Students Against Scaling - Post Here! (4 Viewers)

[Zedez]

I bet you're some first year tafe student with a shit UAI because you did nothing all of year 12 and now go on and on about scaling etc.

Lol at that, but he's only in Year 10.

Still, that does point out my original point that at the end of the day most students UAIs seem to have a strong correlation between effort and academic ability, so it can't be that bad a system.

 

[tommykins]

He's a year kid.

Just has a warped UNJUSTIFIED elitist point of view.

 

[cutemouse]

So make 4U Maths scale the same as, say, General maths?

I don't think so.

 

[Rockyroad]

The OP seems to be suggesting that there are no hard or easy subjects - there are only different people with different interests and different abilities in different areas. Is this what u think?
As some person above said, some subjects are harder than each other. Period. If there was no 'scaling' then the average student that does Physics will get a lower mark than his also average twin brother who does Community and Family Studies. How is this fair?
Mmm perhaps that wasn't the best example. But having no scaling isn't fair when there are harder and easier subjects. So yea, suggest an alternative?

 

[duckcowhybrid]

+1

+2

Stop changing your fucking Subject Choices James. No maths to 3U to 2U to General to 3U to no Maths. French came and went. Italian Extension came and went. SOR1 came out of nowhere. Hospitality came and Vetenary Science was in there for a while. Now DT/Chem have joined the party. Make up your goddamn mind.

 

[helper]

The OP seems to be suggesting that there are no hard or easy subjects - there are only different people with different interests and different abilities in different areas. Is this what u think?

The original post seems all about moderation and has nothing about scaling in it.

 

[aussie-boy]

No, it is only luck is you have not prepared properly and are guessing.

You don't get what I'm saying, and its too hard to explain. Surely you don't believe that 2 people with the same intelligence and work ethic will get identical UAIs regardless of which subjects they choose? (the only way scaling can be justified IMO??)

Because some subjects are harder than others. Period. And the UAI is designed to compensate for that.

And what I mean is, the lower scaling subjects would have to be studied in High School at the level that those subjects (or equivelent courses) are currently studied at Uni, whilst those higher scalling subjects would have to be taught at what is currently Year 9-10 level. I mean, how are you going to make 4 Unit Maths the same difficulty as PDHPE? You can't.

I know the changes that would be required, and you can't use the threat of change on its own to justify the status quo.

You can definitely make PDHPE and 4 unit maths of equal difficulty... you could take any number of complex things from medicine/physiotherapy

Thats hypothetical though, all I would advocate is making all 2 unit subjects of equal difficulty.

 

[Timothy.Siu]

but thats the problem, how are they going to make every 2 unit subject the same difficulty?
surely people will complain every year due to imbalanced tests for different subjects.
theres like 50-100 (rough guess) subjects and no person will be able to monitor all of them to check if they're the same. that would be too hard.
this system could also turn out to be MORE unfair than the current system.

i agree that 2 identical people would get different UAI's if they did different subjects but this would be marginal.
the current system if the MOST fair system that is logical.

 

[Tully B.]

I think its incredibly unfair... really favours students with 'academic' interests.

Consider 2 students, same IQ and same work ethnic. Student A loves English; student B loves design and technology.

Under the current system, student A will get a better scaled mark. The English course is more difficult, you don't have to scrape those elusive final marks in assessments/the exam because its scaled up so much.

Personally, I loved economics and would have got a raw mark of 90+. I found 3 unit maths extremely difficult, didnt do much work and probably got 50-60% in the HSC exam. Yet my maths mark was higher than my eco mark. Wtf? The fact that BOS decided to compensate via scaling rather than via making eco more difficult cost me dearly.

IMO, all major subjects should be available at high levels of difficulty, to the point where scaling of raw marks would not be required.

When you it favors kids with "academic" interests, do you mean it favors kids who are trying to get a "high UAI"?

Yes, English is better scaled, as DT is found, in general, to be easier by its cohort. Scaling makes it so that, overall, it's equally easy to get a certain mark over a broad spectrum of subjects. It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty fucking good. Why do you think they're considering making the NSW HSC the basis of a national system?

Bytheway, if you had gotten a 90+ raw mark for economics, your scaled mark would have been 90+. Eco doesn't scale that badly. Stop complaining.

 

[Schoey93]

+2

Stop changing your fucking Subject Choices James. No maths to 3U to 2U to General to 3U to no Maths. French came and went. Italian Extension came and went. SOR1 came out of nowhere. Hospitality came and Vetenary Science was in there for a while. Now DT/Chem have joined the party. Make up your goddamn mind.

