Med Camp @ UNSW (3 Viewers)

[GeorgesBorges]

What is this I hear about 1st year MedCamp?

 

[partelephant]

What about it?

P.S. Go.

 

[Wooz]

http://community.boredofstudies.org/332/medicine-medical-health-studies/100498/med-camp-unsw.html

An old post about some of the activities. Prepare to see heaps of curries and asians in your med cohort.

 

[partelephant]

Shouldn't be a problem considering I'm almost certain that he's Asian =P

 

[Wooz]

yeh, what about you? I hope your not curry or asian.

 

[KFunk]

It is definately worth doing from a social perspective. It's a great opportunity to make friends and to 'break the ice', so to speak, with all the people you'll be studying with.

 

[partelephant]

yeh, what about you? I hope your not curry or asian.

Why not?

 

[Wooz]

Why not?

From what i've seen, the majority of them have been forced to do it by pushy parents(oh i've seen so many indian kids dragged to med info sessions, forced to do umat, bullied by parents into med or law so that they can fill their own aspirations of their children), also the influx of asian/ethinic students reduces the racial demographic of the current medical profession, this is a concern in some areas esp from rural areas where people may not be comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors and doctors of different faiths in particular islam and with cultral barriers and misunderstanding, hopefully these grudges will dissipate in the near future. Not that im racist or anything, but i am. Jks. Some people are also doing med for the wrong reasons.

What i hate the most is the many student's who do medicine 'not to waste their uai's' and only are doing it coz they can, i had about 8 of them at my school and since they've been rejected first round after being interviewed and they've seriously given up(and gone for completely different aspirations, careers), but I was the only one not to give up on my own aspirations.

I know im stereotyping atm, but this does not apply to everyone but many prospective med students that i have spoken to over the past few years. It just makes me angry, when is see people who have just missed out on undergrad places have to go the full gauntlet into med, esp from where i live. It makes me boil whin i think of my uncle who has practised for over 35 years in the hawkesbury and no one wants to come out here to practice. He hasn't even been able to have a proper holiday or break in the last 10 years unless another local doctor or local locum takes his patients. Just goes to show the unwillingness of many metropolitan doctors to work in greater western sydney, remote and rural areas.

BTW: Did you know since last month there are no longer any Australian surgeons willing to work in rural Australia and that Japanese and Thai buddhist doctors and dentists on humanitarian good will missions are the only ones providing a service to the most remote apart from RFDS(which only has one dentist serving rural Australia and all she can do is extractions, due to the lack of resources and funding). Just goes to show the extent of the problems of Australia's health system, not to mention the 14,000 preventitive deaths that occur in our hospitals annually(Thankyou Mr Howard).

Sorry, i've just been pissed off this week and havin side-affects from meds. *feels like my head is gonna explode* Stay away from SSRI's kids

 

[ArgueEverything]

From what i've seen, the majority of them have been forced to do it by pushy parents(oh i've seen so many indian kids dragged to med info sessions, forced to do umat, bullied by parents into med or law so that they can fill their own aspirations of their children), also the influx of asian/ethinic students reduces the racial demographic of the current medical profession, this is a concern in some areas esp from rural areas where people may not be comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors and doctors of different faiths in particular islam and with cultral barriers and misunderstanding, hopefully these grudges will dissipate in the near future. Not that im racist or anything, but i am. Jks. Some people are also doing med for the wrong reasons.

"From what you've seen", meaning at most the dozen or so "curries" and asians you've spoken to about this issue? That would be a dozen out of several hundred, not a fantastic sample size on which to base your virulent strand of bigotry.

And wow, you even managed to drag Islam into it - despite the fact that very few Indian med students, and almost no East Asian med students are Muslim (It tickles me how prejudiced people, such as yourself, drag Muslims into any debate, no matter how irrelevant - It reminds me of when Dana Vale segwayed Islam in the debate over the abortifacent RU486, arguing that legalising the drug would allow Muslims to out-populate white Australia. Hah.) Guess what buddy, with the shortage of primary care doctors that this country is facing, we'll be needing every transexual Rastafarian lesbian doctor we can get, no matter how much it hurts the sensitivities of local rural populations.

On the subject of prejudice in rural areas, though, this "problem" is vastly overrated - Indian GPs in particular have been working in rural Australia for many years now, and the communities are almost without exception thankful for the medical service they would otherwise be without. As you (somewhat strangely) bring up yourself, many rural areas are now almost solely dependent on voluntary work being provided by *drumroll* ASIAN doctors for much of the year.

