How much do internal rankings affect your ATAR? (2 Viewers)

[jon1995]

Lets say my internal marks for a subject is 16th and I got into the HSC exam and I got 2nd and a mark of 90%, will I instantly get the 16th mark in the HSC exam or will it get scaled up because my external mark is high.
My internal rankings right now aren't were I want them to be so I'm hoping that they won't affect my ATAR too much if I do exceptionally well in the HSC exam. I keep hearing that the internal rank you get is the HSC mark you will get and I'm starting to lose hope in getting a ATAR that will give me access to uni.

 

[Drifting95]

Lets say my internal marks for a subject is 16th and I got into the HSC exam and I got 2nd and a mark of 90%, will I instantly get the 16th mark in the HSC exam or will it get scaled up because my external mark is high.
My internal rankings right now aren't were I want them to be so I'm hoping that they won't affect my ATAR too much if I do exceptionally well in the HSC exam. I keep hearing that the internal rank you get is the HSC mark you will get and I'm starting to lose hope in getting a ATAR that will give me access to uni.

From my understanding, you keep your external mark no matter what your internal rank is. Your internal mark is then the 16th highest in your cohort, with these two marks being averaged out to get your final hsc mark for your subject. Remember each is worth 50%, so if you go significantly better in the externals, this will benefit your overall mark for the subject a lot.

 

[jon1995]

Thank you! That was exactly what I was trying to understand I guess there's so hope!!!!

 

[D94]

You will not get the 16th highest HSC exam mark for your assessment mark. You assessment mark will, however, be the 16th highest, just like in school - your raw school mark is the 16th highest.

Your raw school mark will undergo moderation based on your cohort's HSC exam performance. The mark that they determine through this process is your assessment mark.

If there was ever a simple explanation...: you and every other student will do assessments and at the end, receive a school mark. This is a percentage mark, based on your performance and weightings for each assessment. Now, BOS needs to compare this mark to the school marks of students in other schools. But just comparing that singular mark to another student who did different assessments is unfair and may not be accurate. So, BOS must have a control assessment, some assessment which every student in the state does. This is obviously the HSC exams. But BOS just doesn't take the 16th highest exam mark and gives you that mark. This doesn't reflect your performance throughout the year, it just reflects the cohort's performance in one exam. Therefore, BOS requires some moderation process to fairly allocate assessment marks to students.

In this process of moderation, there are plenty of elaborate and complex calculations. BOS compares the mean/average of your raw school marks to the HSC exam marks for your school cohort. They then give first place the highest HSC exam mark as their assessment mark, and last place, the lowest HSC exam mark (or it may be slightly higher depending on further calculations). This means ALL assessment marks are within the range of the highest/lowest HSC exam marks. No one can achieve a higher or lower assessment mark respectively. This is now where your school performance is vital. Whilst many disregard school performance and just think about ranks, this is where many students misunderstand the system - there's way too much emphasis on ranks, and not enough on actual marks. BOS looks at how much you deviate from the rank above and below you. They factor this into calculating your assessment mark. For example, coming 16th by 5% puts you in a relatively better position than coming 16th by 15%. In both cases, you are ranked 16th, but the former will generally receive a higher assessment mark if all other variables are kept the same. Before moderation, your school marks are relative to your school. When BOS determines your assessment marks, these will reflect your school performance relative to the state. Essentially, you want as many marks as possible, and be as close to the mark of first place as possible.

At no stage does BOS look at your rank, unless you are first or last ranked. BOS merely looks at your mark differential and factors this into a convoluted set of calculations which you do not need to worry about.

To maximise your marks, you and your cohort must perform well in the HSC exams. IF all your HSC exam marks are within 100 down to say 90, then ALL assessment marks and thus ALL final HSC marks are within the range of 100 down to 90.

The calculations for the ATAR are completely different. Again, nothing you need to worry about - just do as well as possible in school and in the HSC exams.

 

[budwa969]

So does that mean someone 3rd from 1st by lets say 5% can still receive the highest hsc external mark and have it counted to their atar, or get 1st in the state for a subject?

 

[D94]

So does that mean someone 3rd from 1st by lets say 5% can still receive the highest hsc external mark and have it counted to their atar, or get 1st in the state for a subject?

The highest external mark is independent of your rank or your school performance. If you get a HSC exam mark of 99, then you keep that mark. The other half of your HSC mark comes from your moderated assessment mark.

