MedVision ad

Budget 2007: Steven Schwartz on $5 billion Higher Education Endowment Fund (1 Viewer)

GoodToGo

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2004
Messages
1,144
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Op-ed in the Herald by our VC. The usual egalitarian/libertarian spiel. Couldn't agree more about overhauling the 2-tiered system...

-------


From Soviet class to world class

STEVEN SCHWARTZ
May 10, 2007


Australian higher education is the very model of a nationalised industry. University buildings are falling down, much of our equipment is obsolete and our staff are demoralised and cynical. As in the old Soviet Union, university resources are allocated by bureaucrats rather than price and institutions are fined for "overproduction" (enrolling too many students).

But a new day has dawned. The buildings, equipment and staff morale haven't changed overnight but, for the first time in many years, there is hope.

The $5 billion Higher Education Endowment Fund will help universities fund much-needed capital works projects, thus providing campuses with new buildings and equipment that will make learning richer and help academics with their research and teaching. More money for teaching and research is also very welcome and it seems "over-production" will now be sanctioned rather than punished.

However, there are several holdovers from the old Soviet system. Most resources, including the earnings of the new endowment fund, will be allocated by bureaucrats rather than the market and universities will be given limited scope to vary the fees for HECS students. These are probably too hard to tackle in an election year.

On the other hand, when it comes to full-fee students, the Government has decided to allow the chilly winds of the market to howl. Provided they fill their HECS places first, universities can charge what they like to as many students as they like.

Removing the cap on full-fee paying places will increase student choice and flexibility, creating - in Federal Education Minister Julie Bishop's words - a more "demand-driven university system". It also allows universities to use their spare capacity efficiently.

However, having two fee regimes is not exactly an optimum social policy.

Imagine two students. One attends a well-resourced private school and receives after-school coaching. The other studies at a poorly resourced rural school and spends her after-school hours helping her widowed mum to make ends meet. The first student gets a tertiary entrance score half a point higher than the second and is admitted to her preferred course in a HECS-subsidised place. The second student misses out and accepts a full-fee place in the same course. The wealthier candidate ends up paying a lower price.

This is an odd outcome because it is not obvious that the wealthy student would perform better at university. A less mechanical admissions system, one that considered a student's background, may have concluded that an economically deprived applicant, who manages to achieve an entry score only half a point lower than a student who had all the advantages, may actually perform better at university.

The system of subsidising some students while making others pay full fees is inefficient. The dropout rate for students in many government-subsidised courses is higher than the dropout rate for courses enrolling high numbers of full-fee students. If Government subsidies aim to maximise the number of graduates, then the current system produces perverse outcomes.

The equity and efficiency problems could be overcome by making all students HECS-subsidised. The best way to do this is to allow funding to follow students and to end all price controls. We should make a subsidy available to anyone accepted by a recognised university and allow universities to charge what they wish on top of this (repayable through the tax system).

The Government's figures show that Australian full-fee students make up only 2 per cent of the total. It will not cost much to add subsidies for these students. Also, according to the Government, there is no longer any "unmet demand" so great numbers of new students are unlikely to appear.

Universities will be free to determine how many students they will teach when funding follows students and prices are deregulated. Some will opt for high price and restricted access. Others will go for a low price and a high volume of students.

Our leading universities will compete with the best in the world. Other universities will offer a low-cost, no-frills, mainly vocational, education. Some universities will teach at nights and weekends while others will take learning to the workplace. Competition for students, who will control the purse strings, will produce better student services. By eliminating the two-class funding system, we will preserve and reinforce our reputation as socially responsible and ethical institutions.

Stephen Schwartz is the Vice-Chancellor of Macquarie University.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
7,986
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
I'm liking this guy more and more.

The Government's figures show that Australian full-fee students make up only 2 per cent of the total. It will not cost much to add subsidies for these students.
That gets a massive thumbs up from me.
 
X

xeuyrawp

Guest
I read about 3 paragraphs of fluff and gave up. Anyone care to summarise any points he had?
 

AsyLum

Premium Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
15,899
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
A less mechanical admissions system, one that considered a student's background, may have concluded that an economically deprived applicant, who manages to achieve an entry score only half a point lower than a student who had all the advantages, may actually perform better at university.

The system of subsidising some students while making others pay full fees is inefficient. The dropout rate for students in many government-subsidised courses is higher than the dropout rate for courses enrolling high numbers of full-fee students. If Government subsidies aim to maximise the number of graduates, then the current system produces perverse outcomes.

The equity and efficiency problems could be overcome by making all students HECS-subsidised. The best way to do this is to allow funding to follow students and to end all price controls. We should make a subsidy available to anyone accepted by a recognised university and allow universities to charge what they wish on top of this (repayable through the tax system).
 
