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Law Students: What is studying law really like? (1 Viewer)

Freyo

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Hi, I'm a current year 12 student (graduating in 2015) and I wanted to ask what life is like for current uni law students? I have been thinking about getting into law for quite some time now, and the HSC legal studies subject has been an absolute favourite since last year, however reading some of the posts on this forum made me question my decision for two reasons:

1. It seems that law degrees are a killer, with stress induced workload in every semester, while trying to balance extracurricular activities that pretty much get you a job after you graduate

2. Even when you do end up graduating, job opportunities are so competitive that most people who did double degrees at uni put their law degree on the shelf and get a job working with the other degree (e.g. commerce)

So I was wondering if there are any law students out there who might be able to answer those questions, maybe even tell us what your typical day as a law student is like and what uni you go to?
 

OzKo

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Hi, I'm a current year 12 student (graduating in 2015) and I wanted to ask what life is like for current uni law students? I have been thinking about getting into law for quite some time now, and the HSC legal studies subject has been an absolute favourite since last year, however reading some of the posts on this forum made me question my decision for two reasons:

1. It seems that law degrees are a killer, with stress induced workload in every semester, while trying to balance extracurricular activities that pretty much get you a job after you graduate

2. Even when you do end up graduating, job opportunities are so competitive that most people who did double degrees at uni put their law degree on the shelf and get a job working with the other degree (e.g. commerce)

So I was wondering if there are any law students out there who might be able to answer those questions, maybe even tell us what your typical day as a law student is like and what uni you go to?
If only that were to be true.
 

strawberrye

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Hey Freyo,
I actually understand your anxiety about studying law, I still remember when I was in year 12 I could browse through the law forums like a maniac and essentially the overall picture I could get about what studying a law degree was like is a depressing one with essentially the same characteristics that you have managed to summarise. I guess there really isn't a typical day of a law student, it depends also on what degree you are considering of combining law with, for me, I go to UNSW, and we have small classes instead of big lectures where we have assigned readings to do from the prescribed textbook every lesson and we could make notes on those readings before going into class and discuss what the cases and concepts in the readings were about. Hence, law is probably the only subject where you can't come to a lecture unprepared, if you haven't done your readings before the lecture, you will find yourself very rapidly lost in what the teacher or other students are talking about.

In many ways, unsurprisingly, law is a very stressful degree. It is certainly not a degree where you can do say 9 weeks of readings in advance and think you will be sweet for your notes, since you need to revise over your notes all the time to make them 'exam ready'-summarising what the textbook says will not cut it-but how to argue in law and think critically as well as writing 'exam ready' notes will be a skill that you will gradually accumulate as you study law so there is no need to worry too much. You need to embrace the learning curve in many ways, legal studies is not exactly identical to law in uni, in legal studies you learn a lot about effectiveness of a particular law reform, but in law, you need to delve into what the actual piece of legislation states and how to apply it to hypothetical problems. Hence to excel in law, you have to develop a strong ability to raise an argument for, and then deconstruct that argument by a counterargument-it is a bit like arguing with yourself, but just for every single case, and then determining how to RESOLVE that argument by deciding which side has the stronger case. I think the coming to an conclusion part is the most challenging and takes time to master.

In a way, what I was surprised about when I entered a law degree wasn't the amount of readings I had to do, but the importance of consistency. Law is a subject where you need to work very hard at regardless how much assessments you have at the moment or what part of the term you are in simply because it is a very demanding degree. Another thing I discovered is the extremely competitive nature of law students, as in, even for class participation points, you need to fight to put your hand up early enough to be noticed for an input, and that input is expected to be an intelligent and critical viewpoint of the material rather than just merely summarising the material. Law is very pedantic about the use of particular words, and sometimes it can drive you a bit crazy where by convention, two phrases usually share similar meaning, but in law, there will be a pertinent need to differentiate them, e.g. a risk of great injury is different from a great risk of injury. Even outside of class, there is countless opportunities for internal and external competitions whether it be mooting, negotiations or client interviewing or essay writing competitions, there seems to be endless chances for you to develop your practical skills as an aspiring lawyer and compete with a very competitive cohort outside of the classroom. There is also a persistent desire to get a law internship to gain some work experience to enhance one's employability in this industry in the future.

