Should NSW adopt ‘Adult Crime, Adult Time’ laws? (1 Viewer)

[tvskAXatar]

Yesterday Victoria’s Labor Government joined Queensland’s LNP government in adopting Adult Crime Adult Time laws due to rising youth crime. Youths in those states can now/soon face adult sentences for crimes like murder, aggravated home invasion, carjacking etc. The early intervention and rehabilitation experiment has failed. Should NSW and other states/territories follow suit?

 

[Tony Stark]

Yesterday Victoria’s Labor Government joined Queensland’s LNP government in adopting Adult Crime Adult Time laws due to rising youth crime. Youths in those states can now/soon face adult sentences for crimes like murder, aggravated home invasion, carjacking etc. The early intervention and rehabilitation experiment has failed. Should NSW and other states/territories follow suit?

Of course, other factors should be considered, but in the right mental state and capacity, then yes but probably for teens over 13 because they should know by then what is right and wrong (surely they commit enough crimes in roblox to know its a crime)

 

[coolcat6778]

@melanie_o care to explain why you voted no?

 

[Socialism]

Their brains are still developing... do we really need to put them in jail for 10-20 years?

 

[Socialism]

clearly something is not right if they're committing serious crimes... i'd rather see them receive help than be sent into the prison system at such a young age

 

[killer queen]

imo it really depends. I voted yes because in the current prison system, the sentence you get is rarely the amount of time you actually spend in jail, with good behaviour, parole, etc. - which would probably be even more available for children, given their circumstance. like any crime, circumstance is considered, which would innately give them a lighter sentence, but the "adult time" might serve as a deterrent to some groups of young people in the carjacking, theft, etc. department. (obviously, not those forced by circumstance, influenced by mental health, etc.; but also, these cases will always be dealt with accounting for these situations. indeed, a child with certain mental conditions would probably be sent to treatment with or without this law.) I didn't do legal so my understanding is definitely patchy but yeah

 

[totally_screwed]

what kinda crimes are young people statistically doing the most, surely like speeding on roads/breaking road rules and shoplifting at worst… I wouldn’t know. the odd teen committing homicide probably needs help not jail time like socialism said
I feel like adults are committing the more vile crimes anyway

 

[Socialism]

I've just done a bit of research. From the sites listed below here are some statistics. Points are above the link it comes from.

• Young people in the justice system have significantly higher rates of mental ill-health and adverse childhood experiences than their peers in the general population.
• Incarcerated adolescents faced a fivefold increase in the risk of being incarcerated as an adult, compared with young people who’d never been in custody.
• Detaining a young person costs around $1 million annually

https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2025/05/young-detainees-often-have-poor-mental-health-earlier-incarceration-makes-it-worse

• The younger a child was at their first sentence, the more likely they were to reoffend (with any offence), to reoffend violently, to continue offending into the adult criminal jurisdiction, and to be imprisoned in an adult prison before their 22nd birthday. The six-year reoffending rate of offenders who were first sentenced at 10–12 years old (86%) was more than double that of those who were first sentenced at 19–20 years old (33%).

https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/news-media/media-releases/children-who-enter-youth-justice-system-early-are-more-likely-reoffend

• Children from areas of greatest socioeconomic disadvantage were 10 times more likely than those living in areas of least disadvantage to be under supervision.
• Research indicates that young people in the youth justice system have often experienced:
  • high rates of child maltreatment and neglect, including time spent in out-of-home care (Cashmore 2011; Stewart et al. 2002)
  • drug and alcohol abuse (Kenny & Nelson 2008; Prichard & Payne 2005)
  • trouble at school, including issues with poor school attendance and performance
  • parental substance abuse
  • parental incarceration
  • homelessness or unstable accommodation (JH&FMHN 2017).
• These children are also more likely to have poor physical and mental health, reduced cognitive ability, and be parents themselves
• Rates of children under supervision increased with remoteness (502 per 100,000 children in Very remote areas compared with 43 per 100,000 in Major cities)
• Differences were also evident between Indigenous and non-Indigenous children (835 per 100,000 compared with 28 per 100,000)