X

xeuyrawp

Guest
K I read it. With regards to the short bit about equality across socio-economic backgrounds: Ahah.

It can never happen. If you try too hard to create equality of health, education, security, representation, etc, you undermine one of the most important feature of our society: There is no reason to work hard and have money if it's not going to pay off for the important things. Having cars and hookers is nice, but people really want money for if they want to hire a lawyer, get their dying child a kidney transplant, ensure that their grandkids can go to a private school and become members of parliament, etc.

Having a spectrum of rich and poor allows people to want to move economically and thus better society. Why would anyone want to work hard if they get the same as someone who doesn't? If everyone had equal opportunities, economic movement would be impossible, noone would work hard, and nothing would get done.

Having a university system which removes full fee is exactly the same. 'An education' is always going to be the central goal of the wealthy parent, and removing this from the tertiary system would be a grave mistake. It would also imply that certain areas of schooling should be subsidised. It's all very Star Trek and a bit hilarious. Good luck to him breaking 11000 years of craft specialisation. :wave:

Secondly, I love this bit:

Competition for students, who will control the purse strings, will produce better student services.
a) How can you have competition for students when thousands of students come from overseas, with no entry requirements other than paying? Paying for a place goes directly against the above aim of equality. It also makes places very uncompetitive.
b) How can student services be bettered when you allow discredited and legally dubious characters to control important services? Obviously students are too lazy and too stupid to look after these services, that they should either be completely taken away or looked after by the university.
c) How can a university be competitive for students when it's now focusing so hard on post-graduate research positions into areas of big-bucks industries and 'mainly vocational' occupations?

:rofl:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

GoodToGo

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2004
Messages
1,144
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
PwarYuex said:
Having a spectrum of rich and poor allows people to want to move economically and thus better society. Why would anyone want to work hard if they get the same as someone who doesn't? If everyone had equal opportunities, economic movement would be impossible, noone would work hard, and nothing would get done.

Hahah, I hardly think Schwartz is arguing for a Communist society. He is arguing for an end to the two-tiered system (which Rudd will implement in 2009 should he be voted in).

Cyan_phoeniX said:
I may sound like an arse, but how can you conclude that? I'm not really confident that a system like that would work well, it sounds like a reaction to discrimination by discriminating students who have grown up in an enriched environment.

mainly, I'd like to see how they measure a student's background. It could also turn out to be a program that discriminates people who are fairly well off. It sounds nasty and anti-PC but the unfortunate reality is that people who have been brought up in an enriched environment (which equates to having a lot of opportunities) DO perform better later on. Regardless of jealously towards such groups, why gives these people a handicap?
I take it then you don't agree with uni spots/abstudy that we have for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students?

A less mechanised system of admission to universities is already in place for entry into Medicine and other fields (based on UAI, standardised tests, application and interview, with a consideration of your background being a small element of consideration for entry). This does not mean "oh you're poor, you've struggled, you're in". Think of it more like a job interview for uni, where many factors of the applicant are considered, and the university can decide who the best mix of students will be (quite often these will be in line with HSC marks, but there can be exceptions where a person with a lower UAI can get in).

A more flexible system than what we have is already in place in most western universities in the world. It is not some crazy theory but a norm in most developed tertiary education systems.

I'm not sure if the kid with the "enRICHed" background would do better or worse than the poor kid... he may do worse as that kid could only get 0.5 better than the poor kid despite all the advantages he has had (as Steven Schwartz is seems allude). But the rich kid may well do better as he will have a more stable life and be able to afford all the textbooks, laptop, whatever. Ideally, it should be the universities decision.

The only people that a more open and flexible admission to uni would discriminate against are the people who are too lazy to make an application, have trouble carrying a simple conversation or are overly annoying and only have a half-decent test score. (Of course if you have a shit-hot test score, you'll also no doubt get in despite being the worst of all of the above).

So who really loses out? The gymps and retards in our tutes we complain about.

N.B International students are a whole different topic as their admission is purely a money making venture.
 
Last edited:
X

xeuyrawp

Guest
GoodToGo said:
Hahah, I hardly think Schwartz is arguing for a Communist society. He is arguing for an end to the two-tiered system (which Rudd will implement in 2009 should he be voted in).
Er, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about statements like:

This is an odd outcome because it is not obvious that the wealthy student would perform better at university.
Which is incorrect. Why would the poor person suddenly be freed of all their burdens once they entered uni? If anything, university is harder for people with prior commitments which, apparently, dissolve if you're rich. :rolleyes:

And why do you keep calling it 'two-tiered' when it's not tiered? Where's this term coming from? Neither of the two possibilities for enrolment are above or below the other...
 

