Level of maths for the average commerce grad? (1 Viewer)

[Cookie182]

just a quck query as im gathering most of us are commerce students, but i was wondering how much general mathematical comprehension a commerce grad has these days (assuming they don't do a double degree in mathematics or a specialised degree like mathematical finance)

I do commerce/law, but that only allows for one major and at UOW the most mathematical is economics but even then i have concerns that i will be mathematically adpt to basically enter any career (either finance or otherwise).

For instance, are many of you (particulalry 1st/2nd years) comfortable with probability, financial calculus and even financial derivative pricing models- such as deriving the Black-Scholes model for option pricing, pricing euro/american call/puts, exotics... and also optimization theory, mathematical games etc etc

im currently trying to teach myself this shit out of a supposedly 'beginner textbook' but ive only ever done 2 unit math in high school and am already completley lost lol

any ideas on how to 'teach it yourself'? What mathematics should i attempt to learn as building blocks-?? Should i get a 3/4 unit maths book for the HSC and maybe learna few things or are many of the high school topics non-applicable in this area??

thanks

 

[velox]

Most commerce students aren't very good at maths, since finance doesnt teach you how to solve problems empirically. Just pick up a good financial maths textbook, go to your library and have a look. I'd probably do some reading on statistics first. First/2nd year should be ok.

 

[§eraphim]

1) In you case, I wouldn't bother with your limited mathematical maturity up to 2U. You need to have experience doing harder problems to tackle more difficulty material. A better path is BSc (Maths)/LLB then a Masters in Financial Maths.
2) I don't see the point of studying financial maths and law - there is no clear advantage. You will be outclassed by candidates with more relevant qualifications.

 

[Hakz]

You wont need super 3/4 units of maths for a commerce(economics) degree. If you do econometrics or math n econ then yes you will need a higher level of maths. Also first year commerce stuff aint that hard if you work for it, economics first year subjects (at uow) is just graphs and simple maths. Theory plays the major role.

 

[BackCountrySnow]

I made a thread a while back about the level of maths required for econometrics.

A lot of people said 2u is suffice.

 

[Cookie182]

1) In you case, I wouldn't bother with your limited mathematical maturity up to 2U. You need to have experience doing harder problems to tackle more difficulty material. A better path is BSc (Maths)/LLB then a Masters in Financial Maths.
2) I don't see the point of studying financial maths and law - there is no clear advantage. You will be outclassed by candidates with more relevant qualifications.

yea i definately agree- even though im not bad at learning new maths, my only formal background is 2 unit and jumping into this stuff is extremely tough. Moreover, im only learinng it causually anyway as i have a general interest in it. Was wondering what degree you do Seraphim? Im guessing its quant based??

 

[Cookie182]

You wont need super 3/4 units of maths for a commerce(economics) degree. If you do econometrics or math n econ then yes you will need a higher level of maths. Also first year commerce stuff aint that hard if you work for it, economics first year subjects (at uow) is just graphs and simple maths. Theory plays the major role.

Yea that is my main concern though with UOW- i wanna learn higher level maths and am finding that all the first year comm subjects so far are very scant on maths- just basic graphs, which arent difficult at all. I like commerce though and law so im not changing to a science based degree, i would of went to the UNSW (heard their comm program is more mathematical) but obviously the 99.3 or watever entry was steep.

Would you say that out of all the majors economics gives you the most quantitative options? I know you do QM2 and was wondering wat level of maths that is equivalent to?

 

[Hakz]

Yea that is my main concern though with UOW- i wanna learn higher level maths and am finding that all the first year comm subjects so far are very scant on maths- just basic graphs, which arent difficult at all. I like commerce though and law so im not changing to a science based degree, i would of went to the UNSW (heard their comm program is more mathematical) but obviously the 99.3 or watever entry was steep.

Would you say that out of all the majors economics gives you the most quantitative options? I know you do QM2 and was wondering wat level of maths that is equivalent to?

Well yes i reckon economics will be the most quantative. Im not sure how QM2 is however ive been told from friends that QM1 is hard. I did a subject called "Understanding Variation and Uncertainty" (stat131) and its equavilant to QM1. I found it ok and got a credit with little work, but the lecturer told us in the start that there is a large failure rate for this subject. The content was some 3 unit maths and interpreting graphs, probability, possion distribution etc. Maybe i found it ok as i did 2/3 unit maths.
But as long as ur not doing any mathxxx subjects, then youll be fine. On the other hand math141 was crazy compared to stat131/QM1.

 

[blakegman]

UOW commerce subjects are easy compared to USYD and UNSW, especially mathematically.

 

[§eraphim]

Commerce spoonfeeds plug-in methods for your to use blindly. Maths explains and proves theory.

Most interesting topics like Applied Probability require a basic mastery of statistical theory, linear algebra and multivariable calculus. Furthermore, to learn financial maths properly you then need to do more pure maths and stats, eg measure theory, analysis, stochastic processes. Don't think that if you can memorise the book by Hull you understand martingale pricing theory - it's watered down to teach MBA students. The field requires an enormous amount of background knowledge and reading as it covers so many areas of mathematics, eg PDEs, stochastic calculus, functional analysis, etc

I did Maths & Finance at UNSW.