If you think that Indians and Asians are the only people who have parental career pressure applied on them, you really have been blinded by your own prejudice. Of course some people are doing med for the wrong reasons - this has been the case for as long as Medicine has been one of the most respected and potentially lucrative professions in our society. Did you know that only 20 years ago, you would automatically get a medical interview to many universities in the Western World if your father or mother was an an alumni to that university? (NB: this was before the days of "curries" and Asians in Western universities). Secrecy, nepotism, flagrant self-interest and profit-seeking has been part and parcel of medicine since its inception. Pointing this out and railing against it is fine. Turning it into a racial issue without any basis, is not, and makes you a racist, or very close to one.

 

[Steth0scope]

If you think that Indians and Asians are the only people who have parental career pressure applied on them, you really have been blinded by your own prejudice. Of course some people are doing med for the wrong reasons - this has been the case for as long as Medicine has been one of the most respected and potentially lucrative professions in our society. Did you know that only 20 years ago, you would automatically get a medical interview to many universities in the Western World if your father or mother was an an alumni to that university? (NB: this was before the days of "curries" and Asians in Western universities). Secrecy, nepotism, flagrant self-interest and profit-seeking has been part and parcel of medicine since its inception. Pointing this out and railing against it is fine. Turning it into a racial issue without any basis, is not, and makes you a racist, or very close to one.

.

 

[RogueAcademic]

also the influx of asian/ethinic students reduces the racial demographic of the current medical profession, this is a concern in some areas esp from rural areas where people may not be comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors and doctors of different faiths in particular islam and with cultral barriers and misunderstanding, hopefully these grudges will dissipate in the near future. Not that im racist or anything, but i am. Jks.

If people from rural areas are not comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors of different faiths, then it serves them right. No one is forcing them to go to these less-than-human doctors.

How must it feel, to have to depend on a 'curry' or an asian or god forbid a muslim, when they've got no other caucasian Christian doctor to go to?

I pity the fool...

...no actually I don't.

 

[Wooz]

"From what you've seen", meaning at most the dozen or so "curries" and asians you've spoken to about this issue? That would be a dozen out of several hundred, not a fantastic sample size on which to base your virulent strand of bigotry.

No i've spoken to quite a few dozen parents, academic staff at JCU, UMelb, UNSW and UWS and students. Also i have said many any parents share extremely high expectations of their children, but it is mainly in ethnic, asian and indian students as it is a cultral/social expectation and I respect that. I have also talked to a high number of prospective students because I have obtained the rights to republish a prospective med students guide from the AGPS and i am in the process of collecting info over the next 2-3 years. I have even flown to regional centres in the last two years to exp the problems of rural medicine. For the last two years i have been liasing with the RAAF(3 Combat AeroMedical, RAAF Richmond) and yeh they've flown me out to a few RAAF bases and airports; Wagga, Tamworth, Brisbane and Townsville to exp the medical facilities, expertise, regional medicine and aviation medicine. So I think im well informed to give my own judgement. Also, there was a news article in the smh about dozens of students mainly of foreign background(and no im not being racist here either, it's just reality) breaking down and confessing they didn't want to do medicnie in the UNSW interviews. I'll do my best to find it in my folder archives.

And wow, you even managed to drag Islam into it - despite the fact that very few Indian med students, and almost no East Asian med students are Muslim (It tickles me how prejudiced people, such as yourself, drag Muslims into any debate, no matter how irrelevant - It reminds me of when Dana Vale segwayed Islam in the debate over the abortifacent RU486, arguing that legalising the drug would allow Muslims to out-populate white Australia. Hah.) Guess what buddy, with the shortage of primary care doctors that this country is facing, we'll be needing every transexual Rastafarian lesbian doctor we can get, no matter how much it hurts the sensitivities of local rural populations.

I founded my arguments based on current affairs(from QLD newspapers, from the last 2 years)and speaking to a pediatrician and a Reg at Nepean hospital and they found it very un-nerving working with the many middle-eastern doctors at Nepean. Also at Blacktown (Usyd training hospital) my uncles bestfriend is the Usyd Ccinical assessor and yeh he finds the proportion of foreign medico's and students alarming. Also it's quite evident that many people dispise Islam however i do not, this is because of their own held prejudices esp after 9/11, considering that you are well informed you would know about the controversy in Camden of a proposed Islamic school and I direct your attention towards it, as you will see that many Australians are prejudicial against Islam and those of Middle-Eastern backgrounds. I said Islamic doctors before not islamic indians or asians, etc. I'm not anti-islam as many of my friends are islamic, mainly islamic-Bangladesh/Indian and I have attended many Islamic events at Blacktown Mosque which my dad's friend runs and i am even reading the Qur'an right now. Also i did not attack or hold sentiments against islam in anyway in the previous post, i said "people may not be comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors and doctors of differnt faiths in particular islam" and i said "hopefully these grudges will disspiate in the near future". I was simply stating the general consensus of many people, prob highly influenced by the Patel and Haneff controverseys, etc.