What you need to keep in mind is to keep your options a bit open, since 50% of law graduates actually don't end up being a lawyer. But from your articulation of how much you liked legal studies, it will assist you to enjoy your studies of law but not necessarily, since the nature of the courses do differ quite significantly. Unlike the HSC, for many law courses, you will have open book exams, hence making really good notes is of paramount importance in excelling, there isn't much rote learning, you need to develop a skill to apply the law, and this really can't be developed regardless of how many law studies guides you read-personal experience, you have to actually start studying the law to develop it.

Law is not quite as grim as perhaps some of the forum posts on this forum has portrayed it to be, if you managed to meet the right people, the study of law can be tough, but also because of its demanding nature, can allow the formation of very strong friendships as you share resources and study together. To excel in law, at least in UNSW, you need to be willing to share your ideas, rather than fearing they are stupid and never articulating them out, because this is the only way to gain class participation points which accounts for a substantial 20% of the course marks. There are different types of assessments in law, some may be a court observation assignment where you go to court and observe civil/criminal cases and discuss your observations in light of what you are studying right now-i.e. by writing a court observation report, there will be hypothetical question assignments where you are given a hypothetical problem-usually one or two pages long-and you have to apply the law to advise different parties in the question about the likely outcome and explain why, there is also final exams-where often involve theoretical problem and writing essays. For first semester of law in UNSW, you also need to complete a 10% component related to legal research methods where you are introduced to how to use legal databases to search for cases relevant to a particular topic area and journal articles.

For some law students, particular those combining it with arts or commerce or international studies, they usually have two to three days off from uni, and hence more time to study than say, if you combined law with science or engineering or actuarial studies. The most important thing in law is to keep an open mind, don't have a stubborn opinion and always be willing to listen to the perspectives of others and critically evaluate the strength of their argument. What you get out of your law degree is essentially what you make of it, it is up to you to decide how much competitions you participate in-many competitions requires a partner, so it might be a good idea to make friends before joining to have better teamwork, how deeply you do your readings-don't think readings are just read through say 40 pages and you are done, you physically need to understand every single sentence of what you read, for cases, you could be expected to do case briefs involving the material facts-the facts relevant to why a case is determined a certain way, you will be surprised to know that the names of the parties or the date that the case happened often is not relevant to the material facts, application of law-the judges reasoning, often there are multiple judges, and you need to summarise their reasoning individually-not as easy as you think, sometimes the way judges speak is very convoluted, they can spend pages talking about essentially what can be articulated in the same sentence.

I personally quite enjoyed the challenge of studying a law degree, although I am currently performing much better in the science component of my degree than my law one. In UNSW, you have LAWPLUS and law peer mentoring programs which are designed to assist first years to make a smooth transition into their law degree, and I found both to be of an immense help. Law can also be frustrating because the law itself is rapidly changing, so the experiences of different generations of law students-in regards of the content they have learnt will be very different, so you need to keep up to date with any changes in the law and always embrace the fact that what you are learning is not a static body of knowledge, but rather a dynamic, ever evolving body, one which you can have the power to make changes. Law is all about ambiguities, not certainties, it is all about forming an appreciation of the current shortcomings and loopholes in the law so that you are empowered to have the capacities to propose changes and reforms to make it better and fairer for all.
 

neo o

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I spent most of my time at uni drinking, playing MMOs and chasing girls. Graduated with a decent average in law. People tend to have different approaches to studying. There are people who are extremely thorough. This pays off for some people, other people just stress themselves out without accomplishing anything. You can do well by just studying some key readings and concepts. If you understand how things fit together holistically you'll be fine. There really isn't that much work, law students just like to talk themselves up.

The problem with law is that you pay more in HECS, you sacrifice one to two years of work by having to study a five year degree, and there's a good chance you'll have to pay more money to take a Graduate Diploma to even work as a lawyer (depending on whether you land a graduate job in the industry or not). That's a high financial cost. Jobs in the industry are very thin. Conditions aren't great. Hours are long. Workplaces are brutal. Salaries are terrible. Good news, the work can sometimes be interesting. There are very limited graduate jobs at firms and consultancy companies. There are some roles in the public sector, but working in public isn't particularly rewarding unless you land somewhere like AGS. That leaves people using their other degree or working tedious jobs in compliance and risk management.

The reality is that annually you have 12,000 graduates entering a market of 60,000 lawyers where only around 5% of those graduates will get jobs in tier firms. People throw around the '50% of lawyers won't even use their degree' one-liner (in my estimation it's higher than that anyway) to try and market law as a generalist degree, but in reality, it's a vocational degree, and these are all people who just couldn't find a job with their law degree.

