what proof is there that god exists? (4 Viewers)

[tommykins]

I don't know what to tell you buddy.

I mean, God could be speaking to you through me right now.
he could be knocking on your door ' let me in'

do you open the door, or do you ignore it?

what do you do?

do you ignore the door, hoping for another knock?

lol...that's nonsense.

you can relay that to anything that occurs.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

I mean, God could be speaking to you through me right now.
he could be knocking on your door ' let me in'

Yeah and maybe Zeus is trying to talk to him through the toaster.

 

[theism]

lol...that's nonsense.

you can relay that to anything that occurs.

of course.
he knocks often.
lol

LOL!

I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh.

Seriously now, for me too beleive that indeed god exists, I need actual, fool-proof, rock-hard evidence (maybe some clear, in-my-face-indication or sign). Otherwise, all I can conclude is that god is but a figment of your imagination.

well that doesn't exist.
that's why it's called faith.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Many people think that if they place their faith in Christ, they will have to commit intellectual suicide. They don't realize that Christ died to take away their sins, not their brains. Christians don't deposit their brains at the coat-check window and pick them back up on their way to heaven.

You can go to two extremes when it comes to the subjects of faith and reason.The first is to say that faith needs no reason: we just trust God without reservation then leap off the high board into the dark. But the fact is that Christianity does have a basis in history and in logic. There is evidence that Jesus was an actual historical person. The New Testament writings,the writings of Josephus and other first-century historians document this.

The second extreme is to say that if an idea is not logical, if it has no basis in rational thinking, then it has no place in my belief system. If you follow that thinking to its conclusion, then you have to throw out a lot of the miracles and healings in Scripture since logically people do not rise from the dead, logically the crust of leprosy does not fall off the body of its victim at the touch of a hand, and legs crippled for nearly forty years do not unhinge and become new because someone tells them to get up.

This is the balance people need to keep in mind when they say they are too rational to have faith, when they say they won't believe in something unless they can see it. Some have even said, "Cliffe, I wish I had your faith."Sometimes people mean this sincerely, but often they really mean, "Cliffe, I cannot be so stupid, so intellectually naive to believe all the superstition and garbage about God that you've apparently swallowed." In a way that issue is moot. All of us believe in things we can't see. All of us place our trust in things that are not plainly evident. We believe in team spirit, patriotism, love, and goodness. Although we can't reach out and grasp any of these values, and though we so often see them misused and flaunted for selfish gain, we still believe they exist and often believe they have value.

Every one of us has faith. Every one of us believes in someone or something that gives us direction in life, that gives us security. Peter Schaeffer wrote a play titled Equus. In the play a young boy begins to worship a picture of Jesus hanging over his bed. The boy's father, who is a devout atheist, rips the picture off the wall and replaces it with a photograph of a horse. The young boy, needing meaning and purpose, begins to worship the picture of the horse. The father gets more upset and sends the boy to a psychiatrist to have this fixation removed.

As the psychiatrist begins talking to the boy, he gains some understanding that was not apparent to the father. The boy does not have a fixation on Christ or a fixation on horses; the psychiatrist realizes that the picture gives the boy meaning, purpose and direction.

Schaeffer's point is clear. Whatever motivates us defines who we are. Live for pleasure-you are a hedonist. Live to amass wealth-you are a materialist. Live for personal happiness and fulfillment-you are a narcissist. Live to pursue knowledge-you are a rationalist.

The British writer G. K Chesterton said that when a person stops believing in God, he does not believe in nothing. He will believe in anything.

The question I put to those who tell me they won't believe unless it's rational is, "What is the object of your faith? Whom do you trust?" If the object of your faith is not trustworthy, it is not reliable. Real faith in something or someone that is trustworthy is not blind. Real faith will include the evidence to buttress it, and personal commitment. The faith of a Christian is based on the trustworthiness of Jesus Christ. Jesus stated, "The Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve,and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28). Jesus gave us the evidence to back up his words; he consistently assumed the posture of a servant. Even at the very end of his public ministry, on the very night he was betrayed, he assumed the posture of the lowliest servant and washed his disciples' feet.

One day Peter asked Jesus, " 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered,'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times' " (Mt 18:21-22).He spoke of complete and utter forgiveness.

