who is absolutely sick of english? (2 Viewers)

[dissonance]

yeah, you could survive in a world without knowing HSC english. But this is the HIGHER school certificate. You're already extending your knowledge by applying it to those texts (no matter how simple they are). It is much english as you really need to know and this is why you have the option of leaving school at the end of year10

 

[mannnnndy]

but what if u dont want 2 leave after year 10? i know i said it b4 somewhere but i just think that making english compulsary is a crock of an idea. either make BOTH maths and english compulasry or neither, because it sucks that english ppl dont have 2 do maths but maths ppl do.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

"Thinking: The talking of the soul with itself." [1]

English is compulsary for a reason, not simply to improve how you communicate, but because the language in itself allows you to have a higher order of thinking.

I know I am going to be attacked for this, especially on a 4U Maths thread (English ppl help me here), but the fact is that English is more pertinent to the most important and fundamental issues of our existence. Do you think in binary? No, of course not. Maths, science, engineering, etc - "these are noble professions necessary to sustain life"[2], but English, English is making meaning out of that life.

English (or rather language, but we live in an English speaking country so I will say English) is the method in which we are able to define the human experience - it is the most important subect of all because it relates to the nature of humankind.

In maths, all the answers are waiting for you within the page - its all there to be worked out. It is the left-brain orientated (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all) people in general who seem to have more difficulty with English because it requires us to draw upon our imagination and reasoning skills that questions the purpose of the universe.

English provides the advancement of the understanding of self through the abilities of self-reflection and self-examination, and by doing so, directs the individual in determining their identity, and therefore taking one step closer to enlightenment and an authentic sense of being. In comparison, mathematics allows the logical resolution to numerical and geometrical physical problems, as well as theoretical mathematical aspects of the world which has no real significance to the extraction of a greater understanding of existence.

[1] Plato
[2] Dead Poets Society

 

[Marianna]

*coughbullshitcough*

at least in maths you know whether you are right or wrong...

don't get me wrong I love a good book, film, poem etc

but I'd rather write a 10 page proof than a 10 page critique on something like Austen's Pride and Prejudice and how it relates to the world today yarda yarda yarda

I say exercise the left side of the brain...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Originally posted by Marianna
*coughbullshitcough*

at least in maths you know whether you are right or wrong...

don't get me wrong I love a good book, film, poem etc

but I'd rather write a 10 page proof than a 10 page critique on something like Austen's Pride and Prejudice and how it relates to the world today yarda yarda yarda

I say exercise the left side of the brain...

Opinion considered, but where is beauty in maths? Where is justice? Where is free will? Where is there any significant meaning besides the essential calculation of numbers?

 

[spice girl]

Originally posted by MoonlightSonata
Opinion considered, but where is beauty in maths? Where is justice? Where is free will? Where is there any significant meaning besides the essential calculation of numbers?

"Beauty" in maths is called elegance. Unlike elegance in english, which is essentially pages and pages of descriptive crap, elegance in mathematics involves neat, short, innovative proofs. This is where "free will" comes in. You have the freedom to solve problems any way you like, as long as it follows logic. Being so, there can be no "justice" where logic does not exist.

Meaning is derived from mathematics in its applications. Before they transformed sciences into derivatives of English, physics and chemistry were just applied mathematics. The internet relies solely on the work of skilled programmers (another form of applied mathematics). Anybody can do calculations, it takes a mathematician to interpret those numbers to explain life as we perceive it.

 

[Big Willy]

Originally posted by MoonlightSonata


I'm not talking about how you answer questions in each subject, I'm talking about the whole purpose and core of the two. Beauty in English is the world. English deals with the nature of human existence.


Personally I think both are imperitive in the perpetuation of the human species, true, and that we need both in the world. Mathematical meaning does not reach the levels of interpreting the world and the self that English does. Mathematics are the hands of society, English the brain. I am not relating this to people, rather that Maths is a means to an end. English determines what that end is, and why it is so.

