Are people smugglers doing good? (2 Viewers)

[Will Shakespear]

Kevin Rudd on people smugglers:
Video - Rudd: Smugglers can 'rot in hell' - The Age

he calls them "The vilest form of human life" and also "scum of the earth" and also says they "can rot in hell" :s


Graney on people smugglers:

Alleged.

I seriously think people smuggling (in regards to refugees alone) is generally moral. There'll be instances of immorality, but the overrall principle and spirit is right. It really is the only option for these people. It's a huge investment to secure a place on one of these boats, the kind of money that would buy a very good life in the countries they're fleeing, the only reason they'd waste such a large amount of money is if their life is in danger if they were not to leave their home country.

People smugglers are doing the right thing in providing a necessary service to rescue people in peril. It's completely fair for them to charge a fee for this service, they can only possibly help a limited number of people, charging a fee, making money keeps the business sustainable and enables them to help more people. The people smugglers would prefer not to lose their boats and staff, but it's unavoidable due to the harrassment they face from the state.

I'm for the rule of law where it's appropriate and fair, but these people have no legal recourse, the law is absurd. I have no respect for the law that condemns people to die. People smugglers are heroic, I have great respect for their work.

other stuff:
'Scum of earth' ply dangerous trade - Local News - News - General - The Canberra Times

People smuggling is big business.
Amnesty International estimates as many as four million people are trafficked or smuggled across international borders each year. The value of this criminal trade has been estimated to exceed $US10billion ($A14billion) a year.
In the past two decades the processes of globalisation, economic instability and persistent civil conflicts have caused unprecedented migration from some of the least developed and most troubled parts of the Middle East, Africa, Asia, South America and Eastern Europe to Western Europe, North America and Australia.
People smuggling has boomed as Western nations have progressively restricted and closed legal avenues for asylum seekers and forced them to rely on the help of criminal networks to have any chance of arriving at their destination.

they're clearly not nice ppl... but are they doing good?

 

[Iron]

Theyre undermining the soverign right of a nation to choose who comes into this country and the circumstances in which they come ^_^
Once you talk about profit, you surrender any right to good imo. The market is morally blind

 

[Iron]

The film Children of Men has challenged my views on foogies, but idk. The reality is that governments provide citizens with a whole lot of services today and individuals are capable of doing much more damage to a government/society than they ever could before, both maliciously, medically... The controls are necessary.

 

[jb_nc]

The film Children of Men has challenged my views on foogies, but idk. The reality is that governments provide citizens with a whole lot of services today and individuals are capable of doing much more damage to a government/society than they ever could before, both maliciously, medically... The controls are necessary.

A Treatise of Human Nature¹.

1. Cuarón, A. (Director & Screenplay). Based on a novel by P. D. James (2006). Children of Men. United Kingdom: Universal Pictures.

 

[Iron]

Yeah it's pretty good aye

 

[Sir-BigBoyJames]

Fucking illegal aliens

 

[jb_nc]

Fucking illegal aliens

um, bro, there are no un OR australian embassies in space

wtf are they meant to do

 

[Sir-BigBoyJames]

um, bro, there are no un OR australian embassies in space

wtf are they meant to do

umm its an American saying.

 

[Graney]

they're clearly not nice ppl...

Well that's not really fair, you haven't even taken the chance to get to know them.

There are clearly some cases that are evil, particularly the international trade in prostitution. Women are lured to Australia with the promise of a free trip and a good income, and then are forced to pay off 'debts' of tens of thousands of dollars to their employers, working for years without ever receiving money.

But refugees are cool.

I don't see how the government can justify its policy of trying to repel boats before they can reach Australian soil, in order to prevent the passengers from applying for asylum. Especially the continuation of the Howard governments policy of excising a number of pacific islands from Australia's migration zone. Regardless of the morality of people smuggling, they surely at least deserve the opportunity to apply for asylum. They can receive the fair process they deserve and be rejected if they fail.

 

[jb_nc]

umm its an American saying.

lol

 

[Iron]

Well that's not really fair, you haven't even taken the chance to get to know them.

There are clearly some cases that are evil, particularly the international trade in prostitution. Women are lured to Australia with the promise of a free trip and a good income, and then are forced to pay off 'debts' of tens of thousands of dollars to their employers, working for years without ever receiving money.