As for 1st in the state, the only possible situation I can think of is if everyone in the school got the highest HSC exam mark and that mark being the highest in the state, therefore everyone's moderated assessment mark should be the same. But, BOS may deal with extra decimals, so they may moderate your assessment marks with more decimal accuracy, but of course report your mark as a whole figure. So it's very unlikely to impossible for 3rd place to achieve 1st in the state.

 

[codislife]

You will not get the 16th highest HSC exam mark for your assessment mark. You assessment mark will, however, be the 16th highest, just like in school - your raw school mark is the 16th highest.

Your raw school mark will undergo moderation based on your cohort's HSC exam performance. The mark that they determine through this process is your assessment mark.

If there was ever a simple explanation...: you and every other student will do assessments and at the end, receive a school mark. This is a percentage mark, based on your performance and weightings for each assessment. Now, BOS needs to compare this mark to the school marks of students in other schools. But just comparing that singular mark to another student who did different assessments is unfair and may not be accurate. So, BOS must have a control assessment, some assessment which every student in the state does. This is obviously the HSC exams. But BOS just doesn't take the 16th highest exam mark and gives you that mark. This doesn't reflect your performance throughout the year, it just reflects the cohort's performance in one exam. Therefore, BOS requires some moderation process to fairly allocate assessment marks to students.

In this process of moderation, there are plenty of elaborate and complex calculations. BOS compares the mean/average of your raw school marks to the HSC exam marks for your school cohort. They then give first place the highest HSC exam mark as their assessment mark, and last place, the lowest HSC exam mark (or it may be slightly higher depending on further calculations). This means ALL assessment marks are within the range of the highest/lowest HSC exam marks. No one can achieve a higher or lower assessment mark respectively. This is now where your school performance is vital. Whilst many disregard school performance and just think about ranks, this is where many students misunderstand the system - there's way too much emphasis on ranks, and not enough on actual marks. BOS looks at how much you deviate from the rank above and below you. They factor this into calculating your assessment mark. For example, coming 16th by 5% puts you in a relatively better position than coming 16th by 15%. In both cases, you are ranked 16th, but the former will generally receive a higher assessment mark if all other variables are kept the same. Before moderation, your school marks are relative to your school. When BOS determines your assessment marks, these will reflect your school performance relative to the state. Essentially, you want as many marks as possible, and be as close to the mark of first place as possible.

At no stage does BOS look at your rank, unless you are first or last ranked. BOS merely looks at your mark differential and factors this into a convoluted set of calculations which you do not need to worry about.

To maximise your marks, you and your cohort must perform well in the HSC exams. IF all your HSC exam marks are within 100 down to say 90, then ALL assessment marks and thus ALL final HSC marks are within the range of 100 down to 90.

The calculations for the ATAR are completely different. Again, nothing you need to worry about - just do as well as possible in school and in the HSC exams.

Whatttttttttttttt you sure? I've always heard your ranks + marks difference matters, not the actual mark.

 

[D94]

Whatttttttttttttt you sure? I've always heard your ranks + marks difference matters, not the actual mark.

You're going to have to point out where you think I've made a mistake in my response.

Your ranks don't actually matter. The actual marks also matter for calculating the mean of your school marks (this is compared for the purposes of moderation), and the marks difference does matter for moderation.

 

[Spiritual Being]

Whatttttttttttttt you sure? I've always heard your ranks + marks difference matters, not the actual mark.

You're correct. The numerical value of the raw mark is always moderated. I think what D94 was saying is that coming fifth with 1% behind first is better than coming second with 12% from first.

Your raw internal mark will be moderated depending on collective cohort performance. However, your internal (say you're 5th) will not necessarily be the 5th highest external mark, but will be reflective of the gaps in the raw internal.

 

[Spiritual Being]

You're going to have to point out where you think I've made a mistake in my response.

Your ranks don't actually matter. The actual marks also matter for calculating the mean of your school marks (this is compared for the purposes of moderation), and the marks difference does matter for moderation.

People get confused when you say only the mark matters, when the mark is encapsulated within the rank. I get what you're saying though, it's about the gaps between the ranks as well.

 

[D94]

People get confused when you say only the mark matters, when the mark is encapsulated within the rank. I get what you're saying though, it's about the gaps between the ranks as well.