GoodToGo

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2004
Messages
1,144
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
PwarYuex said:
Er, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about statements like...
Nonetheless, you had a nice little anti-communist/socialist rant (quoted earlier). Was that in response to a particular point of the article, or the article as a whole.

PwarYuex said:
Which is incorrect. Why would the poor person suddenly be freed of all their burdens once they entered uni? If anything, university is harder for people with prior commitments which, apparently, dissolve if you're rich. :rolleyes:
It still doesn't 'make it obvious' the rich student (who we must remember is inherently dumber than the poor kid) would perform better.

A lot of things change between high school and university. You are in a completely different environment for starters. Youth allowance (espeically those on the maximum level) can go a long way in getting rid of burdens.





PwarYuex said:
And why do you keep calling it 'two-tiered' when it's not tiered? Where's this term coming from? Neither of the two possibilities for enrolment are above or below the other...
It's a two-tiered form of admission, not too two-tiered courses. There's full-fee for local students (with significantly lower requirement for entry) and HECS/Comm-supported (for the majority of us who don't need/don't want/can't afford full fee). This is more prevalent in the GroupOfEight unis than at Macq. Melbourne Uni will be going 50-50 of the two forms of entry (but will offer significant scholarships to all students).

I'm not against the notion that there should be full-fees for everyone (provided that a good chunk of the money made is used for sizeable scholarships)... it's inevitable that universities will head down that road. I just think there should be one class of entry for all, not two.
 
Last edited:
X

xeuyrawp

Guest
Sorry, I really should have quoted the exact part of the article I was talking about! All I was really talking about in my tangent was this bit:

The wealthier candidate ends up paying a lower price.
Which is the point of being wealthy. Why be wealthy and pay more of a 'price'? Totally illogical.

goodtogo said:
It still doesn't 'make it obvious' the rich student (who we must remember is inherently dumber than the poor kid) would perform better.

A lot of things change between high school and university. You are in a completely different environment for starters. Youth allowance (espeically those on the maximum level) can go a long way in getting rid of burdens.
Youth allowance compensates for being in a more expensive place, imo, it doesn't cover the student completely. Also have to remember that there is support for pre-tertiary students, as well.

Melbourne Uni will be going 50-50 of the two forms of entry (but will offer significant scholarships to all students).
Woah! Where did that come from? Definitely like a source for that. Not that I don't believe you, just that I'd like some sort of justification for it. I think that Macquarie is allowed 25% extra full fee places from CSP places, and I thought it was the same for all Australian unis -- could be very wrong though.

I'm not against the notion that there should be full-fees for everyone (provided that a good chunk of the money made is used for sizeable scholarships)... it's inevitable that universities will head down that road. I just think there should be one class of entry for all, not two.
So you're saying that both DFEE and CSP UAI entry requirements should be equal? What's the point in having DFEE then? Noone will go for it, but rather do CSP and pay upfront.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

GoodToGo

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2004
Messages
1,144
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
PwarYuex said:
So
Woah! Where did that come from? Definitely like a source for that. Not that I don't believe you, just that I'd like some sort of justification for it. I think that Macquarie is allowed 25% extra full fee places from CSP places, and I thought it was the same for all Australian unis -- could be very wrong though.
"Mr Howard defended the government's decision to remove limits on the number of full fee-paying students in all university courses."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...1178390396190.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Melbourne is moving to 1/3 full fee at undergraduate (but this only includes generalist degrees such as B-Arts, B-Science and B-Commerce).

Up to 50% full fee for the professional degrees: law, architecture, nursing, education, medicine, dentistry, engineering for 2008. These areas will ONLY be available at a graduate level from 2008.

Good interview by Kerry O'Brien: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1898741.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2007/04/30/1177788047336.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/edito...1176696835109.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1



PwarYuex said:
So you're saying that both DFEE and CSP UAI entry requirements should be equal? What's the point in having DFEE then? Noone will go for it, but rather do CSP and pay upfront.
I'm not saying they should be equal, I'm saying it'd be a better, fairer system if one of them did not exist. Rudd wants to phase out DFEE at undergraduate level by 2009. Melbourne Uni based on the "Melbourne model" is slowly phasing out CSP (though I doubt they'll get rid of it completely).
 
Last edited:
X

xeuyrawp

Guest
Nice, thanks for that. :)

And yeah I know about Rudd -- it's pretty much exactly the same as Labor's older models. I'm really against them on this, though, as I said above.

The Melbourne model looks awesome generally -- I'm a big fan of removing things like law from undergrad. Too many HSC leavers jump right into law and this, combined with every uni offering undergrad law, makes the industry flooded with uncompetitive graduates.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top