But refugees are cool.

I don't see how the government can justify its policy of trying to repel boats before they can reach Australian soil, in order to prevent the passengers from applying for asylum. Especially the continuation of the Howard governments policy of excising a number of pacific islands from Australia's migration zone. Regardless of the morality of people smuggling, they surely at least deserve the opportunity to apply for asylum. They can receive the fair process they deserve and be rejected if they fail.

In a strict sense, why do they deserve anything from our government? How to deal with aliens is totally left to our discretion; they have no inherent access to our legal system.

But I think that your position is fairly reasonable. I envisage floating courts as sort of mother ships to various little patrol boats around the border. Most people are sensible enough to conceed that processing is essential

 

[Graney]

In a strict sense, why do they deserve anything from our government? How to deal with aliens is totally left to our discretion; they have no inherent access to our legal system.

I've been wondering how to address the gap between refugees and moral nihilism. Maybe we should accept none, shoot on sight.

Either way, a bit of consistency would be good. The government claims to accept the right of refugees to apply for asylum and receive legal process. In light of this, excising pacific islands from the migration zone is a bit rich.

You're right on the point about profit and morality. They're just doing a job. In the same way that ciggarette manufacturers are not immoral because of the ends, paramedics and doctors have no moral highground, people smugglers are neither moral nor immoral. They're good, in as much as any man, working to the best of his ability and providing a demanded service, can be considered to be good.

Rudd's gone way ott to compare them to pedophiles and mass murderers.

 

[Lentern]

I'm yet to hear of any benevolent ones as such, but if someone were to say charge only as much as the trip will cost to complete maybe slightly more, take as many safety precautions as they reasonably could and were taking someone out of a real hell hole then I would say they were both a very noble person and a people smuggler. But that can't be said for most of them.

 

[Iron]

I've been wondering how to address the gap between refugees and moral nihilism. Maybe we should accept none, shoot on sight.

Either way, a bit of consistency would be good. The government claims to accept the right of refugees to apply for asylum and receive legal process. In light of this, excising pacific islands from the migration zone is a bit rich.
.

Not only that, but we seek all this cooperation with Indonesia to essentially save us the embarrasment of turning them back ourselves.

 

[08er]

how can you place monetary value on such activities anyway?

 

[along]

Amnesty International is about protecting human rights yet the government's regulatory control has undermined the rights of human beings by conceding the arrival of such parties as unlawful. However, on the other hand, obviously there needs to be some control over these arrivals or else we will be expecting exponential increases in the near future, which will further prompt authorities to increase measures of power over discussed smuggling issues. There is really no solution to this problem.

 

[Venetiad]

People smuggling is bad, in two ways (imo).

1. Its a rort, and unfortunately, since its illegal, most cases are in a monopoly situation. People can fork out their entire life savings to get to another country (this continues in to my second point). These smugglers are making enormous amounts of money off the suffering of people. Think of it that way and ask yourself if its makes sense. Would you like to make money DIRECTLY off the suffering off people?

2. It disturbs the economy which the smuggled are entering. Jobs are limited, and in the current financial crisis, the effect will be even more devastating. Many people work illegally (that is; they are citizens of australia who don't properly declare their incomes, avoiding taxation etc.) in Australia, and an influx of more illegal foreigners who can't possibly legally get a job since they arent legally allowed to be here will only cause the pool of illegal workers to rise. You also need to consider that illegal immigrants would tend to accept a lower wage as an offset to the danger of hiring someone who can drag the employer in to trouble with the law. Again, this has the potential to throw out proper workers for this cheap labour.


Also, The lower incomes that these illegal immigrants would accept causes a lower standard of living. It wouldn't actually contribute to any kind of proper investigation since they aren't registered, but it definately propogates the lower standard of living (through job losses/lower wages/etc).


People smuggling probably wouldn't even be a crime if it didn't effect the recieving nation.

 

[Will Shakespear]

People smuggling is bad, in two ways (imo).

1. Its a rort, and unfortunately, since its illegal, most cases are in a monopoly situation. People can fork out their entire life savings to get to another country (this continues in to my second point). These smugglers are making enormous amounts of money off the suffering of people. Think of it that way and ask yourself if its makes sense. Would you like to make money DIRECTLY off the suffering off people?