On the subject of prejudice in rural areas, though, this "problem" is vastly overrated - Indian GPs in particular have been working in rural Australia for many years now, and the communities are almost without exception thankful for the medical service they would otherwise be without. As you (somewhat strangely) bring up yourself, many rural areas are now almost solely dependent on voluntary work being provided by *drumroll* ASIAN doctors for much of the year.

What i was talking about was the influx of foreign medico's into Australia, yes their needed, but there should be more rigerous and stringent testing even the AMC has noted that 1,600 foreign medico's practicing in QLD have not meet or qualified at Australian national standards. Also their skill abilities and english competency should be tested. Even from my own exp during the HSC my grandama died at Hawkesbury Hospital due to medical negligence(the surgeon left an infected catheter in her and did not close the would properly and discharged her) the indian doctors showed no compassion at all and could not even explain to us what they were doing or what had happened once we took her back to the hospital as the bleeding would not stop, since their level of english was not competent. My uncle a hospital liasion had to come in and deal with the situation. Note other controversy's prob stirred more or less by the media; the death of Vanessa Anderson, Dr Sanaa Ismail the anesthetic reg has been criticised by fellow doctors "Saudi-trained Dr Ismail unfortunately has an issue of needing to save face and invented stories. While he backd down from his initial assertion that this was a 'cultral issue', he said: "She will not admit to mistakes." DT 22/1/08. Not to mention Dr Jayant Patel(Dr Death). Sure their are a few rotten eggs, but alot more needs to be done with the standards of foreign docs(Also why don't you call the media explicitly racist, they've made evern more much harsher racial and prejudicial assumptions over the past few years, then what i have stated). Also, Qld used to simply rubber stamp incoming foriegn medico's due to their critical shortage of medico's, etc.

When i was talking about that it was a shame their were no specialist surgeons no longer working in rural NSW i refer you to Dr Norm Olbourne 'he has accused yound doctors of lacking motivation and losing desire to help patients.' Nor did i mention it was explicitly due to unwilling asian or indian students, i did not mention them at all when i said that.
Also on my last para on my prev post i was referring to the lack of willingness/attractivenes by many doctors to work in rural areas. I was not criticising the lack of foreign doctors at all but was talking about the general concenses and this view was founded by a Compass/4 Corners doco which harshy criticised the Australiam medical profession.

If you think that Indians and Asians are the only people who have parental career pressure applied on them, you really have been blinded by your own prejudice. Of course some people are doing med for the wrong reasons - this has been the case for as long as Medicine has been one of the most respected and potentially lucrative professions in our society. Did you know that only 20 years ago, you would automatically get a medical interview to many universities in the Western World if your father or mother was an an alumni to that university? (NB: this was before the days of "curries" and Asians in Western universities). Secrecy, nepotism, flagrant self-interest and profit-seeking has been part and parcel of medicine since its inception. Pointing this out and railing against it is fine. Turning it into a racial issue without any basis, is not, and makes you a racist, or very close to one.

I said many parents of foreign backgrounds have high parental expectations, but many parents in the general medical profession(I did not solely mention Indian or Asian students then) also highly encourage their children to do medicine. Many of my indian friends who sat the UMAT this year were disgruntled at white parents virtually escorting and dragging their children along to the UMAT test at Wentworth park.
The standards were lapse before and many students could get into med though parental connections. But their were still international students one asian anesthetic reg/GP that i've spoken to was in the class ff 1986 at UNSW and he can still barely speak english, yet this is only because he has practised medicine in asian communities. He starts at Campbelltown Children's next year.
I admit that there have been problems with admissions since in the invent of medicine at uni and there still are.

Edit: I also said "some students were doing med for the wrong reasons" and this is evidenced my Umelb going post grad and releasing a media release and public statements in AMSA etc, From Panacea Oct 07
"The University of Melbourne will shift
to what it calls the ‘Melbourne Model’
starting next year. The medical degree
will presumably be abbreviated as ‘MD’
rather than ‘MBBS’, and entry will be exclusively for
postgraduates.
The University will therefore be aiming its medical
degree at a different market. Before, the medical
degree was shopped to high school leavers, most of
them still dependent on their parents. Now, the degree
will be marketed to graduates, who are a little older and
a little more independent. (At least the graduates will
be old enough to legally drink alcohol at the O-Week
PFA).
One of the stated reasons for shifting to a postgraduate
medical model is that (it is said) undergraduates do not
do medicine for the right reasons. An undergraduate
is likely (it is said) to do medicine to please his or her
parents, or so as not to ‘waste’ excellent high school
exam results. A graduate, on the other hand, is likely (it
is said) to do medicine for the right reasons - whatever
they are. Sad but true.