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/children-youth/australias-children/contents/justice-safety/children-youth-justice-supervision

• Around 85% of children sentenced to detention return to custody within 12 months.
• Australia’s child incarceration costs surpassed $1 billion for the first time in 2023-24, up from $908 million the previous year.
• “Countless reports, including the Senate Inquiry into Australia’s Youth Justice and Incarceration System, have highlighted the chronic lack of diversionary and bail support programs. Instead of funnelling more children into expensive and ineffective prisons, we need governments across the country to recognise that incarceration does not work to deter children from committing crime. What works is investment in programs, including First Nations-led programs, outside of prison that address the underlying drivers of why children come into contact with the youth justice system.”

https://www.justicereforminitiative.org.au/media_release_imprisonment_is_failing_children_and_communities_new_data_shows_85_of_kids_released_from_detention_return_within_a_year

• Indigenous Australian children comprised 6% of the Australian youth population aged 10 to 17 years, they comprised a daily average of almost 50% of the youth detention population
• The likelihood of offending and consequent supervision by youth justice is at least 12 times greater for children with a background of adverse childhood experiences and exposure to child protection systems
• Scientific evidence indicates that a child’s immature decision-making capacity and risk-taking behaviour is developmentally typical during the adolescent stage of human development between the ages of 10 to 24 years, with full brain development not achieved until the age of 25 years
• There is growing evidence globally of a high premature mortality rate of children who have been incarcerated. Premature death rates range from 5 to 41 times higher than their age-matched and sex-matched peers who have not experienced incarceration

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2949840624000147

• It now costs $3,320 per day to imprison a single child in Australia, equating to $1.12 million per child annually.
• 84.5% of children released from detention return to sentenced supervision within 12 months.
• State and territory governments imprison First Nations children at almost 27 times the rate of non-Indigenous children. The rate of state and territory incarceration of First Nations children’s is 26.6 per 10,000 compared to 1 per 10,000 for non-Indigenous children.
• Over the 2023/2024 year in Australian youth detention, there were 37 incidents of children being hospitalised because of self-harm or attempted suicides. 20 of these children were in WA.

https://www.justicereforminitiative.org.au/australia_now_spends_1_billion_a_year_locking_up_children_it_s_time_for_a_smarter_approach

• Data from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare revealed that more than 30% of young people in detention were survivors of abuse or neglect.
• As adults, post-release Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are ten times more likely to die than the general population, with suicide the leading cause of death.

https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2022/locking-up-kids-has-serious-mental-health-impacts-and-contributes-to-further-reoffending.php

• NLA strongly supports raising the Minimum Age of Criminal Responsibility (MACR) to at least 14 years old. There are a number of compelling reasons for raising the MACR to at least 14 years old. They include:
  1. the cognitive and emotional development of children, including underdeveloped consequential thinking and impulse control, and the impact of trauma;
  2. the stigmatising and criminogenic impact of the criminal justice system and custody on
     young children;
  3. the overrepresentation of children experiencing mental health issues and with cognitive disabilities under 14 years old in the criminal justice system;
  4. the overrepresentation of Aboriginal children under 14 years old in the criminal justice system;
  5. the overrepresentation of children in out of home care under 14 years old in the criminal justice system;
  6. the limitations of the presumption of doli incapax;
  7. recommendations from numerous organisations and inquiries in Australia;
  8. compliance with international standards; and
  9. the availability of alternatives to criminal law responses for children under 14 years old.

https://nationallegalaid.org.au/policy-and-advocacy/submissions/inquiry-into-australias-youth-justice-and-incarceration-system

• Three quarters of the Indigenous population have been cautioned by police, referred to a youth justice conference, or convicted of a criminal offence before they are 23 years old.

https://www.lawsociety.com.au/resources/news-and-media/Key-to-reducing-Indigenous-youth-incarceration

• 10- to 13-year-olds will continue to be imprisoned, and nor was the point made that the majority of the children affected by these laws will be First Nations kids. (NSW Government's tough on crime laws)

https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/nsw-governments-youth-incarceration-drive-lacks-vision-or-any-deep-sense-of-justice/





So um, yeah I'm not rlly a big fan of these kinds of laws.

