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Poor people had better access to medical treatment on a free market (3 Viewers)

SylviaB

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People with no understanding of economics or American politics will often claim the problems with its healthcare system are the fault of the "free market". Obviously, anyone with half a brain realises that america has nothing remotely resembling a free market.

[FONT=Helvetica,Arial]In actuality, if it DID have a free makret (at least in terms of health care), then those of low income would actually be far better off than they are now, just as they were before government "fixed" the system. [/FONT]
If this is TL;DR then don't respond. [FONT=Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=+1]
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[FONT=Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=+1]How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica,Arial]Medical Insurance that Worked — Until Government "Fixed" It[/FONT]
by Roderick T. Long


[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Today, we are constantly being told, the United States faces a health care crisis. Medical costs are too high, and health insurance is out of reach of the poor. The cause of this crisis is never made very clear, but the cure is obvious to nearly everybody: government must step in to solve the problem.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Eighty years ago, Americans were also told that their nation was facing a health care crisis. Then, however, the complaint was that medical costs were too low, and that health insurance was too accessible. But in that era, too, government stepped forward to solve the problem. And boy, did it solve it![/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, one of the primary sources of health care and health insurance for the working poor in Britain, Australia, and the United States was the fraternal society. Fraternal societies (called "friendly societies" in Britain and Australia) were voluntary mutual-aid associations. Their descendants survive among us today in the form of the Shriners, Elks, Masons, and similar organizations, but these no longer play the central role in American life they formerly did. As recently as 1920, over one-quarter of all adult Americans were members of fraternal societies. (The figure was still higher in Britain and Australia.) Fraternal societies were particularly popular among blacks and immigrants. (Indeed, Teddy Roosevelt's famous attack on "hyphenated Americans" was motivated in part by hostility to the immigrants' fraternal societies; he and other Progressives sought to "Americanize" immigrants by making them dependent for support on the democratic state, rather than on their own independent ethnic communities.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]The principle behind the fraternal societies was simple. A group of working-class people would form an association (or join a local branch, or "lodge," of an existing association) and pay monthly fees into the association's treasury; individual members would then be able to draw on the pooled resources in time of need. The fraternal societies thus operated as a form of self-help insurance company.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Turn-of-the-century America offered a dizzying array of fraternal societies to choose from. Some catered to a particular ethnic or religious group; others did not. Many offered entertainment and social life to their members, or engaged in community service. Some "fraternal" societies were run entirely by and for women. The kinds of services from which members could choose often varied as well, though the most commonly offered were life insurance, disability insurance, and "lodge practice."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]"Lodge practice" refers to an arrangement, reminiscent of today's HMOs, whereby a particular society or lodge would contract with a doctor to provide medical care to its members. The doctor received a regular salary on a retainer basis, rather than charging per item; members would pay a yearly fee and then call on the doctor's services as needed. If medical services were found unsatisfactory, the doctor would be penalized, and the contract might not be renewed. Lodge members reportedly enjoyed the degree of customer control this system afforded them. And the tendency to overuse the physician's services was kept in check by the fraternal society's own "self-policing"; lodge members who wanted to avoid future increases in premiums were motivated to make sure that their fellow members were not abusing the system.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Most remarkable was the low cost at which these medical services were provided. At the turn of the century, the average cost of "lodge practice" to an individual member was between one and two dollars a year. A day's wage would pay for a year's worth of medical care. By contrast, the average cost of medical service on the regular market was between one and two dollars per visit. Yet licensed physicians, particularly those who did not come from "big name" medical schools, competed vigorously for lodge contracts, perhaps because of the security they offered; and this competition continued to keep costs low.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]The response of the medical establishment, both in America and in Britain, was one of outrage; the institution of lodge practice was denounced in harsh language and apocalyptic tones. Such low fees, many doctors charged, were bankrupting the medical profession. Moreover, many saw it as a blow to the dignity of the profession that trained physicians should be eagerly bidding for the chance to serve as the hirelings of lower-class tradesmen. It was particularly detestable that such uneducated and socially inferior people should be permitted to set fees for the physicians' services, or to sit in judgment on professionals to determine whether their services had been satisfactory. The government, they demanded, must do something.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]And so it did. In Britain, the state put an end to the "evil" of lodge practice by bringing health care under political control. Physicians' fees would now be determined by panels of trained professionals (i.e., the physicians themselves) rather than by ignorant patients. State-financed medical care edged out lodge practice; those who were being forced to pay taxes for "free" health care whether they wanted it or not had little incentive to pay extra for health care through the fraternal societies, rather than using the government care they had already paid for.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]In America, it took longer for the nation's health care system to be socialized, so the medical establishment had to achieve its ends more indirectly; but the essential result was the same. Medical societies like the AMA imposed sanctions on doctors who dared to sign lodge practice contracts. This might have been less effective if such medical societies had not had access to government power; but in fact, thanks to governmental grants of privilege, they controlled the medical licensure procedure, thus ensuring that those in their disfavor would be denied the right to practice medicine.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Such licensure laws also offered the medical establishment a less overt way of combating lodge practice. It was during this period that the AMA made the requirements for medical licensure far more strict than they had previously been. Their reason, they claimed, was to raise the quality of medical care. But the result was that the number of physicians fell, competition dwindled, and medical fees rose; the vast pool of physicians bidding for lodge practice contracts had been abolished. As with any market good, artifical restrictions on supply created higher prices — a particular hardship for the working-class members of fraternal societies.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]The final death blow to lodge practice was struck by the fraternal societies themselves. The National Fraternal Congress — attempting, like the AMA, to reap the benefits of cartelization — lobbied for laws decreeing a legal minimum on the rates fraternal societies could charge. Unfortunately for the lobbyists, the lobbying effort was successful; the unintended consequence was that the minimum rates laws made the services of fraternal societies no longer competitive. Thus the National Fraternal Congress' lobbying efforts, rather than creating a formidable mutual-aid cartel, simply destroyed the fraternal societies' market niche — and with it the opportunity for low-cost health care for the working poor.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Why do we have a crisis in health care costs today? Because government "solved" the last one. [/FONT]
 