Jesus gave us the evidence to back up his words. As he was bleeding and dying on the cross, his enemies taunted him. His response? He prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He proved his trustworthiness; he proved his evidence was sound, and he asks us to trust him on the basis of that evidence.

A few people carry their inquiry even further. They say, "I must know absolutely that Christ alone is the truth before I can believe in him."This can be intellectual arrogance carried to an extreme. It requires that God give enough evidence of his existence to satisfy an insatiable intellect.This kind of arrogance demands that God meet every one of my requirements before I believe in him.

Suppose I demanded that my wife, Sharon, risk her life for me repeatedly to prove her love for me. Once would never be enough. The insatiability of my desire to know absolutely would be cruel manipulation, not intellectual integrity.

Yet many of us do exactly the same thing with God. We continually deny his past trustworthiness and say, "Now, what have you done for me lately?"This kind of wheeling and dealing is not intellectual prowess. It is cowardly manipulation. It also separates the proud from the humble. The proud say,"God, you meet these requirements, then I'll decide whether or not I want to believe in you." The humble person will look for evidence, discover it, and trust that if God was true to his word yesterday, he will be true to it today.
Confronting what I feel is intellectual dishonesty is never easy. It means having the discernment to know whether or not the intellectual arguments people offer are sincere. All of us need help in this area. If I confess my own intellectual and moral insincerity before God, I will be one step closer to being the kind of authentic witness God wants me to be.[/FONT]

 

[theism]

lmaooooooo

i do believe this thread is not a coincidence..

you know how they say your brain is like 10km.. your concentration is 30cm.
now i've brought you aware of it, it'll pop up more explicitly.

for instance.
maybe you drink, get drunk, and start thinking, or talking (or refutting) about God.

 

[theism]

Well I can't put faith in something if I don't know for sure whether or not it exists, period

would i be correct in saying..
the reason you're an atheist is because the evidence for the existence of God is lacking..

if so,
what are you living for,
and what is the evidence that whatever it is you're living for is reliable?

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

would i be correct in saying..
the reason you're an atheist is because the evidence for the existence of God is lacking..

if so,
what are you living for,
and what is the evidence that whatever it is you're living for is reliable?

Don't be trying to throw that shit in there.

The question of whether there is a god is totally different to the question of whether we may like there to be a god or some sort of purpose for our existence.

Just because we may like something to be true does not increase the probability that it is true (not that I would like it to be true that there is a "celestial dictatorship" that I am forced into for eternity).

 

[tommykins]

of course.
he knocks often.
lol

how do YOU know that?

 

[theism]

okay hold on.

I live my life for love; happiness; personal satisfation/achievment; etc.

what is the evidence that the purpose of human existence is to live for love; happiness ; personal satisfaction, and achievement?

 

[theism]

I don't know about everyone else's but that's mine.
Love: i have a boyfriend, mother, sister. I seek closeness, comfort etc from them and they from me. people have boyfriends, girlfriends, childrent etc.
personal statisfaction/achievement: i intend to go uni, get a degree, find a job. doing that will give me a sense of personal satisfaction. idk?
happiness: isn't it obvious that all humans seek some form of happiness? idk how to explain. happiness will come when i achieved my other goals in life.


lols, after reading all that, it sounds kinda lame >.< but yeh

hmm.
okay

now please pay attention closely to this part.

i asked you why you can't believe in God.
and you said because of lack of evidence.

okay.
i have to respect that.

but then i've asked you, what are you living for, and what is the evidence that what you are living for, is true.

now what i've asked you to do is, compare the evidence for the existence of God, with the evidence that the purpose of human existence (at least to you) is for love; happiness ; personal satisfaction, and achievement?