 

[totally_screwed]

I've just done a bit of research. From the sites listed below here are some statistics. Points are above the link it comes from.

• Young people in the justice system have significantly higher rates of mental ill-health and adverse childhood experiences than their peers in the general population.
• Incarcerated adolescents faced a fivefold increase in the risk of being incarcerated as an adult, compared with young people who’d never been in custody.
• Detaining a young person costs around $1 million annually

https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2025/05/young-detainees-often-have-poor-mental-health-earlier-incarceration-makes-it-worse

• The younger a child was at their first sentence, the more likely they were to reoffend (with any offence), to reoffend violently, to continue offending into the adult criminal jurisdiction, and to be imprisoned in an adult prison before their 22nd birthday. The six-year reoffending rate of offenders who were first sentenced at 10–12 years old (86%) was more than double that of those who were first sentenced at 19–20 years old (33%).

https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/news-media/media-releases/children-who-enter-youth-justice-system-early-are-more-likely-reoffend

• Children from areas of greatest socioeconomic disadvantage were 10 times more likely than those living in areas of least disadvantage to be under supervision.
• Research indicates that young people in the youth justice system have often experienced:
  • high rates of child maltreatment and neglect, including time spent in out-of-home care (Cashmore 2011; Stewart et al. 2002)
  • drug and alcohol abuse (Kenny & Nelson 2008; Prichard & Payne 2005)
  • trouble at school, including issues with poor school attendance and performance
  • parental substance abuse
  • parental incarceration
  • homelessness or unstable accommodation (JH&FMHN 2017).
• These children are also more likely to have poor physical and mental health, reduced cognitive ability, and be parents themselves
• Rates of children under supervision increased with remoteness (502 per 100,000 children in Very remote areas compared with 43 per 100,000 in Major cities)
• Differences were also evident between Indigenous and non-Indigenous children (835 per 100,000 compared with 28 per 100,000)

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/children-youth/australias-children/contents/justice-safety/children-youth-justice-supervision

• Around 85% of children sentenced to detention return to custody within 12 months.
• Australia’s child incarceration costs surpassed $1 billion for the first time in 2023-24, up from $908 million the previous year.
• “Countless reports, including the Senate Inquiry into Australia’s Youth Justice and Incarceration System, have highlighted the chronic lack of diversionary and bail support programs. Instead of funnelling more children into expensive and ineffective prisons, we need governments across the country to recognise that incarceration does not work to deter children from committing crime. What works is investment in programs, including First Nations-led programs, outside of prison that address the underlying drivers of why children come into contact with the youth justice system.”

https://www.justicereforminitiative.org.au/media_release_imprisonment_is_failing_children_and_communities_new_data_shows_85_of_kids_released_from_detention_return_within_a_year

• Indigenous Australian children comprised 6% of the Australian youth population aged 10 to 17 years, they comprised a daily average of almost 50% of the youth detention population
• The likelihood of offending and consequent supervision by youth justice is at least 12 times greater for children with a background of adverse childhood experiences and exposure to child protection systems
• Scientific evidence indicates that a child’s immature decision-making capacity and risk-taking behaviour is developmentally typical during the adolescent stage of human development between the ages of 10 to 24 years, with full brain development not achieved until the age of 25 years
• There is growing evidence globally of a high premature mortality rate of children who have been incarcerated. Premature death rates range from 5 to 41 times higher than their age-matched and sex-matched peers who have not experienced incarceration

