Quick Conics Question!!! (1 Viewer)

haboozin

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P (asec@,btan@) lies on the hyperbola x<sup>2</sup>/a<sup>2</sup> - y<sup>2</sup>/b<sup>2</sup> = 1. the tangent at P is also a tangent of a circle. (x - ae)<sup>2</sup> + y<sup>2</sup> = a<sup>2</sup>(e<sup>2</sup>+1)


show that sec@ = -e

(btw delta = 0 is too big ... so perpendicular distance would be the easiest way to go ... but i cant get it right so when someone does this can they show full working)
 

Trev

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What I have done (so far):
Find the slope of both, and make them equal eachother:
Slope hyperbola = -(b²x)/(a²y) {implicitly}
Slope circle = (ae-x)/[√(a²+2aex-x²)] {making y = (a²+2aex-x²)

Make them equal eachother; then substitute x=asecө and y=btanө (it comes out as tan²ө so change that in terms of secө); then substitute the b²/a² with e²-1.

This lead me to:
[(e²-1)sec²ө]/[sec²ө-1] = [e²-2esecө+sec²ө]/[1+2esecө-sec²ө]
And i'm sure there is just algebra bashing from there.
 

haboozin

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Trev said:
What I have done (so far):
Find the slope of both, and make them equal eachother:
Slope hyperbola = -(b²x)/(a²y) {implicitly}
Slope circle = (ae-x)/[√(a²+2aex-x²)] {making y = (a²+2aex-x²)

Make them equal eachother; then substitute x=asecө and y=btanө (it comes out as tan²ө so change that in terms of secө); then substitute the b²/a² with e²-1.

This lead me to:
[(e²-1)sec²ө]/[sec²ө-1] = [e²-2esecө+sec²ө]/[1+2esecө-sec²ө]
And i'm sure there is just algebra bashing from there.

hey yea sorry, u cant do that
this is because the point P is on the hyperbola not the circle
so asec@ btan@ does not lie on the circle so u cant substitiute it in the gradient...

thats what i tried to do and u should get sec@ = 1/e if u did all this properly (which obviously would give u the wrong answer)..


so yea i think the perpendicular distance formula is the onyl way
 

haboozin

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come on.... why cant anyone solve this....

i mean shafqat 5th in the state lets go...
what about all the people that are confident of getting a top 10 in state placing this yr in the big names in '05 thread...

ngai? wanna solve it ?:)
ANYONE......
 

FinalFantasy

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hmm.. if no one solves it in a few days i'll just ask my tutor to do it lol...
 

haboozin

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FinalFantasy said:
hmm.. if no one solves it in a few days i'll just ask my tutor to do it lol...
its been a week... just ask him
 

who_loves_maths

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haboozin, in one of your other threads you said that you tried first to do it by equating the equations of the circle with that of the tangent to the hyperbola and then finding the values of Sec@ for which DELTA is equal to zero. ---> i think that's probably the best way to do it. (other 'easier' methods will take just as long to think up as it would take you just to do it systematically).

i used your initial method and got Sec@ = {-e, 1, -1}, but Sec@ can't = 1 or -1 since 'e' is not = 0. so Sec@ = -e is the only solution.

so if you can't think up of any easier methods, then just use your initial one. if you run into any problems with the algebra (which is alot) then just post n' ask again. if you do the algebra carefully, then i'm sure you'll arrive at
Sec@=-e
 

haboozin

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who_loves_maths said:
i used your initial method and got Sec@ = {-e, 1, -1}, but Sec@ can't = 1 or -1 since 'e' is not = 0. so Sec@ = -e is the only solution.
u used DELTA = 0 and got that?
DELTA = 0 came out extremly long... (cannot be done in an exam)

if you used that method can you post your working...