--

i have no problem with you saying, 'im sorry James there's not enough evidence'.

my problem is the following.

you've communicated to me the following: the reason why i can't believe is because of lack of evidence.

so now what i wanna hear from you is.. this overwhelming evidence that the purpose of live is to live for love; happiness ; personal satisfaction, and achievement

because if you can't produce that overwhelming evidence, then you know what i'm going to conclude about you right?

you've got an incredible double standard. .. an INCREDIBLE double standard.
you're guilty of intellectual hypocrisy. because what you're saying to me is this. 'James, the reason why i can't believe God exists is because of lack of evidence.. but THEN, what im living for right now has nowhere near the evidence, but im choosing to anyway.

i hope you realize the potential here for incredible intellectual hypocrisy.

when a person says to you, lets say i say to you. 'why do you believe what you do' and you give me evidence.. then i say 'well it's not enough'.. i think you have every right to look me in the face and say 'okay fine, then as a fellow searcher
after truth, .. what are you living for, and whats all this abundance of evidence that convinces you that whatever it is you're living for is true.

right?

it's just being fair

 

[SeCKSiiMiNh]

i dont understand

 

[fliick]

Lol existence of a god...

I think maybe we're debating about the wrong ones. The god most of us subconsciously pray to is called fuck.
Think about it. Holy fuck. Thank fuck for that. Fuck (smite) this.
He is so almighty to have slipped his name in subliminally without any of us noticing.

 

[charliesbig]

God exists miracles have hapenned how much proof do you want. the only reason you dont believe is because you dont accept to. allow the holy spirit to enter your heart and you will believe.

 

[ClockworkSoldier]

God exists miracles have hapenned how much proof do you want. the only reason you dont believe is because you dont accept to. allow the holy spirit to enter your heart and you will believe.

Only reason we don't believe is because we're so analytical, logical and stubborn and need solid evidence that he exists.

We don't just hear something that sounds convenient and go along with it.

 

[SeCKSiiMiNh]

God exists miracles have hapenned how much proof do you want. the only reason you dont believe is because you dont accept to. allow the holy spirit to enter your heart and you will believe.

Nonsense. Provide us with hard evidence of such miracles! Then prove to us that behind each of these alleged miracles lies the hand of "god"!

 

[sam04u]

Only reason we don't believe is because we're so analytical, logical and stubborn and need solid evidence that he exists.

We don't just hear something that sounds convenient and go along with it.

Kinda like analysis, logic and stubborness? You didn't just hear it, thought it sounded convenient and went along with it? I think we all do that, all the time. You didn't reason your way into clothing, sustenance, entertainment, etc. In fact I would wager that you have of yourself created nothing. Everything you have ever utilised was something that was convenient and you just went along with it, else you wouldn't have made such a pompous and pitiful argument as that.

You're not as smart as you think you are boy.

 

[theism]

Nonsense. Provide us with hard evidence of such miracles! Then prove to us that behind each of these alleged miracles lies the hand of "god"!

well they do exist actually.
the media don't report them obviously.

as do demonic spirits etc.

go to a developing country.
they're rampant.. it is unreal

actually i just thought of a few.

people who've came back from the dead after being pronounced dead in a hospital.

 

[sam04u]

Nonsense. Provide us with hard evidence of such miracles! Then prove to us that behind each of these alleged miracles lies the hand of "god"!

I love the utter arrogance conveyed by some of the posters in this thread, whether they be theists or atheists. You fuckers do not know everything.

It all comes down to a question that has been asked before your daddy stuck his cock in your mummy and made you.

What is the purpose of life? There are many different answers to this question a prominent one as of late is this; the purpose of life is life. The argument of abiogenesis, whereby a collection of different materials form together to create ever more complex chains of these materials ie;(polymers) which are the buildings blocks to RNA/DNA, etc. It's a retarded answer, and is self-defeating when you take into account how it does not fit with natural selection.

I would argue that life in and of itself is a "miracle", and that it has a special quality that one with the ability to reason out of a self-enclosing box, based on indefinable paramaters should be able to see. I can't link it specifically to God, but if not then what?

That's not even taking into account cosmology, that which is infinitely harder to describe by it's very nature.

 

[sweet_16]

Thank you very much for your question.

One important point we need to understand in the first place is that the existence of God cannot be proved in the same way you prove the existence of a physical object. This is simply because God is not a physical object. Any physical object is subject to your five senses. In simple terms, you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste a physical object. This is not possible in the case of God, as He (swt) is a Transcendental Being [existing on a level beyond our sensual perception].