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2949840624000147

• It now costs $3,320 per day to imprison a single child in Australia, equating to $1.12 million per child annually.
• 84.5% of children released from detention return to sentenced supervision within 12 months.
• State and territory governments imprison First Nations children at almost 27 times the rate of non-Indigenous children. The rate of state and territory incarceration of First Nations children’s is 26.6 per 10,000 compared to 1 per 10,000 for non-Indigenous children.
• Over the 2023/2024 year in Australian youth detention, there were 37 incidents of children being hospitalised because of self-harm or attempted suicides. 20 of these children were in WA.

https://www.justicereforminitiative.org.au/australia_now_spends_1_billion_a_year_locking_up_children_it_s_time_for_a_smarter_approach

• Data from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare revealed that more than 30% of young people in detention were survivors of abuse or neglect.
• As adults, post-release Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are ten times more likely to die than the general population, with suicide the leading cause of death.

https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2022/locking-up-kids-has-serious-mental-health-impacts-and-contributes-to-further-reoffending.php

• NLA strongly supports raising the Minimum Age of Criminal Responsibility (MACR) to at least 14 years old. There are a number of compelling reasons for raising the MACR to at least 14 years old. They include:
  1. the cognitive and emotional development of children, including underdeveloped consequential thinking and impulse control, and the impact of trauma;
  2. the stigmatising and criminogenic impact of the criminal justice system and custody on
     young children;
  3. the overrepresentation of children experiencing mental health issues and with cognitive disabilities under 14 years old in the criminal justice system;
  4. the overrepresentation of Aboriginal children under 14 years old in the criminal justice system;
  5. the overrepresentation of children in out of home care under 14 years old in the criminal justice system;
  6. the limitations of the presumption of doli incapax;
  7. recommendations from numerous organisations and inquiries in Australia;
  8. compliance with international standards; and
  9. the availability of alternatives to criminal law responses for children under 14 years old.

https://nationallegalaid.org.au/policy-and-advocacy/submissions/inquiry-into-australias-youth-justice-and-incarceration-system

• Three quarters of the Indigenous population have been cautioned by police, referred to a youth justice conference, or convicted of a criminal offence before they are 23 years old.

https://www.lawsociety.com.au/resources/news-and-media/Key-to-reducing-Indigenous-youth-incarceration

• 10- to 13-year-olds will continue to be imprisoned, and nor was the point made that the majority of the children affected by these laws will be First Nations kids. (NSW Government's tough on crime laws)

https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/nsw-governments-youth-incarceration-drive-lacks-vision-or-any-deep-sense-of-justice/





So um, yeah I'm not rlly a big fan of these kinds of laws.

depressing stuff honestly

 

[melanie_o]

@melanie_o care to explain why you voted no?

Because whilst locking minors up may cause crime overall to to decrease, it provides a band-aid solution to why minors commit crimes in the first place. I whole heartedly agree that SERIOUS crimes such as murder and assault should warrant ‘adult time’ for these teenagers, but this will not be effective at reducing less severe crimes. Yes, I know that the Victorian government is in the midst of a financial crisis, but locking kids up for less severe crimes won’t cause crime as a whole to go down. We already know that socioeconomic disadvantage is linked to youth crime. Whilst I agree that right now, offenders need to be removed from the streets to improve safety, in the long term, governments, law enforcement and other organisations should be given sufficient funding to reduce youth offending in the first place. Build stronger institutions, increase education access to disadvantaged youth and address socioeconomic disadvantage to encourage economic mobility and smart decision-making. This may sound utopian, but that’s what the youth of today need, for the sake of themselves and broader societal stability. If we continue to just resort to incarceration, nothing will change, and the socioeconomic divide will become more divided, continuing to power this toxic cycle.