Changes in the industry don't bode well for the future either. Basic functions that baby lawyers cut their teeth on like document review are going to be automated or outsourced.

Extra-curricular activities don't land you a job. You'll have a better shot at landing a graduate job with previous work experience. Something alpha like a black belt in a martial arts will give you something to talk about in your interview, but people don't really care.

Don't worry about the degree, it's as easy or as hard as you want to make it. Worry about what comes afterwards. If you end up going down the law road, make sure you start working at a firm as a paralegal/secretary or in a sales job from day dot. Get written references when you leave jobs. 5 years of working should give you a better shot than most.
 
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RivalryofTroll

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Note: I've only been through my first year of combined law - so really, my answer can't hold a candle to a 5th year student or graduate.

1. It seems that law degrees are a killer, with stress induced workload in every semester, while trying to balance extracurricular activities that pretty much get you a job after you graduate

As previously mentioned, extracurricular activities are just a small part of how you ''sell'' yourself in the job market. Also, as mentioned, it seems that relevant legal experience is apparently more attractive.

Anyways, on the topic of ''stress'' and balancing ''extracurricular activities'' with your study workload - in my view, it really depends on what type of marks you're looking for and how involved you are. The higher you aim, the more you'll stress. The more extracurricular activities you take on, the more you'll stress.

Stress is inevitable as a university student (mainly during assessment and examination periods) but statistics have indicated that law students, as compared to the general population and students in other degrees, are more prone to stress and even worse, depression.

Why? There are plenty of reasons. Maybe because law students tend to be overly competitive (I mean with the current state of the legal industry, you can understand why). Maybe because law students tend to have ''perfectionist''-type attitude towards their studies, their involvement in extracurricular activities and so on. Maybe because law students tend to think that they can do everything by themselves (when in fact, they need help - especially in such a demanding discipline like law).

2. Even when you do end up graduating, job opportunities are so competitive that most people who did double degrees at uni put their law degree on the shelf and get a job working with the other degree (e.g. commerce)

So I was wondering if there are any law students out there who might be able to answer those questions, maybe even tell us what your typical day as a law student is like and what uni you go to?


I won't go into details (because I'm not an expert myself) but in short, a law degree will be useful (and attractive) even if you do not end up in legal practice. According to statistics, I believe around 50% to 2/3 of law students do not end up in legal practice.

First year of Business/Law at UTS
First year of combined law isn't too demanding, in terms of the law side. As a Business/Law student, you'll most likely do 6 Business or Commerce subjects and 2 law subjects in your first year (across 2 semesters). This means you won't have a good taste of law just yet (in second year and the subsequent years, you'll have a better taste of it).

At UTS, I did ''Foundations of Law'' (an introductory type subject) and ''Ethics Law and Justice'' (the ethics subject that USYD and UNSW students do in their third year).

I know at USYD and UNSW, law students did a ''Foundations'' subject and Torts (a second year subject at UTS) in their first year.

Generally, most students will feel that the law component of their combined degree is significantly more demanding than the other component (I think this is especially true if you're doing Commerce/Law). Most students will attain higher marks in their other component. For Commerce/Law students, Commerce and Law have relatively similar contact hours but the discipline of law will probably require more ''outside university hours'' (a lot of this will be dedicated to your readings).

Not going to lie - I barely did my readings for Foundations and made exam notes during the week before the final exam (as a result, it would be my worst mark for the year - then again, it's a difficult subject in my view). I was more consistent for Ethics with my readings and final exam notes (as a result, I did well in it) but I still fell behind after a few weeks. I suspect that I was just more dedicated to my business subjects for first year and hope that I will be more consistent in second year.

Law exams at UTS are open-book (I think it's the same at UNSW, meanwhile USYD has closed-book exams from what I heard) - which means you should really make concise notes on your textbook material and readings.