There are people who argue that the only form of knowledge available to humans is experiential knowledge or experimental knowledge, gained primarily by the use of outer senses. This led to the belief that human beings are constituted in such a way that the knowledge of reality is always unavailable to them; and so it resulted in a renewal of attention to the everyday world of appearances. The knowledge of here and now became the only object of human knowledge and concern. Thus from this point of view, the project of seeking knowledge of reality behind appearances must be abandoned, because it is beyond the scope of human understanding.

Now think: Can’t there be a way of “being” [existing], that is not susceptible of being perceived by the limited capabilities of humans through their defective senses?

I hope that the implications of the two expressions I used above [‘limited capabilities’ and ‘defective senses’] are evident to any thinking person. The claim that something does not exist, because you haven’t seen or heard it, etc. is untenable. When we consider the limitations of our sensual perception and of our reasoning powers, it is not necessary that we understand everything. We can speak meaningfully about everything simply on the basis of our perception. So to speak of “proof” with regard to a Transcendental Being becomes irrelevant.

What we can do is to point out facts which lead to a constant and inescapable awareness of the presence of God. It is clear that logically we cannot rule out the possibility of more things existing than can be perceived by our senses or can be arrived at by our reasoning. As for Man, there are two dimensions to his existence: One of matter and the other of spirit.

Reduced merely to the level of material existence, Man becomes a machine, or a mere animal at best. But think of a machine that rebels against being a machine; or of an animal that refuses to be an animal. That is what man is! What is it that makes him rebellious, angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful? What is his dimension that gives him his imagination, his artistic genius, his creative urge? Why does he have nightmares and sweet dreams?

It is not matter that does it; evidently it is his spirit that makes him so different from animals. So to base our knowledge of the world and our philosophy of life simply on the material side of our existence to the complete exclusion of the spiritual dimension, is undoubtedly faulty. The strength of Islam as a philosophy and as a way of life is that it does not separate man’s material life from spiritual life, and that it seeks a balance between the two dimensions of human existence.

We should understand that human spirit is a reality incommensurable with material realities, and that it owes its existence only to God. Thus dear brother, if we ponder over the phenomena of the world around us and over the complexities of our own existence, we are bound to conclude that God is the Reality behind all appearances. The Holy Qur’an says in Surah 2, verse 164, the meaning of the following:

*{Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- [Here] indeed are signs for a people that are wise.}*

That is to say the external signs we see in the universe should necessarily lead a wise person to the Ultimate Reality behind it all. And that is how we arrive at the realization that Allah Almighty is the Moving Power behind all life and all existence.

And Allah knows best.

allah=god

 

[sweet_16]

Thank you very much for your question.

One important point we need to understand in the first place is that the existence of God cannot be proved in the same way you prove the existence of a physical object. This is simply because God is not a physical object. Any physical object is subject to your five senses. In simple terms, you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste a physical object. This is not possible in the case of God, as He (swt) is a Transcendental Being [existing on a level beyond our sensual perception].

There are people who argue that the only form of knowledge available to humans is experiential knowledge or experimental knowledge, gained primarily by the use of outer senses. This led to the belief that human beings are constituted in such a way that the knowledge of reality is always unavailable to them; and so it resulted in a renewal of attention to the everyday world of appearances. The knowledge of here and now became the only object of human knowledge and concern. Thus from this point of view, the project of seeking knowledge of reality behind appearances must be abandoned, because it is beyond the scope of human understanding.

Now think: Can’t there be a way of “being” [existing], that is not susceptible of being perceived by the limited capabilities of humans through their defective senses?

I hope that the implications of the two expressions I used above [‘limited capabilities’ and ‘defective senses’] are evident to any thinking person. The claim that something does not exist, because you haven’t seen or heard it, etc. is untenable. When we consider the limitations of our sensual perception and of our reasoning powers, it is not necessary that we understand everything. We can speak meaningfully about everything simply on the basis of our perception. So to speak of “proof” with regard to a Transcendental Being becomes irrelevant.

What we can do is to point out facts which lead to a constant and inescapable awareness of the presence of God. It is clear that logically we cannot rule out the possibility of more things existing than can be perceived by our senses or can be arrived at by our reasoning. As for Man, there are two dimensions to his existence: One of matter and the other of spirit.