 

[SylviaB]

Because whilst locking minors up may cause crime overall to to decrease, it provides a band-aid solution to why minors commit crimes in the first place. I whole heartedly agree that SERIOUS crimes such as murder and assault should warrant ‘adult time’ for these teenagers, but this will not be effective at reducing less severe crimes. Yes, I know that the Victorian government is in the midst of a financial crisis, but locking kids up for less severe crimes won’t cause crime as a whole to go down. We already know that socioeconomic disadvantage is linked to youth crime. Whilst I agree that right now, offenders need to be removed from the streets to improve safety, in the long term, governments, law enforcement and other organisations should be given sufficient funding to reduce youth offending in the first place. Build stronger institutions, increase education access to disadvantaged youth and address socioeconomic disadvantage to encourage economic mobility and smart decision-making. This may sound utopian, but that’s what the youth of today need, for the sake of themselves and broader societal stability. If we continue to just resort to incarceration, nothing will change, and the socioeconomic divide will become more divided, continuing to power this toxic cycle.

There's no evidence that "socioeconomic disadvantage" is CAUSALLY related to crime

Additionally, traits like intelligence, aggression, impulse control, time orientation/gratification delay, empathy, are all highly heritable. And it's very likely that people whose parents are 'socioeconomically disadvantaged' are bad when in terms of these traits and pass them onto their kids.

Yes, there should be systems in place to help support at risk youths etc. but the idea that we have to sit around and wait until fundamental socioeconomic disadvantage is eliminated before we can hope for crime to improve is insane, as is the idea that '13 year olds running around attacking people with machetes' is just what happens when people come from poor families is also completely insane.

If teenagers are killing people, they need to be removed from society long term. There's no alternative. Yes, we should try and "rehabillitate them", but we can't just let them go free until such systems are in place, and its also the case that most people wildly overestimate the extent to which rehabillittion is possible.

It's bizarre how you people think these violent criminals are the biggest victims in history whose wellbeing needs to be placed above everything else, but when they get bailed and attack or kill someone, it's just "oh well, that's sad. anyway..."

 

[enoilgam]

Yesterday Victoria’s Labor Government joined Queensland’s LNP government in adopting Adult Crime Adult Time laws due to rising youth crime. Youths in those states can now/soon face adult sentences for crimes like murder, aggravated home invasion, carjacking etc. The early intervention and rehabilitation experiment has failed. Should NSW and other states/territories follow suit?

Sadly I do, because once matters have reached the point where youths are committing serious crime or are repeat offenders, we have no choice but to lock them up.

However, again, politicians and the public miss the importance of early intervention. We need to be investing more funds into early intervention with at risk families so we can address the core issues which lead to youth crime. Locking young people up is prohibitively expensive and given the issues with recidivism, the economic costs are huge. For every dollar we spend on early intervention, we save a significant amount on future incarceration. Furthermore, it also cuts the crime rate by a significant margin. Unfortunately, it isnt really that appealing to the public so both parties chronically underinvest in the area.

 

[SylviaB]

I've just done a bit of research. From the sites listed below here are some statistics. Points are above the link it comes from.

So um, yeah I'm not rlly a big fan of these kinds of laws.

yeah, these statistics are meaningless because they're completely confounded

people who go to detention as youths are more likely to end up in prison as adults....yeah, no fucking shit, they're the kinds of people doing stuff bad enough as a teen to warrant going to detention. Of course they're more likely to end up in prison than people who weren't committing serious offenses

people who go to prison as youths have a higher premature death rate...yeah no shit, they're the sort of people who live unhealthy lifestyles, take risks, put themselves in dangerous situations, have mental illness etc.

As for "three quarters of indigenous people...".... honest question, have you ever lived somewhere with a large indigenous population before? As in in the same suburb or neighborhood or school as you? And specifically indigenous people who don't have blonde hair and blue eyes? These stats would not be surprising to you if you had.