As for the rest of my law student life:
- I've done Mooting and Negotiation competitions this year. They're great fun. Mooting requires more preparation so I only recommend it if you know you're willing to invest time in it.
- Sleep deprivation? Yeah but it's not due to law. Then again, we'll see once I hit the later years of a combined law degree.
- Started to watch Suits this year because of law school. I totally recommend it to future law students who haven't watch it as of now. Makes a good conversation topic as well. Apparently ''To Kill a Mockingbird'' is a good read too.
- It's been stressful (and it'll probably get worse) but I've really enjoyed law school so far and I'm really glad that I didn't do a different combined business or commerce degree. Law is an interesting discipline and all but I think the other aspects of law school are even better (the competitions are totally worth doing).
- Get your coffee/energy drinks ready for those assignments (I don't recommend them for exams), be prepared to do assignments the night before and last-minute study for exams and really - embrace the opportunity to attend law school.

http://survivelaw.com/ - the blogs here are a good read if you're totally bored.
 

Freyo

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So I'm kicking myself in the head right now because I was writing this extreeemely long reply but I accidentally pressed back aaaaand it's gone.. So I'm gonna keep this short and simple. Sorry for the short reply, I actually dedicated a large part of it just thanking you for all your awesome replies so far and it still didn't do you justice.

Firstly, I wanna start with thanking all of you for taking the time to write this, your responses have been very very beneficial and it really gave me a different perspective on studying law. Most of you explained how staying consistent in studying a law degree is a must and it requires a lot of effort and is relatively more time consuming than other degrees. I'm generally a dedicated student who take their studying very seriously and so I don't think the stress is going to be the deal-breaker for me.

It seems that the real issue with law however is the number of job opportunities available. A quick search on seek on junior corporate lawyers returned many job opportunities and so where is the issue? Is is that there are a large number of graduates applying for the same jobs or is it that the firms themselves don't usually offer that many jobs? In other words, is the problem in proving yourself during your time at uni or is it that there isn't even that many jobs to begin with? Also what does the future for law look like? Is it getting better with more businesses offering more job opportunities (especially in corporate law) or are the jobs gradually being replaced by technology like some claim in other threads?
 

neo o

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Those advertisements on Seek would generally be chasing lawyers with 2 years PAE (post admission experience). Basically, when you graduate from law, you complete your GDLP (either through your employer if you get a graduate job or independently). That takes 6 months if you do it independently or usually a year if you do it through a firm. After that, you get admitted. You are now on your lawyer P plates. You need to be supervised by another lawyer for 2 years through your employment.

Generally employers are looking for juniors who are off their P plates. Once you hit that 2 year milestone you're fine, the challenge is getting there. That doesn't help with the particular workplace challenges with law, but it means you won't have as much trouble finding work. Employers don't want to spend the time and money training P plater lawyers, so graduate programs have been shrinking and are also uber-competitive, and it's less competitive at the 2-5 years of practise mark in many fields.

Automation is going to happen. It's hard to say what the impact will be in the next 5 years, but you need to look to the long term because the degree takes a long time to complete.

M8ty, studying law is all about a few basic skills. That's what I mean when I say that if you understand things holistically you'll be fine. You generally just need to spot issues in problems, and figure out how case and statute law you learned in class would apply to those problems. It isn't hard. If you write up a good week by week summary (or even one in the fortnight before the exams) you can get through law school with a good average.

Practise is very different to studying. If you're a junior at a smaller firm, you'll need to be process orientated and very organised. You'll need to keep track of dates, keep solid files and records, and make sure that everything is moving along. At a larger firm you'll start off doing things that are fairly routine. In government you'll mostly be picking your nose, but writing skills help there because you're going to need to write alot of advices. That's why it's good to get a start as a secretary/paralegal or in sales. You'll either get the organisational skills you need, or get the big swinging dick swagger from a sales job that will impress interviewers and clients. Shit, if you can find a job doing either of those things while you're still in highschool you should get on it now (i.e. got any mates with lawyer parents in small firms who can give you some work over holidays?).
 
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neo o

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Also, just for the record, I graduated a long time ago. I've done private and public, and I'm in legal recruitment now. Also becoming an accountant next year :(
 

Freyo

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Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you all so much for your help, not just for me, but for everyone else considering studying law one day. I'm definitely going to consider law as well as other options based on your amazing responses that will sure come in handy in making the final decision.

P.s. I do watch suits actually, can't wait for the new season! :D and if you haven't already, watch How to get away with Murder, it's actually amazing!
 

wannaspoon

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Once you have past first year, it's all up hill from there...

First year for me was definitely a wake up call, in terms of learning how to do things right... After that, you find your own formula for doing well and stick to it...