Lentern

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Roderick Long lol, next time quote David Irving on something.
 

moll.

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Hey, I'm part of a friendly society. I get half price pharmacuticals, prescription or otherwise. And it didn't even cost me anything to join because the society is so flush with cash it doesn't need it, thanks largely to a dwindling membership caused by a ban on any new membership other than that which is hereditary.
What I don't get Sylvester is how this is relevant to Obama's legislation and your vehement opposition to it. Yeah, ok, so they fucked up 80 years ago. A single historical incidence is not adequate on it's own to draw conclusions and predictions.
 

moll.

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Also, I'd like to pick fault with your first sentence of commentary; yes, America doesn't have a real free-market, but you're showing a lot of your own ignorance on economics by assuming that if it did then the problem would be solved.

Any perfectly competitive market, with no barriers to entry or exit for consumers or suppliers (none of which the market for medical services has, but I will humour you by leaving these assumptions alone), will find an equilibrium price for the good or service by equating the most the suppliers are willing to supply for a certain price with the least quantity the consumers as a whole are willing to purchase at a given price. When these quantitiaties are the same at a certain price (let's say X), we have found the market equilibrium.

The problem is that consumers are not all the same. Each individual consumer has a reservation price - a price which is the most they are willing (or able) to pay for the good or service. For those consumers with a reservation price higher than X, great, they end up better off. However, for those with a reservation price lower than X, they miss out. They either can't or won't buy the service because it's too much for them. Now this is fine in a market for TVs or cars, but for something as vital to life as medical services, then the idea that these low-reservation price consumers should just miss out goes against every social value that we collectively have. Yes, intervention in the medical market by government will most likely result in a dead-weight loss and subsequent reduction in economic profit for the players, but in the case of vital goods and services such as medicine, any economic profit goals should be subsidiary to the aim of social profits.

Please note: I am not saying that all government intervention is good and that it always results in social profits, especially the more traditional, direct interventions.
 

PH011

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healthcare problem is not the fault of the "free market" at all, it is the fault of the "market" because this industry is not and will never be "free".
 

SylviaB

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What I don't get Sylvester is how this is relevant to Obama's legislation and your vehement opposition to it. Yeah, ok, so they fucked up 80 years ago. A single historical incidence is not adequate on it's own to draw conclusions and predictions.
it's relevant because the problem is being blamed on the free market, and as a result people think they (america) should be moving further away from the market and further toward government run health care. And the sad thing is, the more the state intervenes, the more unaffordable market insurance costs and so its a positive feedback mechanism because the balme inevitably (though wrongly) falls on the market.
Government intervention makes people think we need more government intervention.

People love to say "oh well on a free market the poor wouldn't be able to get medical treatment because of no government" etc etc, and I'm saying that on a free makret they were actually better off, and hence we should be trying to go back to america.


Any perfectly competitive market, with no barriers to entry or exit for consumers or suppliers (none of which the market for medical services has, but I will humour you by leaving these assumptions alone),
Assuming you're claiming the medical industry has no barriers to entry:

Are you kidding me?