 

[KFunk]

From what i've seen, the majority of them have been forced to do it by pushy parents(oh i've seen so many indian kids dragged to med info sessions, forced to do umat, bullied by parents into med or law so that they can fill their own aspirations of their children),

It's hard to moralise here and say what is a 'genuine' or 'good' reason for wanting to study medicine. Some are pushed by their parents, some have a romantic image built up in their heads by society + ER (read: "I'm not sure why I want to do it, I've just always had a passion to study medicine"), some want the secure and substantial income, some dig the prestige/image, some love the scientific discipline of medicine, some have personal medical stories that drive them and some have a desire to help people.

More often than not some combination of the above is involed. Most people I have met in my course are good people. Very occaisionally you get surprised that someone slipped through the interview panel, but most people are friendly, well mannered and morally minded. Sure, their motivations may often fall in the realms of money/prestige/family pressure but most are still good people at heart. As long as they don't fall up the Patrick Bateman end of the psychopath spectrum I'm sure they'll find a way to contribute to society.

(We just about arrive at a classical debate from ethics: What matters more, virtue & pure motives or positive outcomes?)

also the influx of asian/ethinic students reduces the racial demographic of the current medical profession, this is a concern in some areas esp from rural areas where people may not be comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors and doctors of different faiths in particular islam and with cultral barriers and misunderstanding, hopefully these grudges will dissipate in the near future.

I also hope that such grudges will dissipate. Perhaps the short term discomfort is worth it if being forced to form relationships with the 'racial other' helps break through some of their racist attitudes? Arguing from racist rednecks to the exclusion of non-anglos from medical courses seems to get it the wrong way round. Rather, we should be combating racism to make it possible for such racial groups to practice without encountering discrimination.

 

[Wooz]

If people from rural areas are not comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors of different faiths, then it serves them right. No one is forcing them to go to these less-than-human doctors.

How must it feel, to have to depend on a 'curry' or an asian or god forbid a muslim, when they've got no other caucasian Christian doctor to go to?

I pity the fool...

...no actually I don't.

Many people form isloated areas still hold mistrust from people of foreign backgrouds, unfortunate but true. Esp, since the media has recently been highly prejudicial of foreign doctors and peoples opinions have been white washed by the whole Mohammed Haneef controversy.

The Australian, 07 Aug 07:
The recent case of Mohamed Haneef and the 2005 medical malpractice scandal involving Indian-trained American doctor Jayant Patel sparked growing concerns about Australia's continued reliance on overseas-trained doctors. Experts fear state government medical services with growing vacancy lists are choosing quantity over quality when recruiting foreign-trained doctors...Community confidence in overseas-trained doctors has been battered by scandals. The Patel case sparked the first confidence shock. His clinical negligence at Queensland's Bundaberg Hospital allegedly led to the deaths of 17 patients. It emerged that Patel had been banned from practice in two US states for medical negligence but was able to obtain registration to practise in Australia because the Queensland Medical Board failed to notice.

The Patel case, which was examined by an exhaustive inquiry, highlighted inconsistencies in the way overseas-trained doctors were assessed in various Australian states. It propelled public suspicion of foreign medicos and led to pledges from state governments that they would tighten checks on the qualifications of potential foreign recruits. ..."Already after the Haneef case I've spoken to recruiters who say they have experienced a drop in inquiries from overseas doctors. It will take six months before we can really know what the consequences will be, but about 40 to 50 per cent of our foreign doctors come from India and the Middle East. It's no surprise if they found it a turn-off to come to Australia."

 

[RogueAcademic]

Wooz - the complete turnaround in your language and demeanour (you're suddenly referring to 'curries' as Indians now) and attempt at an intelligent discussion is less convincing after seeing your bigoted references earlier.

 

[Wooz]

Wooz - the complete turnaround in your language and demeanour (you're suddenly referring to 'curries' as Indians now) and attempt at an intelligent discussion is less convincing after seeing your bigoted references earlier.

I use both terms all the time, some of my friends actually prefer to be called curries or "black" thats why i accidently used the term teh first time. It's prob not the best time to post late at night, but i really havent been able to sleep properly over the last few weeks and yeh im just irate at everything right now and you think im racist and bigoted just look at the comments that brogan, loser, etc always make.

Meh, it's bos this isn't properly the best place for proper academic discussions.

wana talk on msn?

