a desirable model. But look at the scores of Shanghai-China (vs Finland). China did not get to participate in PISA until very recently, not being an OECD country.

If you look at the equivalent of 4U Maths, say, 40 years ago, they were tough compared to now. Australians who completed 9 years of schooling could write better than most Yr 12 students of today - shit spelling, grammar etc. Just count the number of 'So' that begins a post.

As has been pointed out, the bar has been allowed to drop lower and lower. If you find 2U Maths (so-called 'Advanced Maths') hard, don't worry, we have just the thing for you: General Maths. Oh, if that is hard we'll do something about it. How about Maths General. In fact how about Maths General 1 (no need to take a test) or Maths General 2.

Oh so students find Physics hard? So the HSC enrolment for Physics has been dropping. Don't worry; we'll do something about it. How about less computation and more social/historical aspects of Physics?

How about the universities? In 1963, there were maybe 10 or so universities. It was something to be a graduate. Nowadays, there are maybe over 40 institutions offering a degree programme. University education was elitist - for the best. Recently, Greg Craven accused NSW education minister, Piccoli, of being elitist when he suggesting tightening requirements for Education degees. So we want university education to be non-elitist: i.e. regardless of your ability, everyone should be allowed to have a university education. This same Craven has been appointed by Chistopher Pyne to advise on reforms for Education. The blind leading the blind. Craven's Australian Catholic University has some of the lowest entry requirements for its Education programme.

Uni Prerequisites: The universities these 2 decades or so, decided to drop prerequisites for university courses. I think they wanted to be free to fill their classes, as they get more funding this way. So they just say: HSC Physics is assumed knowledge for, say, B Engg (Mechanical) - but it is not a prerequisite. Similarly. A good grade in 2U or 3U Maths ought to have been a prerequisite for many degree courses was also dropped. This, over the years had the disastrous flow-on effect of de-emphasising the importance of HSC Maths, so that over the last 20 years, the number of students offering 3U and 4U Maths has declined while the number of students doing the Mickey Mouse General Maths or not taking any maths at all has soared. So the universities's irresponsible policies has contributed to a further dumbing down in Australian Maths. (Sydney U a few days ago said it will introduce Maths prerequisites for 62 Degrees wef 2019)

I don't know when they began the practice of automatic promotion. Imagine being able to do YR 12 without having to pass a single qualifying exam at the end of each year of school. So it is not unusual to find some Yr 9 students not even mastering the algebra and geometry of Yr 6. You have all these progressive education experts guiding the nation's political leaders - and where have they lead it to? Another way of looking at things: consider the products of the bad old days of 50 years ago and the products of the current progressive practices, backed by 50 years of educational research: are the present products better than the old ones?

Teacher Requirements: 1) the minimum ATAR for school teachers for primary schools should be 80 say, and for secondary schools, 90. 2) the old system of a degree followed by a Dip Ed as the route for teachimg produces a superior outcome. So a Maths teacher should complete a degree majoring in Maths followed by a 1-year Dip Ed (no need for a 2-Yr Programme); A Physics teacher should have a degree majoring in Physics followed by a Dip Ed. Not all there B Ed nonsense of half-baked teachers. Teachers of any subject must have a solid grounding in the associated discipline.

Parental & National Expectation

This is related to the setting of the bar mentioned earlier. Consider The following scenario:
Chinese Parent: What? You got only 95 in your test? What happen to the other 5 marks?
Aussie Parent: Well done, Jason. 65 marks is terrific.
I'm not making any judgement as to which philosophy is better. All I'm saying is that if yoy set your epectations high, you get a better (marks) outcome. Whether or not this is a healthy thing, you be the judge.

HSC: A Supermarket of Course Offerings: One might praise the NSW HSC for offering a choice of about 130 courses. Students can take the path of least resistance, and opt for the easier subjects. In many countries in the world, courses offered are the key disciplines. Maybe at most 10 main courses to choose from. Maybe at most maths: Standard and Higher - there is no pandering to every ability level.

Attitude towards Homework

Many of you are aware that there are many Anglo parents who are against too much homework for their kids. Some even prefer zero homework, at least for primary kids. One could argue for/against this stand. But as we all know, class lessons need to be followed up by a fair amount of exercises being done, whether at school or at home, in order to consolidate learning. How much homework students do must inevitably affect performance.

One can tell by the amount of money Asian parents spend on tutoring, whether or not one considers this practice healthy, is a reflection of the importance they attach to education and to academic performance.

Priorities
Aussies have different priorities, and this is reflected in their educational practices. I'm not saying their priorities are wrong.

High Australian Standards. Inspite of all this concern about woeful educational achievements, I must say that many things in this country are done very very well. So there are many things that are being done at very high standards.