Finding a good group is always good, helps you with assignments and study... Not only that, it makes things a hell of a lot more fun and makes you want to go into uni... Other than that, my uni life mainly consisted of: getting drunk after classes; eating at this restaurant near my uni called "Don Don's" (dirt cheap and good food); and other "things..." :)

It was a good couple of years (except the first year)
 

Daniellemc

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Thank You this is very helpful for myself who was contemplating what studying law would be like. Like Freyo I my Self is loving legal studies and have a part time job at a traffic offenders intervention program so I'm already faced with real life problems. I'm getting the feeling that the first few days starting will be very confronting and stressful but will get better with time
 

isildurrrr1

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I'm doing a JD at UNSW now and all I can say, bye to lyfes. you gotta manage your time well for this shit having 4 law subjects at the same time. You get thrown into the deep end. Best protip: learn to make GOOD exam notes an PREWRITE exams so it's just auto-pilot.

DW too much about midsem grades because they're graded on a much stricter standard than exams. I got a credit for one of my midsems, and final mark was a distinction.
 

treescape

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Best protip: learn to make GOOD exam notes an PREWRITE exams so it's just auto-pilot.
I'll second time management and prewriting exam notes. Time management is super important to be able to get through all your reading, and prewriting your exam notes means you will actually be able to finish your exams in time (also called an exam script).
 

Sherlock

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This thread is really helpful.

I'm currently an arts student at Sydney. I planned to transfer to law next year. However, considering how I'm going this semester, I don't think I'll be able to. Sometimes, I question if law is even right for me - I got an ATAR of 90 and the cut-off for law is really high (particularly at USYD and UNSW, even at UTS and Macquarie).

I was wondering if I should study law next year at Macquarie or UTS next year and then try to transfer for USYD and/or UNSW next year - basically going down the line rivalryoftroll went down into. Or, should I study arts at USYD/UNSW and try to transfer from there again (UNSW has 100 places for internal transfers). Thoughts?
 
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treescape

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I was wondering if I should study law next year at Macquarie or UTS next year and then try to transfer for USYD and/or UNSW next year - basically going down the line rivalryoftroll went down into. Or, should I study arts at USYD/UNSW and try to transfer from there again (UNSW has 100 places for internal transfers). Thoughts?
Why not apply to Macquarie and UTS, and if you get accepted, you can make the decision at that point. If you don't get accepted, then just stick with arts at UNSW and see if you can get your marks up to get an internal transfer. Seems like the easiest path to me?
 

ameher

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Those advertisements on Seek would generally be chasing lawyers with 2 years PAE (post admission experience). Basically, when you graduate from law, you complete your GDLP (either through your employer if you get a graduate job or independently). That takes 6 months if you do it independently or usually a year if you do it through a firm. After that, you get admitted. You are now on your lawyer P plates. You need to be supervised by another lawyer for 2 years through your employment.

Generally employers are looking for juniors who are off their P plates. Once you hit that 2 year milestone you're fine, the challenge is getting there. That doesn't help with the particular workplace challenges with law, but it means you won't have as much trouble finding work. Employers don't want to spend the time and money training P plater lawyers, so graduate programs have been shrinking and are also uber-competitive, and it's less competitive at the 2-5 years of practise mark in many fields.

Automation is going to happen. It's hard to say what the impact will be in the next 5 years, but you need to look to the long term because the degree takes a long time to complete.

M8ty, studying law is all about a few basic skills. That's what I mean when I say that if you understand things holistically you'll be fine. You generally just need to spot issues in problems, and figure out how case and statute law you learned in class would apply to those problems. It isn't hard. If you write up a good week by week summary (or even one in the fortnight before the exams) you can get through law school with a good average.

Practise is very different to studying. If you're a junior at a smaller firm, you'll need to be process orientated and very organised. You'll need to keep track of dates, keep solid files and records, and make sure that everything is moving along. At a larger firm you'll start off doing things that are fairly routine. In government you'll mostly be picking your nose, but writing skills help there because you're going to need to write alot of advices. That's why it's good to get a start as a secretary/paralegal or in sales. You'll either get the organisational skills you need, or get the big swinging dick swagger from a sales job that will impress interviewers and clients. Shit, if you can find a job doing either of those things while you're still in highschool you should get on it now (i.e. got any mates with lawyer parents in small firms who can give you some work over holidays?).
I cannot like this post enough. As a current practising lawyer about to hit the 2 year mark, your summation of where the profession is at and how it all works is amazing.

Quality post!
 

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