 

[ArgueEverything]

No i've spoken to quite a few dozen parents, academic staff at JCU, UMelb, UNSW and UWS and students. Also i have said many any parents share extremely high expectations of their children, but it is mainly in ethnic, asian and indian students as it is a cultral/social expectation and I respect that. I have also talked to a high number of prospective students because I have obtained the rights to republish a prospective med students guide from the AGPS and i am in the process of collecting info over the next 2-3 years. I have even flown to regional centres in the last two years to exp the problems of rural medicine. For the last two years i have been liasing with the RAAF(3 Combat AeroMedical, RAAF Richmond) and yeh they've flown me out to a few RAAF bases and airports; Wagga, Tamworth, Brisbane and Townsville to exp the medical facilities, expertise, regional medicine and aviation medicine. So I think im well informed to give my own judgement. Also, there was a news article in the smh about dozens of students mainly of foreign background(and no im not being racist here either, it's just reality) breaking down and confessing they didn't want to do medicnie in the UNSW interviews. I'll do my best to find it in my folder archives.

Your earlier comments are premised on the following notion: that students of Asian or Subcontinental background are more likely to do medicine solely because of parental pressure, than students of a European background. You are still yet to provide any compelling evidence that this is so, other than a handful of anecdotes. Anecdotes prove nothing, as for every example you give, I could give a splattering of counter-examples. It is particularly important not to rely on anecdotes whenever you make a racially inflammatory remark, because the topic is so sensitive to begin with.

I think it's worth pointing to a distinction here - there is a big difference between doing medicine partly because of parental pressure, and wholly because of parental pressure. I would suggest that probably close to 100% of medical students fit in the former category, in some way or another. It may not mean that the student's parents have insisted that they do the degree, but there are other forms of "parental pressure" - a desire to do one's parents proud, wanting to financially provide for one's parents later in life, repaying one's parents for the sacrifices they have conferred to you etc. More importantly, though, students who fit in the latter category (choose med solely because of parental pressure) do not last very long. Interestingly enough, the drop-out rate from Med school has plummeted since the introduction of the new medical curricula, suggesting that medical schools are now selecting the "right" students (i.e. ones who don't realise that med is not for them and drop out in 1st or 2nd year) - and guess what, the composition of Asians and Subcontinentals has not appreciably changed.

I founded my arguments based on current affairs(from QLD newspapers, from the last 2 years)and speaking to a pediatrician and a Reg at Nepean hospital and they found it very un-nerving working with the many middle-eastern doctors at Nepean. Also at Blacktown (Usyd training hospital) my uncles bestfriend is the Usyd Ccinical assessor and yeh he finds the proportion of foreign medico's and students alarming. Also it's quite evident that many people dispise Islam however i do not, this is because of their own held prejudices esp after 9/11, considering that you are well informed you would know about the controversy in Camden of a proposed Islamic school and I direct your attention towards it, as you will see that many Australians are prejudicial against Islam and those of Middle-Eastern backgrounds. I said Islamic doctors before not islamic indians or asians, etc. I'm not anti-islam as many of my friends are islamic, mainly islamic-Bangladesh/Indian and I have attended many Islamic events at Blacktown Mosque which my dad's friend runs and i am even reading the Qur'an right now. Also i did not attack or hold sentiments against islam in anyway in the previous post, i said "people may not be comfortable with seeing ethnic doctors and doctors of differnt faiths in particular islam" and i said "hopefully these grudges will disspiate in the near future". I was simply stating the general consensus of many people, prob highly influenced by the Patel and Haneff controverseys, etc.

This is a different topic - I assume the Asians/Subcontinentals you were referring to earlier were Australian citizens. Now you're discussing foreign-trained doctors and foreign students, which is another matter. This phenomenon is driven, of course, by a chronic shortage of local doctors, as well as our universities' increasing dependence on private, foreign money, which has deep socioeconomic underpinnings. If this fact irritates you, I'm afraid you have much bigger fish to go fry than a few foreign-trained Muslim doctors holed up in Albury - try taking aim at the world capitalist system instead. Instead of attacking the source of the problem, you are attacking people who are doing nothing more sinister than accepting the invitation of our government to come practise in areas of workplace shortage. Even if their quality of care is inferior to that of locally trained doctors (and I challenge you to provide non-anecdotal evidence of this), it is a slam dunk case that they are better than having no doctors AT ALL in some of these areas, which is the alternative.

I am still bemused by this notion of rural people and others feeling uncomfortable with Muslim doctors. Who cares if they feel uncomfortable? Do you think white parents felt comfortable having their kids go to school with black kids once segregation ended in the deep south of America?