 

[Flop21]

I believe the whole system needs to be digitalised and mass produced to everyone. Get a platform like Khan Academy, have structured lessons for everything in the syllabus, for each year. This would allow for the quality of 'teaching' and the materials presented to students to be of upmost quality.

We shouldn't need a human being standing in class saying the same thing over and over every year, with maybe slight variations, maybe skipping something, maybe getting tired and not doing a good job one day.

We could have all those teachers collaborate and put all the teaching resources in making one awesome online system / videos / teaching materials that would be accessible to every student.

 

[Paradoxica]

Australia has been a lucky country. Here a tradesman can sometimes earn more than a university academic. Why? It does not value its intellectually gifted. It treats them like dirt. You are going to do better as an NRL star than a professor. So what message are you sending to the Australian community? That being intellectual or academically good isn't going to get you anywhere. Recently, they laid off another lot of CSIRO scientist.

A few years ago, Julia Guillard said she wanted Australia to be in the top 5 in the world in Maths & Science (??). How unrealistic.

How come Australia sux in the PISA tests? You tell me.

Well the world is changing to a digitally based economy and if Australia chooses not to keep up... Well then, that's going to show up in the years to come.

Also, on that view... Why did you even offer me those books then? If what you're saying is true, then there's a bit of inconsistency in your actions.

 

[Flop21]

1. The academic standards for becoming a teacher are ridiculously low now.Teaching is legit what a lot of people do when they couldn't get a job in their own field i.e. basically every science teacher at my school (they still are good teachers though as a result of actually knowing their shit). Obviously soft-skills are important in teaching, but no amount of soft skills will overcome a lack of technical understanding of their own subject. Honestly, we need to pay teachers more/legitimate evaluation systems that aren't fking dodgy. Right now, most talented teachers are in the profession for altruistic purposes - 9/10 they could make more money in another field but would rather teach. We need to open it up to a larger talent pool - we get what we pay for. Obviously this money has to come somewhere, making it highly unlikely to ever happen, but yeah.

2. This is completely an opinion, and is entirely biased by my own context. We need to refocus the education system - or at the very least high-school education to cater for talented/gifted students. imo right now we are focused on bringing up the bottom and this is holding us back as a nation. How many times have you heard someone say, "Why do we have to learn this? I'm never going to need it." and a lot of the time they are right. This is harsh, but if someone becomes a brickie, or a tradesman or a lot of things - why do they need a senior high-school education. It is a waste, and as a result we have the watered down HSC we have today. The education system right now caters to the lowest common denominator - even if they don't need/want it to. That is why.

3. We set low standards for ourselves as a nation. I feel like Australia in general is perfectly fine with half-assing basically everything. Like we're not ruthlessly capitalistic or generously socialist like some of European countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing in a lot of contexts, but does hold us back educationally. The thing is Australian culture doesn't really care where our education system is ranked in comparison to other countries - we aren't a hyper-competitive Asian country, and it ain't necessarily a bad thing. Dropping consistently is probably a bad thing though, see above.

What school "brings up the bottom"? I'd honestly like to know. Since most of the schools I know of, and the one I attended, completely left behind kids who were falling behind. Teachers couldn't give a shit about kids who weren't in the top class.

I think the system should cater for ALL kids, naturally talented or not. Everyone deserves a good education I believe. And remember these kids are just that, kids. They don't know what they want in 10 years time. We shouldn't just let them drop out of school and go become a brickie because HS was too hard at the time.

I really really do not want a society where most of us don't have a proper education, lack of education just creates too many people with uneducated views and that's not a good thing IMO.

I think the issue is mainly the teachers themselves. Most of them suck. Which is like I said in previous post, why I think they should just standardise the whole teaching thing. Save physical teachers as 'tutors' who help those not keeping up/understanding the teaching content.

 

[InteGrand]

What school "brings up the bottom"? I'd honestly like to know.

I think he was referring to the the general curriculums / system overall, rather than school-specific things, as he said ''as a result we have the watered down HSC we have today. The education system right now caters to the lowest common denominator''.

 

[Nailgun]

I believe the whole system needs to be digitalised and mass produced to everyone. Get a platform like Khan Academy, have structured lessons for everything in the syllabus, for each year. This would allow for the quality of 'teaching' and the materials presented to students to be of upmost quality.

We shouldn't need a human being standing in class saying the same thing over and over every year, with maybe slight variations, maybe skipping something, maybe getting tired and not doing a good job one day.

We could have all those teachers collaborate and put all the teaching resources in making one awesome online system / videos / teaching materials that would be accessible to every student.