And why are youth offenders lives being spoken about in isolation? There's always trade-offs involved. They need to be balanced against the harm that these people would do (murders, assaults, robberies etc) if they weren't incarcerated. It's meaningless to talk about the negative impact on offenders without reference to harm

 

[enoilgam]

depressing stuff honestly

Ive been to both adult prisons and Youth Justice centres in a professional context and despite looking the same, they are very different. Adult prisons are menacing places. Youth Justice centres are more like schools filled mostly with kids who have been abused and have nowhere to go. Honestly, they are probably the saddest places Ive been. Their busiest times of the year are Christmas and mid-winter. Why? A lot of those kids are abused and have nowhere else to go, so they intentionally commit crimes to go to juvie to get meals, structure and a warm bed. It is much more common then you think

 

[Socialism]

yeah, these statistics are meaningless because they're completely confounded

Ehh... They would be more meaningful if I had used them in like, an enormous essay or as rebuttals to things people said specifically

I was wondering how long it would be before you joined this thread
Any reason you haven't voted?

 

[HazzRat]

Yesterday Victoria’s Labor Government joined Queensland’s LNP government in adopting Adult Crime Adult Time laws due to rising youth crime. Youths in those states can now/soon face adult sentences for crimes like murder, aggravated home invasion, carjacking etc. The early intervention and rehabilitation experiment has failed. Should NSW and other states/territories follow suit?

I've gotta say, there's a massive difference between minor crimes such as casual drug use and shoplifting, compared to murder. I'd say for the serious crimes, sure, they should get the adult sentence, but for minor crimes, a more rehabilitative approach would be better to break the cycle of recidivism.

 

[flummi]

minors who commit crimes of such severities have a fucked amygdala function and lack impulse control, which is something also found in adult offenders, suggesting that their behaviours may have developed from similar underlying problems; so it'd be plausible to assume that those crimes deserve the same punishment. but obviously thats a shallow argument and additional consideration should be undergone for any incident before any sentencing

plus in a lot of cases, juvy wont suffice. the government should work on actual early intervention

 

[SylviaB]

Ehh... They would be more meaningful if I had used them in like, an enormous essay or as rebuttals to things people said specifically

I was wondering how long it would be before you joined this thread
Any reason you haven't voted?

They're meaningless becuase they're correlations. They're not proof of causation, and we should specifically expect many of these relationships to not be causal, because the kinds of people who go to detention as youths are very, very different on average in the first place to people who don't go to detention, so even in the abence of detention, we should expect these people to have vastly different life outcomes than everyone else.

 

[SylviaB]

minors who commit crimes of such severities have a fucked amygdala function and lack impulse control, which is something also found in adult offenders, suggesting that their behaviours may have developed from similar underlying problems; so it'd be plausible to assume that those crimes deserve the same punishment. but obviously thats a shallow argument and additional consideration should be undergone for any incident before any sentencing

plus in a lot of cases, juvy wont suffice. the government should work on actual early intervention

I think that considering things in terms of 'punishment' is the wrong approach.

If someone has significant issues with aggression, impulse control etc. such that they're committing extreme acts of violence at a young age, it doesn't make sense to punish them. But they absolutely need to be removed from society. Ideally they would be placed into a humane insitution that allows them to improve their wellbeing and psychology, but these significantly don't yet exist on the required scale, and many of these people are so violent and misbehaving that the only place that they won't be a danger to others is something like a conventional prison.

Yeah, it sucks for them that they have fucked up lives and biology, but it's completely farcical that a modern first-world country would let working Australians be terrorised by these people in the name of 'compassion'.

 

[enoilgam]

But they absolutely need to be removed from society. Ideally they would be placed into a humane insitution that allows them to improve their wellbeing and psychology, but these significantly don't yet exist on the required scale, and many of these people are so violent and misbehaving that the only place that they won't be a danger to others is something like a conventional prison.

I cant speak for all Youth Centres, but the ones I have experience with are extremely humane and focused on helping the kids. Absolutely nothing like the adult prisons.