What i was talking about was the influx of foreign medico's into Australia, yes their needed, but there should be more rigerous and stringent testing even the AMC has noted that 1,600 foreign medico's practicing in QLD have not meet or qualified at Australian national standards. Also their skill abilities and english competency should be tested. Even from my own exp during the HSC my grandama died at Hawkesbury Hospital due to medical negligence(the surgeon left an infected catheter in her and did not close the would properly and discharged her) the indian doctors showed no compassion at all and could not even explain to us what they were doing or what had happened once we took her back to the hospital as the bleeding would not stop, since their level of english was not competent. My uncle a hospital liasion had to come in and deal with the situation. Note other controversy's prob stirred more or less by the media; the death of Vanessa Anderson, Dr Sanaa Ismail the anesthetic reg has been criticised by fellow doctors "Saudi-trained Dr Ismail unfortunately has an issue of needing to save face and invented stories. While he backd down from his initial assertion that this was a 'cultral issue', he said: "She will not admit to mistakes." DT 22/1/08. Not to mention Dr Jayant Patel(Dr Death). Sure their are a few rotten eggs, but alot more needs to be done with the standards of foreign docs(Also why don't you call the media explicitly racist, they've made evern more much harsher racial and prejudicial assumptions over the past few years, then what i have stated). Also, Qld used to simply rubber stamp incoming foriegn medico's due to their critical shortage of medico's, etc.

Again, this is a problem related to chronic underfunding and a widespread shortage of doctors in rural areas. Why direct your anger at Asians and "curries", when it's your own government that is at fault for:
a) not doing enough in the past to recruit local doctors, and
b) not screening foreign doctors well enough to ensure they meet adequate standards?

Having said that, pointing to a few anecdotes of bad foreign-trained doctors proves nothing. You'd have to do a statistical analysis to show that their error rate, mortality, morbidity etc is higher than locally trained doctors. Otherwise all you are doing is selectively pointing to examples - I could just as well point to examples of home-bred, white, Anglo-Saxon doctors messing up. Proves nothing.

When i was talking about that it was a shame their were no specialist surgeons no longer working in rural NSW i refer you to Dr Norm Olbourne 'he has accused yound doctors of lacking motivation and losing desire to help patients.' Nor did i mention it was explicitly due to unwilling asian or indian students, i did not mention them at all when i said that.
Also on my last para on my prev post i was referring to the lack of willingness/attractivenes by many doctors to work in rural areas. I was not criticising the lack of foreign doctors at all but was talking about the general concenses and this view was founded by a Compass/4 Corners doco which harshy criticised the Australiam medical profession.
I said many parents of foreign backgrounds have high parental expectations, but many parents in the general medical profession(I did not solely mention Indian or Asian students then) also highly encourage their children to do medicine. Many of my indian friends who sat the UMAT this year were disgruntled at white parents virtually escorting and dragging their children along to the UMAT test at Wentworth park.

It's hard to believe that your entire initial post was not directed at Asians/subcontinentals, considering it was elaborating on your initial "I hope your not curry or asian" statement.

Your denials of racism would hold more water if you had said something like, "I hope you're not doing med because your parents forced you to." Instead, you've slurred an entire ethnicity, which I take very personally, since I know countless Asians and "curries" who have worked very, very hard to get into medicine - some slogging through undergraduate degrees, others taking 1, 2, even 3 years off after high school to keep re-trying the UMAT.

The standards were lapse before and many students could get into med though parental connections. But their were still international students one asian anesthetic reg/GP that i've spoken to was in the class ff 1986 at UNSW and he can still barely speak english, yet this is only because he has practised medicine in asian communities. He starts at Campbelltown Children's next year.
I admit that there have been problems with admissions since in the invent of medicine at uni and there still are.

Well you don't have to worry about English literacy when it comes to the locally bred Asian/subcontinental cohort, that's for sure. It's hard to imagine English illiterate students getting into any Australian medical school now, considering the interview process most universities require. I also have doubts about your asian anaesthecist reg anecdote - how could someone who barely speaks English pass all his written exams, OSCEs and board certificates?

The point about undergrad vs postgrad med, and motivation to do med, is an interesting one. That's how they do it in the United States, all postgrad. There are several downsides though - for one, postgrad med courses are denser and typically less thorough (especially for students whose undergrad degree was non-science related) since they are 1 or 2 years shorter. 1 or 2 years longer to graduate may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference for women, especially women who start university a bit later in life, and want to have a family etc. I'm not convinced that there aren't better ways to sort out the wheat from the chuff so to speak.

 

[Wooz]

Your earlier comments are premised on the following notion: that students of Asian or Subcontinental background are more likely to do medicine solely because of parental pressure, than students of a European background. You are still yet to provide any compelling evidence that this is so, other than a handful of anecdotes. Anecdotes prove nothing, as for every example you give, I could give a splattering of counter-examples. It is particularly important not to rely on anecdotes whenever you make a racially inflammatory remark, because the topic is so sensitive to begin with.

I said many are influnced by parental pressures and high expectations. Not "soely because of parental pressure". You've misinterpreted and exaggerated alot of what i've said. I guess you really do live up to your username 'ArgueEverything'.