Yeah, thats great

 

[wogboy]

Imagine there was a huge war between the math and english students, what would happen? The math students would be using projectile motion knowledge to fire missiles @ the english students and english students would be defending themselves with poetry?? Maths rulz all the way. But seriously i reckon english & maths should both be compulsory (they're both just as important). i also reckon that this system of ur UAI being made of ur best 10 units IS FULL OF SHIT, and every1 must do 12 units. Eveything u do should count and if ur shit in a certain subject, bad luck cos u chose it. This new HSC sucks so bad & i want the old system.

 

[mannnnndy]

Originally posted by MoonlightSonata



Actually the war wouldn't take place because the English-apt people are responsible for the maintainence of peace and equality - an ideal taught in ENGLISH.

If you want to create items of mass destruction, then yes, maths is a exceptionally advantageous subject in the use of WAR TECHNIQUES.

In terms of REAL LIFE, as has been demonstrated quite exceedingly by various English supporters, English enables us to form superior arguements and thus justify our point of view better than you can with maths.

Who says that English ppl are responsible for the maintinence of peace? Thats almost like saying maths ppl are responsible for starting wars. Im sure that there are english AND maths ppl who BOTH want to maintain peace and equality. You can't just go out and say english ppl are the "good guys". And on the idea that peace and equality are taught in english, ive never been or know anyone who has been taught these ideals in a classroom. these are ideals that you learn from the ppl around you like friends and family (teachers from ALL subjects included), but NOT as a part of any course or subject.

As for war techniques, yes maths and science are used to create weapons, BUT maths and science can also be used to create things that benefit humanity such as the numerous medical breakthroughs that better the lives of many everyday. just because maths and science are used to create weapons it does not mean that maths and science are responsible for using them and starting wars. it is the ideas and policy of the person who controls them that decides whether or not they will be used.

On the idea of english allowing you to express your point of veiw better then maths, in quite a number of essays i have read by "authorities" i have found it hard to understand what they are trying to say. For the most part it appears to just be waffle where ideas are jumbled up throughout their essay. STRUCTURE was what was missing, and i think you'll find that structure is an area where maths ppl are quite good in as maths teaches structure through proofs and working, and to be able to express your veiw clearly STRUCTURE is a neccesity. so therefore maths is useful and important in the area of communication.

 

[Big Willy]

i have one thing to say to you:

 

[Big Willy]

Originally posted by MinAi
to be fairer on both sides, english should be compulsory, yet if it turns out to be your worst units, it shouldnt have to count for UAI...(however thinkin bout it, its flawed, cos ppl will purposely fail in order for it not to count)

are you for real?

 

[spice girl]

Rebuttal for MoonlightSonata:

1) First of all, it's argument, not "arguement".

2) You said "The fact remains that English is of far more significance than maths, because it pertains to our level of thinking".
Your level? It's an aspect of thinking. Surely you don't assume there's only one level of thinking that's truly appropriate to society.

3) You said "English enables us to form superior arguements and thus justify our point of view better than you can with maths".
You may have forgotten the phenomenon of language-endowed people doing all the waffling and political point-scoring, whilst it is the people behind-the-scenes, the people with the mathematically-related skills, that actually get jobs done.

"English involves looking at bigger issues and requires an open mind"? Yeh sure, where's your open mind? It's a paradox you say that and conclude that mathematics is characterised by the "narrow, pragmatic mindset" - an obvious generalisation derived from a closed mindset.

English embraces the concept of infinite answers to every question or problem. Mathematics insist a finite set of solutions. If you're out there looking for concrete, credible and reliable answers to your questions, what would you rely on? I know it depends on "what questions", but the idea is clear: if I give you a different answer every time you ask me the same question, you would think either a) I'm using language to my own advantage, or b) I'm not a very rational, logical and thus sensible person.

 

[mercurydrinker]

Originally posted by MoonlightSonata
To the above - my proof is the clarity and sophistication of my dicussion compared to your resorts to name calling and the apparent dogmatic approach from the people who so ardently believe maths is more important (primarily because they find English hard).

Your inability to comprehend English essays (and thus evaluation and justification) obviously extends to your lack of understanding the fundamentals of arguement. You are taking the metaphysical and understanding it on its most basic level, the literal, an apparent defect of mathematical reasoning.