-Health insurance cannot be sold across state lines. If you live in new york, you can only buy insurance from a new york insurance company, regardless of whether there is a better policy available in Pennsylvania.
This results in drastically less competion. In some states, companies have 80% market share because they only have to compete with a small number of companies (compared to hundreds nation wide on a free makret), and it is simply too hard for new companies to try and compete with the established company because of other barriers to entry.

-the american medical association has lobbied the government to pass legislation that artificially restricts the supply of doctors. This is said to be in order to "ensure quality", but this is obvious bs and its really just so that the doctors who pay into the association can make more money from less competition.

-Although not quite a "barrier" per se, but another departure from the free market is the existing public health programs which drive up the cost of health care.


[youtube]7nEmvrln21g&start=140[/youtube]


there are plenty of otehrs, and this is of course on top of all the other barriers to entry that apply to any business in the american mixed economy

The problem is that consumers are not all the same...
...which is why there are a myriad of different policies available. On a free market there would be more insurance companies, and as so there is a greatly increased likelihood that there will be one that suits your needs/budget, or will be flexible enough to fit them in order to secure your business.

They either can't or won't buy the service because it's too much for them. Now this is fine in a market for TVs or cars, but for something as vital to life as medical services, then the idea that these low-reservation price consumers should just miss out goes against every social value that we collectively have.
yeah, so this is nonsense. The companies aren't just going to turn their back on a huge chunk of the market because they don't as much money as other people.
health care would be incredibly cheap on a free market, and so it will be inherently be more affordable for everyone, but also naturally, there will be different levels of coverage to suit ones budget. A rich person will have all the nuts and bolts with yearly MRI scans and the works, whereas a poorer person will have coverage more for the big things, like surgery and other things that would be severely financially devastating to them. I mean sure, this may not fit in with your romantic egalitarian ideals, but some people having great coverage and some people have just okay coverage is better than everyone having okay coverage.

Yes, intervention in the medical market by government will most likely result in a dead-weight loss and subsequent reduction in economic profit for the players, but in the case of vital goods and services such as medicine, any economic profit goals should be subsidiary to the aim of social profits.
UGH

my OP shows why the poor were better off without government controls.
Friendly societies aside, the poor would be better off anyway on a free market because healthcare would be much cheaper and would be naturally provided more effectively and efficently than by the government (because its cheaper for the insurance company to stop you from getting sick than it is to cure you from sickness).
You're claiming that healthcare is too important to be left to profit, I'm saying its too important not to be left to profit.
i mean, don't you find it a little funny?
The market leads to a increase in quality and derease in price in most things, and yet when it comes to health care, apparently the opposite is true.
the obvious reason is government intervention makes things worse.

Please note: I am not saying that all government intervention is good and that it always results in social profits, especially the more traditional, direct interventions.
perhaps the biggest delusion going around is that the state is good for the poor.
Sure, they have developed a government dependant class, but given time to adjust, a free makret would be better for the poor.
I'm talking purely utilitarian here, nothing to do with tax being theft etc.
 
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FreeWorld

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This fifteen year old kid knows more than anyone by the looks of it.
 
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dont countries like norway and whatever, with excellent healthcare, have something almost entirely opposite to a free market healthcare system?
 

SylviaB

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dont countries like norway and whatever, with excellent healthcare, have something almost entirely opposite to a free market healthcare system?

"excellent healthcare"?

The two main ways of measuring how good a healthcare system is: Quality and coverage.

The american system is better in terms of quality than most anyone else. They have greater survivability of most potentially fatal illnesses than most places. I mean, a week after giving a big speech on the virtues on a public health system and congratulating obama taking a step towards making America's system more like Canada's, the Canadian prime minister flew to america to have privately performed surgery : /

And yeah, Americans have a lower life expectancy than countries like Norway, but this is purely because they are more likely to die from things like car accidents etc, and when you take this into account america actually has a comparatively high life expectancy.

Secondly, coverage. there's ESSENTIALLY three types of health system. Free market, mixed, or public. Free makret is better in all regards; however, in terms of coverage, a public health system will get you better than a mixed system, which is what america has.

In many ways (not all), public health systems are much better than the mixed system of america. However, a legitimately free market would be even better
 
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The american system is better in terms of quality than most anyone else.
citation needed.

They have greater survivability of most potentially fatal illnesses than most places.
citation needed. note: ignore afghanistan et al.

And yeah, Americans have a lower life expectancy than countries like Norway, but this is purely because they are more likely to die from things like car accidents etc, and when you take this into account america actually has a comparatively high life expectancy.
citation needed.

don't really care enough about this issue, but it would be nice to see you providing evidence for your sweeping claims for once.
 

ibbi00

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I'm sorry but Australian healthcare pwns America's one.
 

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