I think it's worth pointing to a distinction here - there is a big difference between doing medicine partly because of parental pressure, and wholly because of parental pressure. I would suggest that probably close to 100% of medical students fit in the former category, in some way or another. It may not mean that the student's parents have insisted that they do the degree, but there are other forms of "parental pressure" - a desire to do one's parents proud, wanting to financially provide for one's parents later in life, repaying one's parents for the sacrifices they have conferred to you etc. More importantly, though, students who fit in the latter category (choose med solely because of parental pressure) do not last very long. Interestingly enough, the drop-out rate from Med school has plummeted since the introduction of the new medical curricula, suggesting that medical schools are now selecting the "right" students (i.e. ones who don't realise that med is not for them and drop out in 1st or 2nd year) - and guess what, the composition of Asians and Subcontinentals has not appreciably changed.

Yeh, there is but many of those who do not genuienly want to do medicine get caught out these days by the interview. However, it is a shame that UTAS and Umelb did not have an interview selection procedure.

This is a different topic - I assume the Asians/Subcontinentals you were referring to earlier were Australian citizens. Now you're discussing foreign-trained doctors and foreign students, which is another matter. This phenomenon is driven, of course, by a chronic shortage of local doctors, as well as our universities' increasing dependence on private, foreign money, which has deep socioeconomic underpinnings. If this fact irritates you, I'm afraid you have much bigger fish to go fry than a few foreign-trained Muslim doctors holed up in Albury - try taking aim at the world capitalist system instead. Instead of attacking the source of the problem, you are attacking people who are doing nothing more sinister than accepting the invitation of our government to come practise in areas of workplace shortage. Even if their quality of care is inferior to that of locally trained doctors (and I challenge you to provide non-anecdotal evidence of this), it is a slam dunk case that they are better than having no doctors AT ALL in some of these areas, which is the alternative.

I've said that foreign medico's are needed, yet many people of the general populas hold grudges or dislike towards foriegn doctors due to the media. Also i said there are a 'few rotten eggs' and cultral problems and i gave evidence, however i said it was a 'media white wash'. Thus i did not directly attack muslim doctors or rural foreign medicos you are overstating and grossly exaggerating what i have said. I gave non-anecdotal evidence for this aswell aboout the problems of foreign trained medico's esp since many have not sat any standards exams and the QLD and NSW gov have allowed them to practice, this is grossly incomprehendible. I stamped out the problems of some foreign trained medico's and did not vilify them directly.

I am still bemused by this notion of rural people and others feeling uncomfortable with Muslim doctors. Who cares if they feel uncomfortable? Do you think white parents felt comfortable having their kids go to school with black kids once segregation ended in the deep south of America?

I said it was a cultral issue, embellished by the media following the many medical controverseys which you have not addressed at all. Thus it has severly tarnished the image of foriegn medico's on the general australian populus.

Again, this is a problem related to chronic underfunding and a widespread shortage of doctors in rural areas. Why direct your anger at Asians and "curries", when it's your own government that is at fault for:
a) not doing enough in the past to recruit local doctors, and
b) not screening foreign doctors well enough to ensure they meet adequate standards?

In my first post i said it was mainly due to the Howard gov by saying 'thankyou Mr Howard'(sarcastically) and Michael Wooldridge as they f'd up the health system as Howard thought there were enough doctors in the health system.

Having said that, pointing to a few anecdotes of bad foreign-trained doctors proves nothing. You'd have to do a statistical analysis to show that their error rate, mortality, morbidity etc is higher than locally trained doctors. Otherwise all you are doing is selectively pointing to examples - I could just as well point to examples of home-bred, white, Anglo-Saxon doctors messing up. Proves nothing.

I gave media examples and yes i did say it was a white-wish by them. Also i'm def bias as i have experienced incompetancy's by them esp the loss of a loved one as a direct result of medical negligence. Also the Hon Justice Michael Kirby AC CMG has used evidence of the extremely high rate of foreign doctor negligence in Canada as evidence in many medical litigation cases(DN , Dewees, MJ, Trebilcock and PC, Coyte, "The Medical Malpractice Crisis: A Comparative Empirical Perspective". 1991) this was last used in 2002 and yeh it's outdated. To date from what i've read on the MJA studies are only now being dong following the Dr Patel scandal.

It's hard to believe that your entire initial post was not directed at Asians/subcontinentals, considering it was elaborating on your initial "I hope your not curry or asian" statement.