Quite hard to explain it another way. I mean, the most common misconceptions are:

1. you receive the nth highest HSC exam mark if you are the nth rank.
2. your rank determines your mark / BOS allocates marks to ranks
3. your school's rank determines whether you can get a band 6 or 90+ ATAR

I don't know how it began but these seem to be common knowledge, albeit wrong. BOS must really explain it badly when they go to schools and explain the HSC to students in Year 10 or Year 11. If only students took time to read the links on moderation and the aligning process, there would not be so much confusion.

 

[Menomaths]

Quite hard to explain it another way. I mean, the most common misconceptions are:

1. you receive the nth highest HSC exam mark if you are the nth rank.
2. your rank determines your mark / BOS allocates marks to ranks
3. your school's rank determines whether you can get a band 6 or 90+ ATAR

I don't know how it began but these seem to be common knowledge, albeit wrong. BOS must really explain it badly when they go to schools and explain the HSC to students in Year 10 or Year 11. If only students took time to read the links on moderation and the aligning process, there would not be so much confusion.

Most widespread misconception, which I also had haha. To be honest I still don't get how that aspect of moderation works.

 

[Spiritual Being]

Quite hard to explain it another way. I mean, the most common misconceptions are:

1. you receive the nth highest HSC exam mark if you are the nth rank.
2. your rank determines your mark / BOS allocates marks to ranks
3. your school's rank determines whether you can get a band 6 or 90+ ATAR

I don't know how it began but these seem to be common knowledge, albeit wrong. BOS must really explain it badly when they go to schools and explain the HSC to students in Year 10 or Year 11. If only students took time to read the links on moderation and the aligning process, there would not be so much confusion.

What makes it worse is the widespread misunderstanding amongst the teachers - most don't know how the process works. They exert their misconceived thoughts onto the students, hence the commonality of false opinion.

 

[D94]

Yes, I get that students might not understand, but surely teachers should have a better grasp at how it works - but no, a seemingly strong majority have no idea, or don't care.

 

[braintic]

Yes, I get that students might not understand, but surely teachers should have a better grasp at how it works - but no, a seemingly strong majority have no idea, or don't care.

The only way teachers get to know about the process is by stumbling upon the same sites students do. We have never had it explained to us, other than by principals untrained in mathematics. And honestly, the mathematical ability of non maths (or science) teachers is generally lower than that of the average person who visits this site. The concepts might sound simple to us who are mathematically aware, but they are foreign to the lay person. And I have to say that it took me a number of readings before it sank in, even though it seems uncomplicated in retrospect.

 

[enoilgam]

People get confused when you say only the mark matters, when the mark is encapsulated within the rank. I get what you're saying though, it's about the gaps between the ranks as well.

I think it's just an issue of semantics really - the way I put it is that your position in the cohort helps determine your final internal mark. "Position" is made up of a combination of your rank and the relative gaps between you and everyone else.

What makes it worse is the widespread misunderstanding amongst the teachers - most don't know how the process works. They exert their misconceived thoughts onto the students, hence the commonality of false opinion.

Yes, I get that students might not understand, but surely teachers should have a better grasp at how it works - but no, a seemingly strong majority have no idea, or don't care.

It really is quite shocking - honestly, the amount of crap some teachers tell students about the HSC/ATAR is mindboggling. I could probably come up with a list of all the ridiculous stuff that I've heard both at school and on BoS. The problem is, the HSC/ATAR process is extremely complicated and if you dont understand it fully, it's easy to make false assumptions which are way off base.

 

[monieo]

What if you came last in a topic? I came last in ancient and i'm worried that it will affect my ATAR :S

 

[enoilgam]

What if you came last in a topic? I came last in ancient and i'm worried that it will affect my ATAR :S

If you are last in a subject, you will receive the bottom external mark from your cohort as your final internal mark.

 

[monieo]

I don't... quite understand that - how would it affect my final ATAR mark? For the HSC Ancient I tried very hard and i found the paper a lot easier than what i've done before. :S

 

[ZackXXT]

Suppose I had an internal assessment mark of 94. Is it possible that the performance of my cohort would result in my mark being reduced? Also assuming that my mark resulted in me being placed as Rank 1 for that particular subject mean for my external HSC Exam & my overall ATAR for that particular subject?