In NSW alone there are almost 50,000 teachers who would now no longer really have careers (outside of the short period in the development of a system, and perhaps some in the maintenance)

Something relevant from Richard Feynman

I think, however, that there isn't any solution to this problem of education
other than to realize that the best teaching can be done only when there is a direct
individual relationship between a student and a good teacher—a situation in which
the student discusses the ideas, thinks about the things, and talks about the things.
It's impossible to learn very much by simply sitting in a lecture, or even by simply
doing problems that are assigned. But in our modern times we have so many
students to teach that we have to try to find some substitute for the ideal.

I think for more difficult subjects (which we should encourage implicitly) the student/teacher connection is vital
That being said the in the majority of HSC subjects today this is unnecessary in terms of content. imo you only really need a teacher for exam technique in most subjects

Plus, I don't think such a system encourages creativity or further thinking. A physics teacher (phd) I have on occasion will go off on tangents - they aren't technically part of the syllabus but they help you actually understand what's happening. The HSC as it is know to a certain degree encourages rote-learning as opposed to understanding, and imo this is a direct result for trying to cater to the lowest denominator.

As Drongoski says we keep giving ourselves easy ways out both at a high-school and tertiary level in the lower and lower derivatives of each subject, and removing prereqs from uni. I mean if you aren't interested and would rather be a tradesman - i.e. you don't 'need' a higher education than you should be able to drop out if you want. If for some reason you change your mind in 10 years and want to try and become an astrophysicist you still can in Australia - there are so many pathways into whatever you want.

 

[Drongoski]

Also, on that view... Why did you even offer me those books then? If what you're saying is true, then there's a bit of inconsistency in your actions.

Where is the inconsistency? I thought you would benefit from them. What a weird way of interpreting an act of generousity and kindness. Did you even acknowledge it and utter a single word of thanks? If you don't appreciate them, you can throw them out.

 

[Paradoxica]

Where is the inconsistency? I thought you would benefit from them. What a weird way of interpreting an act of generousity and kindness. Did you even acknowledge it and utter a single word of thanks? If you don't appreciate them, you can throw them out.

I know that's why you gave them to me.

But if you say people treat other people like dirt, then why do you act in the opposite? Or is that your way of living life?

 

[Nailgun]

I know that's why you gave them to me.

But if you say people treat other people like dirt, then why do you act in the opposite? Or is that your way of living life?

I think he was trying to say the current status quo in Australia is very unfavorable to intellectuals, and as a result the perceived value of an academically gifted person is much less than their actual value to society, and you can see this reflected in their remuneration.

It wasn't a personal thing, but a commentary on a systemic issue with how Australia, and by extension Australians perceive the value of the intellectually gifted as compared to the athletically gifted, or otherwise gifted (musically, celebrity etc.)

 

[Drongoski]

I know that's why you gave them to me.

But if you say people treat other people like dirt, then why do you act in the opposite? Or is that your way of living life?

In life I try to do the right thing: to be fair, honest, grateful, considerate, kind, helpful and if I can afford it, generous. You reflect on your own conduct. I think, as a human being, being a human and being humane is more important than being very rational. If you want to be 100 percent rational, be a robot.

 

[Paradoxica]

In life I try to do the right thing: to be fair, honest, grateful, kind, helpful and if I can afford it, generous. You reflect on your own conduct. I think, as a human being, being a human and being humane is more important than being very rational. If you want to be 100 percent rational, be a robot.

If this is in reference to the other thread, you have the wrong person. There are two different things on that username.

I hold my stance, even if I am not that other user.

Rationality is significant as good intentions and good actions are distinct categories.

 

[Flop21]

In NSW alone there are almost 50,000 teachers who would now no longer really have careers (outside of the short period in the development of a system, and perhaps some in the maintenance)

So we should sacrifice the quality of our country's education purely to save some people's jobs? That's so silly. Most careers won't even exist in the near future anyway.

 

[Drongoski]

If this is in reference to the other thread, you have the wrong person. There are two different things on that username.

I hold my stance, even if I am not that other user.

Rationality is significant as good intentions and good actions are distinct categories.

Heck. I thought you were one and the same. I must be mindful of the distinction then.

 

[Paradoxica]

Heck. I thought you were one and the same. I must be mindful of the distinction then.

He created the account specifically to ask me some questions about my mathematical qualities. (After lurking for who knows how long)

It's borderline creepy, but I'm not one to care about that sort of thing.

 

[Nailgun]

Australia has been a lucky country. Here a tradesman can sometimes earn more than a university academic. Why? It does not value its intellectually gifted. It treats them like dirt. You are going to do better as an NRL star than a professor. So what message are you sending to the Australian community? That being intellectual or academically good isn't going to get you anywhere. Recently, they laid off another lot of CSIRO scientist.