You could pick up in my later post that i said 'many' asian or indian(curry) parents, etc and medical problems in the general sense.

your denials of racism would hold more water if you had said something like, "I hope you're not doing med because your parents forced you to." Instead, you've slurred an entire ethnicity, which I take very personally, since I know countless Asians and "curries" who have worked very, very hard to get into medicine - some slogging through undergraduate degrees, others taking 1, 2, even 3 years off after high school to keep re-trying the UMAT.

Meh, many Australians are racist deal with it(esp from regional and greater outer western suburbs), i stereotype like many of my friends do however i'm not explicitly racist like many other Bosers. Yet i admit to racism of omission. Yeh many people do work every hard to get in, but some are doing medicine for the wrong reasons or pressured to and also said parents of professionals, etc push their children with very high expectations.

Well you don't have to worry about English literacy when it comes to the locally bred Asian/subcontinental cohort, that's for sure. It's hard to imagine English illiterate students getting into any Australian medical school now, considering the interview process most universities require. I also have doubts about your asian anaesthecist reg anecdote - how could someone who barely speaks English pass all his written exams, OSCEs and board certificates?

I said that it was mainly because he as practised solely on the Chinese population in the last few years, he's prob lost the lang, but it's gonna be hard when he comes to practice in a hospital, anyway he owns the restaurant where i work at i'll be happy to give you his number. OSCE is for int students he was a local one, and yeh i only have to mention one thing UNSW.

The point about undergrad vs postgrad med, and motivation to do med, is an interesting one. That's how they do it in the United States, all postgrad. There are several downsides though - for one, postgrad med courses are denser and typically less thorough (especially for students whose undergrad degree was non-science related) since they are 1 or 2 years shorter. 1 or 2 years longer to graduate may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference for women, especially women who start university a bit later in life, and want to have a family etc. I'm not convinced that there aren't better ways to sort out the wheat from the chuff so to speak.

I was just quoting what Umelb published about why it went postgrad to prevent more students who were doing 'medicine for the wrong reasons'. Also since the media's expose of the lack of anatomy training, some uni's such as Usyd have redesigned the course with more intensive anatomy lessons. Also Notre Dame Fremantle could loose it's accreditation after it expires if they do not revamp their course and staff to student ratio. Nothings perfect.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

wow passion lolz

1/ UNSW in the monash populations and people publication circa 2005 stated UNSW had 56% students of Asian Descent... higher than Melb...
2/ FTDs help support our system and xenophobia from a minority and poor practices from others makes for a bad combination.

3/ the AMC stats show that graduates from indian medical schools out performed chinese medics in terms of english. the indian medical graduates out performed the UK graduates in terms of medical competency.
Dr Patel was not AMC accreditted.

the argument does not only rage here but is a massive issue within the medical community. I have very high esteem for good medical doctors.. regardless of where they graduate from. this is my approach and works for me.

i think that we need a mix of courses to suit the changing needs and demands. We cant all be the 25 yr old loners that live in the hospital... tho they would be handy ..

medicine is not for everyone... its not for the smart... its for the easily bored ppl who enjoy helping others. it is a lot of clerical work and memorising. trust me its not as good as house or grays or scrubs.. i should like post a normal medical day.. a normal surgical day... and a normal pathologist day... ppl will be disappointed

 

[Wooz]

wow passion lolz
1/ UNSW in the monash populations and people publication circa 2005 stated UNSW had 56% students of Asian Descent... higher than Melb...
2/ FTDs help support our system and xenophobia from a minority and poor practices from others makes for a bad combination.

3/ the AMC stats show that graduates from indian medical schools out performed chinese medics in terms of english. the indian medical graduates out performed the UK graduates in terms of medical competency.
Dr Patel was not AMC accreditted.

Passion, i cbb arguing anymore
Woah, never thought it would be that high at UNSW. FTD are needed but yeh the standards need to be in place and the media needs to back off. Hmm, thats good to hear, yeh Patel like many foreign doctors didn't have any AMC accred or didn't sit state recog exams as many as 1,400 in QLD alone.

the argument does not only rage here but is a massive issue within the medical community. I have very high esteem for good medical doctors.. regardless of where they graduate from. this is my approach and works for me.

i think that we need a mix of courses to suit the changing needs and demands. We cant all be the 25 yr old loners that live in the hospital... tho they would be handy ..

Yeh, my Uncle is the prez of the Burmese community and yeh an exec of the Australian-Burmese Doctor federation. Alot of them did their degree's in rangoon are good docs, but there are still a few rotten eggs as you will find in everything.

medicine is not for everyone... its not for the smart... its for the easily bored ppl who enjoy helping others. it is a lot of clerical work and memorising.

Oh, then def medicine is right for me

trust me its not as good as house or grays or scrubs.. i should like post a normal medical day.. a normal surgical day... and a normal pathologist day... ppl will be disappointed

Hey, dont ruin my day, jks.