 

[Hakz]

oh ye maths is just wonderful.....

 

[Cookie182]

Commerce spoonfeeds plug-in methods for your to use blindly. Maths explains and proves theory.

Most interesting topics like Applied Probability require a basic mastery of statistical theory, linear algebra and multivariable calculus. Furthermore, to learn financial maths properly you then need to do more pure maths and stats, eg measure theory, analysis, stochastic processes. Don't think that if you can memorise the book by Hull you understand martingale pricing theory - it's watered down to teach MBA students. The field requires an enormous amount of background knowledge and reading as it covers so many areas of mathematics, eg PDEs, stochastic calculus, functional analysis, etc

I did Maths & Finance at UNSW.

lol thanks for realistically crushing my hopes...i have the book by Hull hahaha

but yea your absolutely right- unless ur a 1 in a million genius, you cant just pick up a book on an advanced area of mathematics and instantley understand it

as u mentioned earlier, this lvl of maths is mostly irrelevant to my degree i just have a personal interest in it

are there any areas of maths that you think one can teach themselves (assuming they are an above average student)???

 

[§eraphim]

What is above average? To be frank, from what I've seen in finance a UAI like yours is below average. You need to transfer to the metropolitan universities to see the elite people who you can tell are destined to be Finance people.

Do Econometrics with your Economics. You will learn some useful statistics, but of course diluted for Commerce people.

 

[3li]

yea seraphim is right

if u want to have quant skills u need to look at the top students

a good e.g. are the finance coops who got 99.7+

i got 99.25 and didnt make the cut but the pt is that even if u got lower, u can still work ur way up

if u want to get into the industry i suggest u look for a D-HD average in a the abovementioend majors, or at least get relevant work experience, to make up for ur lower-than-average uai

for e.g. if u want a summer internship u have alot more chance to get an interview if u do a relevant degree and excel (80+ wam)

 

[Cookie182]

k

geez though is it that competitive, the way u speak is like my UAI is 70 or sumthing lol

and it is not a straight out measure of intelligence or interest in the industry either

but i guess u's are onli being realistic, but still...

 

[Hakz]

As if someone with a 97 uai is dum compared to someone with a 99 uai LOL. What 2 or 3 marks extra in hsc subjects makes the +2 uai, so it means nothing in uni terms.

 

[Cookie182]

As if someone with a 97 uai is dum compared to someone with a 99 uai LOL. What 2 or 3 marks extra in hsc subjects makes the +2 uai, so it means nothing in uni terms.

thanks,

plus yea i completely underperformed in the actual hsc just got really stressed/sick- if i had it over, i reckon that in at least 3 subjects i could of gain any where to 5 or more marks

Your absolutely correct, a few differences in uai doesnt indicate a major difference in intelligence and most importantly the ability to learn. Some kids who got high 80's UAI slaughter me at uni and i know 99 kids who struggle

 

[Hakz]

Ye thats how it is, uni is very different to high school. The advantage of a high uai is that it enables you to easily enter or change courses but the rest is up to you.

 

[§eraphim]

A lot of you are talking crap. They hire people with a suitable combination of smarts and salesmanship, and as there are a handful of jobs they only hire those in the top tail so there is a big relative difference between a 97 and 99.5+ UAI. Thus, the merits of the UAI system is that it's not about the ABSOLUTE difference in aggregate marks between students, but a RELATIVE measure, ie, ranking measure which fairly and methodically scales the marks around for qualitative factors such as the level of difficulty of the subjects and the no. of good students in each subject. In the end, you basically have to beat other people for the job, so only relative measures are important.

Also, those who are in the industry can speak realistically. It is better to face the facts, and plan your career path appropriately give your level of skills, abilities, etc, rather than to waste years on a pipedream.

Note that actuarial/finance co-op students are getting a big majority of the IB grad jobs this year as the market is so down and there are fewer places. So yeah, it further supports the argument that 99.5+ UAI is a requirement.

Also, there is no point bringing in examples which are exceptions to the rule. Logic tells you that UAI is one of the most important predictors, especially given the small no. of quality roles relative to the huge no. of applications and the rigorous screening practices, and this is confirmed by the type of people getting accepted into these jobs.

 

[3li]

nice way to put it seraphim

but to the op who is interested in this field let me put it to u lightly,

i wasnt saying ur dumb cos of ur uai - or that lower uai ppl are dumber - im talking about the achievements required to graduate successfuly into these fields.

if u are interseted in this field, it is competitive and although u may think u underperformed in the hsc, let me say that u have to make up for it with higher marks to stand a chance against others. there are more HD average, 99+ uai, people w/ lots of industry experience, than there are ib grad positions. so if some of them get cut, a uai of 97 is more likely to get u cut.

a good e.g. is this - summer internships usually hire penultimate year from a range of disciplines where they like to take into account uai, wam etc. unfortunately if u were working in a bank like deutsche bank, unless your application demonstrated a uai of 98+ in 2007, you needed to get a D average to get a 1st round interview in , and db is just an example on behalf of other ibs. (i worked there)

i dont think we're trying to put u down with ur uai, but we are just saying that this industry is hard to get into esp now, so u gotta work ur butt off to reap the rewards.

if ur not taking this in now, dw i understand, but ull wake up to it halfway thru uni.