A few years ago, Julia Guillard said she wanted Australia to be in the top 5 in the world in Maths & Science (??). How unrealistic.

How come Australia sux in the PISA tests? You tell me.

Australia likes to compare itself with fellow white (& therefore advanced) countries. Likes to hold up Finland as a desirable model. But look at the scores of Shanghai-China (vs Finland). China did not get to participate in PISA until very recently, not being an OECD country.

If you look at the equivalent of 4U Maths, say, 40 years ago, they were tough compared to now. Australians who completed 9 years of school could write better than most Yr 12 students of today - shit spelling, grammar etc. Just count the number of 'So' that begins a post.

As has been pointed out, the bar has been allowed to drop lower and lower. If you find 2U Maths (so-called 'Advanced Maths') hard, don't worry, we have just the thing for you: General Maths. Oh, if that is hard we'll do something about it. How about Maths General. In fact how about Maths General 1 (no need to take a test) or Maths General 2.

Oh so students find Physics hard? So the HSC enrolment for Physics has been dropping. Don't worry; we'll do something about it. How about less computation and more social/historical aspects of Physics?

How about the universities? In 1963, there were maybe 10 or so universities. It was something to be a graduate. Nowadays, there are maybe over 40 institutions offering a degree programme. University education was elitist - for the best. Recently, Greg Craven accused NSW education minister, Piccoli, of being elitist when he suggesting tightening requirements for Education degees. So we want university education to be non-elitist: i.e. regardless of your ability, everyone should be allowed to have a university education. This same Craven has been appointed by Chistopher Pyne to advise on reforms for Education. The blind leading the blind. Craven's Australian Catholic University has some of the lowest entry requirements for its Education programme.

The universities these 2 decades or so, decided to drop prerequisites for university courses. I think they wanted to be free to fill their classes, as they get more funding this way. So they just say: HSC Physics is assumed knowledge for, say, B Engg (Mechanical) - but it is not a prerequisite. Similarly. A good grade in 2U or 3U Maths ought to have been a prerequisite for many degree courses was also dropped. This, over the years had the flow-on effect of de-emphasising the importance of HSC Maths, so that over the last 20 years, the number of students offering 3U and 4U Maths has declined while the number of students doing the Mickey Mouse General Maths or not taking any maths at all has soared. So the universities's irresponsible policies has contributed to a further dumbing down in Australian Maths.

I don't know when they began the practice of automatic promotion. Imagine being able to do YR 12 without having to pass a single qualifying exam at the end of each year of school. So it is not unusual to find some Yr 9 students not even mastering the algebra and geometry of Yr 6. You have all these progressive education experts guiding the nation's political leaders - and where have they lead it to? Another way of looking at things: consider the products of the bad old days of 50 years ago and the products of the current progressive practices, backed by 50 years of educational research: are the present products better than the old ones?

In my view: Teacher Requirements: 1) the minimum ATAR for school teachers for primary schools should be 80 say, and for secondary schools, 90. 2) the old system of a degree followed by a Dip Ed as the route for teachimg produces a superior outcome. So a Maths teacher should complete a degree majoring in Maths followed by a 1-year Dip Ed (no need for a 2-Yr Programme); A Physics teacher should have a degree majoring in Physics followed by a Dip Ed. Not all there B Ed nonsence of half-baked teachers. Teachers of any subject must have a solid grounding in the associated discipline.

btw no-one knows you've amended your post each time you've edited unless they re-read it/notice it.
it would be more beneficial to the discussion if you posted a new post each time

 

[Drongoski]

btw no-one knows you've amended your post each time you've edited unless they re-read it/notice it.
it would be more beneficial to the discussion if you posted a new post each time

Thanks for your suggestion.

 

[nerdasdasd]

I'm not bothered enough to write an essay but id say there are a number of factors:
- Australia has a culture that values the arts over the academic (lots of arts related stuff but not much academic related )

- Australian parents don't seem to value maths or science much (which is why you seem to notice that migrants do better than Aussies )

- Australia has the shittiest standards for things like math and science (what Australian maths students learn in the 3rd year is what people overseas would Learn in the 1st year )

- Australia let's people who fail subjects continue onto high school and primary school (uni too) - self explanatory

- Australia has low entry standards for teaching degrees - self explanatory

- Australia caters the syllabus towards the not so academically inclined (learning algebra in year 7....it's easy as pie ).

*sorry if I offend anyone*

 

[nerdasdasd]

Id also like to say that pumping money isn't going to help with anything if the issue is remotely culture or standards related.

>> if anything ... Aus has been increasing funding and results have yet to be seen.