OK, Hybrid. First, this is totally off-topic. Second, I have decided to not study mathematics for the Higher School Certificate because I see little point in attending classes for a subject that I can discover for myself. I would much rather work at my own pace and do interesting little pieces of mathematics is my free periods and at home than have boring work thrust upon me by a middle-aged, pedantic and strangely nostalgic mathematics (advanced) teacher (my current teacher or any other one of the elderly female mathematics secondary school teachers from Marian College Kenthurst are likely to teach the subject next year).

Third, I was always going to do Studies of Religion I. It is a compulsory subject as I attend a Catholic school. I did not bother to list it previously because it was irrelevant to list an extra subject that I am being forced to do, which may not even count to my UAI when I intend to carry 12 units into the HSC year (Year 12). Chemistry was on my subject choice draft some time ago. D&T 'joined the party' because I was inspired by the TAS Coordinator at my school to choose it for 2010-2011 because it has diverse relevance - it can be made to relate to any hobbies or interests a student has.

I am working on a proposal for a slightly different UAI system which I will post in a few minutes or tomorrow morning.



James

Edit: If it is of any interest to you, which I doubt it will be, I have decided not to pursue Veterinary Science (for now) and I aim to gain entry into an Australian National University (ANU) Bachelor of Medical Science, which has a UAI requirement of 90.00. Chemistry is the only necessary prequisite for the course and mathematics is not required at all. You can do it as part of your degree if you choose mathematics electives, which are obviously not all compulsory.

 

[dizzyizzy]

I love watching people cut James down.

 

[Zedez]

Yes, the UAI is designed to measure a students academic ability. How else are they supposed to choose who gets into Uni? If you do not have 'academic interests', don't get your UAI, because you won't need it, and it is not for people who do not need it (i.e. don't want to go to Uni). Do the subjects that aid you best in what you want to do post school, and you will have your marks in those subjects and that will be enough for an employer. If, however, you want to measure which students are best suited for Uni, then the UAI is the closest thing you will ever get to perfect, short of the Uni's going through everybodys mark individually and trying to decide which kid to let in, which is next to impossible when they have all done different subjects.

 

[Schoey93]

Univerities Admission Index, System Changes - A Proposal by James Schofield
Copyright 2009 James Schofield

The Universities Admission Index is a ranking system which enables academics to calculate with the aid of technolgy, ranks for Australian senior high school students. Queensland is the only state to not adopt the UAI or TER (Tertiary Entrance Ranking) or ENTER system, instead calculating an OP (Overall Position) for students, with OPs ranging from 1 (first in state overall) and OP 25 (last). Some students are ineligible to receive an OP.

It is recommended that all states and territories in Australia adopt the Universities Admission Index system. Also recommended is changing the name given to this rank, therefore ensuring all states and territories' universities calculate a UAI (Universities Admission Index) for students. Ranks will range from 1 - 99.95, with increments of 0.05 separating two students who have achieved similar standards across all of their UAI subjects to the value of 10 units (600 indicative/class-time hours). All student who have received both a School-based Assessment Mark and a Higher School Certificate External Exam Mark in UAI subjects adding to a value of 10 units (600 class time hours per year) will be eligible to receive a UAI. UAIs of 29.95 and below are recommended to be available to low achieving and mentally disadvantaged students for the first time, as it is suggested that Year 10 students who have left school for education at a TAFE college, to join the workforce or to not attend school and follow any path they may choose, not be included in the calculation of the nation-wide Universities Admission Indexes.

Furthermore, it is suggested that scaling be removed from the UAI calculation process. Instead, it is recommended that caps be imposed on certain subjects. A cap would be a way of limiting the maximum mark that is able to be achieved in particular courses. A select range of courses would be capped, each to a different individual mark, and the maximum achievable mark in each HSC subject would be the toal possible marks that may be achieved in the external assessment/exam. Capped subjects would include all the Vocational Education and Training (VET) courses, Standard English, General Mathematics, Ancient History, Agriculture, Community and Family Studies (CAFS), Design & Technology, Food Technology, Earth and Environmental Science Geography, Information Processes and Technology, Industrial Technology (all streams) Modern History, Personal Devlopment/Health/Physical Education (PD/H/PE), Textiles & Design and Visual Arts. Caps would also be imposed on all Beginners languages other than English (LOTE) courses, a high cap would be imposed on all Continuers LOTE courses and all Background Speakers LOTE courses would also be capped. Non-UAI subjects, e.g. Work Studies would still be available to students looking for a uniquely practical educational experience.

 

[withoutaface]

Its pretty much impossible to get 95+ in an exam, because of the little obscure marks here and there attained by little more than luck... so despite a really good raw mark, under the current system, it still wont be equivalent to an average mark scaled up in a difficult subject

If I can get 98% in my 3u maths trial then some little cunt with an interest in woodwork can get 95% in D&T.

Now fuck off.

 

[kwabon]

So make 4U Maths scale the same as, say, General maths?

I don't think so.