2. It disturbs the economy which the smuggled are entering. Jobs are limited, and in the current financial crisis, the effect will be even more devastating. Many people work illegally (that is; they are citizens of australia who don't properly declare their incomes, avoiding taxation etc.) in Australia, and an influx of more illegal foreigners who can't possibly legally get a job since they arent legally allowed to be here will only cause the pool of illegal workers to rise. You also need to consider that illegal immigrants would tend to accept a lower wage as an offset to the danger of hiring someone who can drag the employer in to trouble with the law. Again, this has the potential to throw out proper workers for this cheap labour.


Also, The lower incomes that these illegal immigrants would accept causes a lower standard of living. It wouldn't actually contribute to any kind of proper investigation since they aren't registered, but it definately propogates the lower standard of living (through job losses/lower wages/etc).


People smuggling probably wouldn't even be a crime if it didn't effect the recieving nation.

so what we should do is close the borders and make the minimum wage $500/hr

everyone would be rich!

 

[Graney]

how can you place monetary value on such activities anyway?

We have a system where people may exchange money for goods, or in this case services. Travel services are are an example of a commonly traded commodity.

The exact value is determined by what people are willing to pay.

I'm yet to hear of any benevolent ones as such, but if someone were to say charge only as much as the trip will cost to complete maybe slightly more, take as many safety precautions as they reasonably could and were taking someone out of a real hell hole then I would say they were both a very noble person and a people smuggler. But that can't be said for most of them.

Why is making money evil? Why do you hate capitalism? The providers only charge what people are happy to pay.

It's a premium service, it will never be appropriate or sustainable to supply such services on a budget platform.

since its illegal, most cases are in a monopoly situation.

Why would any illegal activity be a monopoly? What makes you think it's a monopoly? If they're charging too much, what would stop another group of criminals setting up in competition?

The only way to lower prices to a more equitable level, would be for the governments in the countries of origin, to legalise and regulate people smuggling.

People can fork out their entire life savings to get to another country (this continues in to my second point).

They're not forcing people at gun point to hand over their life savings and get on the boat. They do it entirely of their free will. Clearly the refugees think they're getting a good service and on-balance, the price is fair.

These smugglers are making enormous amounts of money off the suffering of people. Think of it that way and ask yourself if its makes sense. Would you like to make money DIRECTLY off the suffering off people?

Farmers make money DIRECTLY off the hungry and starving. Pharmacuetical companies make money DIRECTLY off the sick and dying. Landlords make money DIRECTLY off the poor and homeless. Lawyers make money DIRECTLY from the victims of crime.

Despicable.

 

[sinophile]

People smugglers are doing no good. But they also simultanouesly do good as well. This is a case of 'lesser of two evils', and im leaning towards the side that people smugglers are doing the best they can, given their circumstances.

-Yes it is true that people smugglers are making money from the suffering of people. However, you need to separate the motive from the action.
-They are offering a service to people in need. The majority of boat people enter an agreement to be smuggled out of their country knowing the risks involved (including piracy on the high seas, the large risk of being stranded or drowned etc). Smugglers are not forcing their passengers to be smuggled, hence cannot be held responsible for whatever bad shit happens to them.
-In fact, people smugglers are doing lots of good, because they are saving lives and providing an opportunity for a better life in other countries.
-Yes, it is true that in doing the deed, people smugglers are doing something bad (e.g exposing people to piracy, being drowned as per before). However, this risk is far preferable to the risks involved in staying in the country. Refugees try to escape their country knowing the risks involved. They are merely replacing a larger risk with a smaller one.

-I personally believe the fact that 'refugees steal our jobs' is whining. People ought to roll with the increasing competition. You cannot blame refugees for being harder working and more industrious than others in their new coutnry, and then expect them to leave so you can maintain your own laziness. In fact, the influx of people serves to stimulate the economy, by increasing the population (and hence demand for products) and increasing competition (raising the employment standard).

Being the son of a generation of boat people, I see little reason why western countries should not accept refugees, nor do I believe people smugglers are doing as much wrong as people think they do. Especially for countries like Australia, we have an obligation to accept the refugees created by the result of our own aggression.