Reduced merely to the level of material existence, Man becomes a machine, or a mere animal at best. But think of a machine that rebels against being a machine; or of an animal that refuses to be an animal. That is what man is! What is it that makes him rebellious, angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful? What is his dimension that gives him his imagination, his artistic genius, his creative urge? Why does he have nightmares and sweet dreams?

It is not matter that does it; evidently it is his spirit that makes him so different from animals. So to base our knowledge of the world and our philosophy of life simply on the material side of our existence to the complete exclusion of the spiritual dimension, is undoubtedly faulty. The strength of Islam as a philosophy and as a way of life is that it does not separate man’s material life from spiritual life, and that it seeks a balance between the two dimensions of human existence.

We should understand that human spirit is a reality incommensurable with material realities, and that it owes its existence only to God. Thus dear brother, if we ponder over the phenomena of the world around us and over the complexities of our own existence, we are bound to conclude that God is the Reality behind all appearances. The Holy Qur’an says in Surah 2, verse 164, the meaning of the following:

*{Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- [Here] indeed are signs for a people that are wise.}*

That is to say the external signs we see in the universe should necessarily lead a wise person to the Ultimate Reality behind it all. And that is how we arrive at the realization that Allah Almighty is the Moving Power behind all life and all existence.

And Allah knows best.
allah means god

 

[sweet_16]

Thank you very much for your question.

One important point we need to understand in the first place is that the existence of God cannot be proved in the same way you prove the existence of a physical object. This is simply because God is not a physical object. Any physical object is subject to your five senses. In simple terms, you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste a physical object. This is not possible in the case of God, as He (swt) is a Transcendental Being [existing on a level beyond our sensual perception].

There are people who argue that the only form of knowledge available to humans is experiential knowledge or experimental knowledge, gained primarily by the use of outer senses. This led to the belief that human beings are constituted in such a way that the knowledge of reality is always unavailable to them; and so it resulted in a renewal of attention to the everyday world of appearances. The knowledge of here and now became the only object of human knowledge and concern. Thus from this point of view, the project of seeking knowledge of reality behind appearances must be abandoned, because it is beyond the scope of human understanding.

Now think: Can’t there be a way of “being” [existing], that is not susceptible of being perceived by the limited capabilities of humans through their defective senses?

I hope that the implications of the two expressions I used above [‘limited capabilities’ and ‘defective senses’] are evident to any thinking person. The claim that something does not exist, because you haven’t seen or heard it, etc. is untenable. When we consider the limitations of our sensual perception and of our reasoning powers, it is not necessary that we understand everything. We can speak meaningfully about everything simply on the basis of our perception. So to speak of “proof” with regard to a Transcendental Being becomes irrelevant.

What we can do is to point out facts which lead to a constant and inescapable awareness of the presence of God. It is clear that logically we cannot rule out the possibility of more things existing than can be perceived by our senses or can be arrived at by our reasoning. As for Man, there are two dimensions to his existence: One of matter and the other of spirit.

Reduced merely to the level of material existence, Man becomes a machine, or a mere animal at best. But think of a machine that rebels against being a machine; or of an animal that refuses to be an animal. That is what man is! What is it that makes him rebellious, angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful? What is his dimension that gives him his imagination, his artistic genius, his creative urge? Why does he have nightmares and sweet dreams?

It is not matter that does it; evidently it is his spirit that makes him so different from animals. So to base our knowledge of the world and our philosophy of life simply on the material side of our existence to the complete exclusion of the spiritual dimension, is undoubtedly faulty. The strength of Islam as a philosophy and as a way of life is that it does not separate man’s material life from spiritual life, and that it seeks a balance between the two dimensions of human existence.

We should understand that human spirit is a reality incommensurable with material realities, and that it owes its existence only to God. Thus dear brother, if we ponder over the phenomena of the world around us and over the complexities of our own existence, we are bound to conclude that God is the Reality behind all appearances. The Holy Qur’an says in Surah 2, verse 164, the meaning of the following:

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]*{Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- [Here] indeed are signs for a people that are wise.}*[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]That is to say the external signs we see in the universe should necessarily lead a wise person to the Ultimate Reality behind it all. And that is how we arrive at the realization that Allah Almighty is the Moving Power behind all life and all existence.

And Allah knows best.
allah means god[/FONT]