The fact remains that English is of far more significance than maths, because it pertains to our level of thinking. Take for example Orwell's 1984. A control measure utilised in the suppression of social challenge and eliminating the language of the individual so that eventually they do not have the ability to articulate and express rebellious thoughts, was the concept of 'Newspeak', as well as the elimination and mass culling of vocabulary. This is an excellent example of how language constitutes the level of thought a person is capable of. Our ability to comprehend and in turn evaluate and reflect upon the world around us stems from language.

English involves looking at bigger issues and requires an open mind capable of entertaining larger concepts and issues than the narrow, pragmatic mindset that is required for the sucessful application of mathematics.

I love the way you think and I love that book (I just finished reading it). I just though you needed some back-up, so I decided to pop up in a *gasp* maths extension 2 forum.

Maths and science help you to understand the world, but art and literature help you understand human beings. thats why both are important.

And to those who say there's no use for English, I beg to differ. Communicaton skills, Interview, Writing and Reading skills are extremely important. English is just as practical as maths.

 

[Dumbarse]

Spice chick-1..... moonlightwhatsherface - 0
spice chicks argument dominated

just face the facts u english losers, your only good at it cause u suck at maths.. english is reading and writing, end of story.

obviously maths people are more interesting than english people otherwise u would be on your english link rather than trying to argue with us mathematicians

haha, u cant even win an argument and thats based on english, haha how pathetic are u moonhead, and thermometer drinker

 

[Dumbarse]

u english complainers are all oxymorons!

 

[Dumbarse]

hahaha, u really are pathetic. typo hey!? so in spelling the word argument, which u spelt arguement, somewhere between pushing the u and the m key u managed to push the e key, yeh now look at your keyboard and tell me seriously that that is a typo.... jeeze, at least maths people admit their mistakes, lets just all lie
and if i were to tell someone i loved em i would do it from the heart, why would i need english skills for that, "radius of your eyes" yeh sick argument miss illiterate, i think u should go back to 6th grade and learn to spell

 

[mercurydrinker]

Originally posted by Dumbarse
Spice chick-1..... moonlightwhatsherface - 0
spice chicks argument dominated

just face the facts u english losers, your only good at it cause u suck at maths.. english is reading and writing, end of story.

obviously maths people are more interesting than english people otherwise u would be on your english link rather than trying to argue with us mathematicians

haha, u cant even win an argument and thats based on english, haha how pathetic are u moonhead, and thermometer drinker

Thats ridiculous, there are plenty of people who excel at both maths and english, theres heaps of people in my school just like that.

English is more than just reading and writing, its about communication skills and expression as well, both very important things...

The reason why I'm on this forum is cos I usually go to the "most recent posts" link, when I saw the topic I didn't see what forum it was in exactly, but I looked like something interesting to argue against...

 

[mercurydrinker]

Originally posted by Dumbarse
hahaha, u really are pathetic. typo hey!? so in spelling the word argument, which u spelt arguement, somewhere between pushing the u and the m key u managed to push the e key, yeh now look at your keyboard and tell me seriously that that is a typo.... jeeze, at least maths people admit their mistakes, lets just all lie
and if i were to tell someone i loved em i would do it from the heart, why would i need english skills for that, "radius of your eyes" yeh sick argument miss illiterate, i think u should go back to 6th grade and learn to spell

In what way didn't he admit his mistake? he said it was a typo (therefore a mistake)...

I'm sure you have never spelt anything wrong or made a typo.

note: there was sarcasm in that post, in case you couldn't find it

 

[spice girl]

Hehehe...Mercury's also right

I use english to communicate with non-mathematicians, and there's an awful lot of these around. I use english to communicate with mathematicians, because maths is inappropriate for normal communication. In fact I use english to communicate, because that's it's main purpose of existence.

Whereas maths serves another purpose. I dun need to go thru all this again.

It's really funny how my english teachers always seems to be at war with my maths teachers. Soon, my principal says that they'll be in opposite rooms of the same building, which would be interesting!

 

[spice girl]

Originally posted by Bon
The smartest people I know - when I say smartest, I mean the people who I have the best debates with and the deepest conversations with are people who do 4u or 3u math/physics/SDD.

In fact I know a lot of smart people who don't do SDD, by smart I mean 100.00 UAI estimates.