also what about perpendicular distance

since the perpendicular distance will be the radius

wouldnt | ax + by + c|/SQRT(a<sup>2</sup>+b<sup>2</sup>) = aSQRT(e<sup>2</sup> + 1)

ie
|esec@ -1|/SQRT(sec<sup>2</sup>@/a<sup>2</sup> + tan<sup>2</sup>@/b<sup>2</sup>) = aSQRT(e<sup>2</sup> + 1)

but i cant do the algebra :(
 

who_loves_maths

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Originally Posted by haboozin
u used DELTA = 0 and got that?
DELTA = 0 came out extremly long... (cannot be done in an exam)

if you used that method can you post your working...
hi haboozin, well actually it wasn't that long and only took about 3/4 pages, so it's certainly doable in an exam and i think it's the formal way of doing it.
i suspect the reason why it takes too long (esp. with expansions and squares of trig expressions, etc) is that you probably attempted to expand everything in your working out. what i did was look for places where you can simplify and factorise, and as it turned out the equation was relatively 'neat' in the end.
i won't type out all the working out i did (because i'm going to show you another method i just found in the meantime) but this is the 'condensed' equation i eventually got using your initial method:
0 = (eSec@ +1)x^2 - 2a(Sec@ +e)x + (a^2)(e^2 -Sec@^2)/(eSec@ -1) ;
where 'x' is of course the x-coordinate of the point on the circle that the tangent touches. solving for DELTA =0 from that will get you Sec@ = -e .

Originally Posted by haboozin
also what about perpendicular distance
since the perpendicular distance will be the radius
wouldnt | ax + by + c|/SQRT(a^2+b^2) = aSQRT(e^2 + 1)
ie
|esec@ -1|/SQRT(sec^2@/a^2 + tan^2@/b^2) = aSQRT(e^2 + 1)
but i cant do the algebra
well i can't see how this method will "simplify" the workload needed to get you the answer, it doesn't look that much simpler than your initial method. plus, i personally don't like to work with too many degree 2 powers and expressions in questions of this type since they significantly complicate matters.

anyhow, like i alluded to above, i have just found a new way of doing your question without the need to involve quadratic expressions or equations. (however, i doubt this will actually take less time to do in an exam than the formal method, esp. for those who are good at algebra already anyways.)
but here it is:

the equation of tangent of the hyperbola is: xSec@/a - yTan@/b =1
the equation of tangent of the circle is (you can derive this yourself): yY +xX -ae(x +X) =a^2 , where {X, Y} is the point on the circle where the tangent touches.
now from the hyperbola tangent, when y=0, x=a/Sec@ ;
but since both the tangent to the hyperbola and tangent to the circle are in fact the SAME tangents (or lines), then {a/Sec@, 0} will also satisfy the tangent of circle: (0)Y +aX/Sec@ -ae(a/Sec@ +X) =a^2 ; (notice how the (0)Y just takes care of the 'Y' ^^) -----> so you end up with: X = a(Sec@ +e)/(1 -eSec@)

now all you need to do is come up with another expression for 'X' and then equate:
the tangent to the circle at {X, Y} is also the tangent to the hyperbola at {aSec@, bTan@}, so that satisfies the circle tangent:
Y(bTan@) +X(aSec@) -ae(X +aSec@) =a^2 ;
but also, the gradient of the hyperbola tangent = bSec@/aTan@ = gradient of the circle tangent = (ae-X)/Y -----> Y =a(ae-X)Tan@/bSec@ ;
and now substitute this expression for 'Y' into the previous equation of tangent:
[a(ae-X)Tan@/bSec@][bTan@] +x(aSec@) -ae(x +aSec@) =a^2
-----> {solving for 'X'} X =a(Sec@ +e)/(1-e)

and so equating the two expression found so far for 'X':
X = a(Sec@ +e)/(1 -eSec@) = a(Sec@ +e)/(1-e) -----> 0 =e(Sec@ +e)(1 -Sec@) -----> Sec@ = {-e, 1}, but Sec@ can't = 1 as 'e' can't =0 ;
hence, Sec@ = -e .


hope that helps :) i suppose the algebra in this method isn't as hard or prolific as that of the first method.
 
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