+1, i will kill myself if that ever happens

 

[Schoey93]

+1, i will kill myself if that ever happens

Refer to my previous posts, I never suggested this. You obviously haven't followed the topic much. General Maths would have a cap imposed on it in the system I see as fair. The subject content of all subjects would stay the same, it could be adjusted to suit the needs of all Australian senior high school students with the induction of the national curriculum in 2011-2013 (Rudd's idea, not mine).

E.g.

General Maths would have a cap of 92. That would be the maximum achievable mark in the subject. The HSC external assessment would be marked out of 92 for General Maths, so all students would be aware of this and would be advised which subjects are capped when in Year 10 and selected HSC subjects. The School-based Assessment Mark would also be a mark out of a possible 92 marks, as would the final HSC mark. Aligning and moderating would not occur.

Students would receive their raw mark. The top student would be awarded the mark they achieved, whether that be 92 or <92.

 

[brad616]

hello all,

my name is james. I am a year 10 student studying toward my n.s.w. School certificate this year. I have read extensively about the n.s.w. Higher school certificate marking processes. A brief summary of the n.s.w. H.s.c. Marking process follows.

higher school certificate - record of achievement - student x
order of marks: internal assessment mark, h.s.c. Examination mark, h.s.c. Mark
ancient history - 79, 74, 77 (band 4)
chemistry - 92, 85, 89 (band 5)
english advanced - 87, 94, 91 (band 6)
english extension 1 - 48, 46, 47 (band e4)
mathematics - 84, 89, 87 (band 5)
mathematics extension 1 - 42, 39, 41 (band e3)
extension subjects - moderated marks band cut offs
e4 - 45+
e3 - 35-44
e2 - 25-34
e1 - 1-24

these results equate to a u.a.i. (universities admission index) of approximately 88.5.

The internal assessment mark is equal to the external h.s.c. Examination mark corresponding to the student's rank in their subject's cohort (within the school).

The external h.s.c. Exam mark is the mark the student obtained in their external assessment, including the submission of projects if applicable and the external exam result. The student's raw mark in the external h.s.c. Assessment is converted to a percentage. This percentage is then aligned up slightly to show the standard the student has achieved in the course. An external exam mark of 50 represents the minimum standard expected in a course. Please note that to obtain a mark of 50 a student need not actually score 50% raw in the external assessment or exam. A student need only score a mark which is chosen to represent the minimum standard in an h.s.c. Course.



Now, who thinks this system is unfair?

me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aussie-boy]

Refer to my previous posts, I never suggested this. You obviously haven't followed the topic much. General Maths would have a cap imposed on it in the system I see as fair. The subject content of all subjects would stay the same, it could be adjusted to suit the needs of all Australian senior high school students with the induction of the national curriculum in 2011-2013 (Rudd's idea, not mine).

E.g.

General Maths would have a cap of 92. That would be the maximum achievable mark in the subject. The HSC external assessment would be marked out of 92 for General Maths, so all students would be aware of this and would be advised which subjects are capped when in Year 10 and selected HSC subjects. The School-based Assessment Mark would also be a mark out of a possible 92 marks, as would the final HSC mark. Aligning and moderating would not occur.

Students would receive their raw mark. The top student would be awarded the mark they achieved, whether that be 92 or <92.

Your system still doesn't fix the problem of system favouritism towards subjects whose interests lie in areas where difficult subjects are offered.

In fact it deepens the level of inequality, especially when you cap obviously difficult subjects like history. (as per your previous post)

And when I was talking about "academic" subjects before, I was referring to english, maths, classics and some sciences - many other subjects are just as relevant towards a uni education and future career

 

[Uncle]

Well it is inevitable that Mathematics Extension 2, Physics, Chemsitry and the like contains a better cohort of people than the shithouse General Maths, Standard English and so on.

No easy way out there!

I love watching people cut James down.

Fuck james ruse.

 

[undalay]

Refer to my previous posts, I never suggested this. You obviously haven't followed the topic much. General Maths would have a cap imposed on it in the system I see as fair. The subject content of all subjects would stay the same, it could be adjusted to suit the needs of all Australian senior high school students with the induction of the national curriculum in 2011-2013 (Rudd's idea, not mine).

E.g.

General Maths would have a cap of 92. That would be the maximum achievable mark in the subject. The HSC external assessment would be marked out of 92 for General Maths, so all students would be aware of this and would be advised which subjects are capped when in Year 10 and selected HSC subjects. The School-based Assessment Mark would also be a mark out of a possible 92 marks, as would the final HSC mark. Aligning and moderating would not occur.

Students would receive their raw mark. The top student would be awarded the mark they achieved, whether that be 92 or <92.

That's the same as "scaling".
General:
E.g. for every 10% in the final exam they get 9.2 raw marks

4u:
For every 10% in the final exam they get 10 raw marks.

Only your version is much more linear (and more shit.)