IDF Flotilla Incident Official Thread (4 Viewers)

[Richard Gilmore]

that part of the post wasn't in response to you mate, hence the re: chechnya.

 

[JonathanM]

What in God's name are you even on about? The point was clear in that people ought to care more about those issues - on an equivalent scale by which they evaluate their outrage against Israel. This does nothing to vindicate Israel and it is utterly beyond me as to why you keep bring up these instances of human atrocities elsewhere to somehow, in some fucked up way, defend Israel. Don't deny it because that is exactly what you were doing. You originally expressed your outrage over how it is unfair that Israel is having all this attention pushed against it. AGAINST it - piss off dickwad. The only thing that's unfair is that people don't care more about other, larger atrocities. The outrage that is being directed towards Israel is completely reasonable. They killed nine bloody aid workers for fuck's sake.

There is an internationally recognised method of telling whether legitimate criticism of Israel has crossed over into anti-Semitic rhetoric, using the platform of anti-Zionism as a cloak for traditional anti-Semitism. It's called the 3 D's - Delegitimisation, Demonisation and finally, what we're dealing with here, Double Standards.

First of all, I've already covered how they were not aid workers - if you're going to ignore that and also ignore the mountains of evidence including clear video footage, then that's your own prerogative. Now you've got me wrong, I'm not trying to refocus anything - I'm happy to have a proper debate with you on Israel if you hold the same standards which you criticise Israel with for other countries. Israel is always condemned harshly for self-defense measures and social problems that are seen as acceptable or inevitable in other nations.

Do you mean to tell me that the media coverage Israel has received has not been indiscriminate and disproportionate? Front page of most if not all big newspapers around the world for days? Even with all the death and suffering in other parts of the world? Has the world completely forgotten about the African continent, does it even exist anymore?

I have nothing to refocus here. You pitter patter around the legalities of the operation, well it's legal by Israeli, US, UK and even Palestinian Authority maritime law. It's also been undeniably proven that it was the mercanary "activists" who attacked first. We can argue all day about morals but the reality is that if the Mavi Marmara had acted non-violently like all it's genuine aid ship counterparts, there would have been no deaths, no headlines and all the supplies would have been shipped to Gaza through Ashdod (as they were anywhere). But this is not what the boats wanted, what they wanted was not the welfare of the Palestinians, but an Israel-bashing media storm, and because everyone loves a scape-goat and everyone loves a Jew bashing session, that's what we've got.

http://www.flotillafacts.com/

No, they don't. You're a joke, and you're a dipshit IDF bastard. I mean, Christ, how can you even make that point with a straight face? You've cited one questionable example against a mountain of evidence contrary to your point. Human rights in the occupied territories are fucking horrendous.

Do you want to know why people are outraged at Israel and Zionist bastards like yourself? It's because you're a group of unapologetic inhuman cunts. I'm just going to leave this here for you to read at your own lesiure. Hopefully some sense will come to you.

Human rights in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

apartheid - definition of apartheid by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

And hey, in addition to that, tell me of the democratic rights extended to Palestinians living in the occupied territories, hmm?

I want what you're on. First of all, I'm only referring to Israeli-Arabs being treated equally, because they are citizens of Israel, and I have provided other examples of how Israeli-Arabs, like those in Ein Rafa (not even to mention Abu Gosh) are treated equally. Those in the occupied territories, and I assume you are referring to Judea and Samaria, are Palestinian citizens, who do not wish to be citizens of Israel, under the autonomous government of the Palestinian authority. Now I'm the last person to argue that the PA is fully autonomous - indeed, the Israeli government is one of the only things holding it together.

Because it is a fucking corrupt peace of shit. The Palestinians have dug themselves a hole and given themselves only two choices - they are either under the incredibly corrupt and flawed Palestinian Authority (we're still waiting to find out where most of the $10 billion of American aid which went to the PA went, apart from the $100,000 a month which we know Arafat gave to his wife to go shopping in Paris) or the Islamic extremists Hamas. I mean first of all give us a fucking viable partner to peace, one which isn't corrupt or religiously fucked in the head, and then you can complain about how we haven't withdrawn back to the similar '67 borders (a move I, and most members of the IDF actually silently support).

...

Please don't respond to the freak who supports suicide bombing of public busses as an allowed means of resistance. I lost innocent friends during the Second Intifada, murdered by suicide bombers, and you shouldn't give a voice to mentally deranged people like that, only respond to Levi who can properly phrase an acceptable argument.

 

[ibbi00]

Do you mean to tell me that the media coverage Israel has received has not been indiscriminate and disproportionate? Front page of most if not all big newspapers around the world for days? Even with all the death and suffering in other parts of the world? Has the world completely forgotten about the African continent, does it even exist anymore?

You can't be serious. israel tried to sell nukes to South Africa for god's sake. Do you seriously want me to believe that isralies give a flying fuck about Africa?

I have nothing to refocus here. You pitter patter around the legalities of the operation, well it's legal by Israeli, US, UK and even Palestinian Authority maritime law.

Of course it's gonna be legal in their eyes you dipshit. They're israeli's pawns in a chess game after all.

because everyone loves a scape-goat and everyone loves a Jew bashing session, that's what we've got.

It has nothing to do with religion. Even Jews oppose the existence of israel.

Please don't respond to the freak who supports suicide bombing of public busses as an allowed means of resistance. I lost innocent friends during the Second Intifada.

Hardly considered innocent when they're illegally occupying a nation's land.
"One man's terrorist as another man's freedom fighter."

If the attitude you hold is a prevalent one in israel then I indeed have zero sympathy for you scum bags.

 

[justanotherposter]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

I'm 100% certain the fact that they were in International Waters isn't in dispute, dude.


I'm sick of trolling, this is too serious a topic to dismiss with rhetoric.

Israel is getting completely out of hand, in an international sense and now that the Obama administration is in power in the whitehouse, the extreme rabbinic right is trying to see how far they can push the international community whilst still having US support.

Cast Lead was a disgrace as well, as is the blockade. Israel has a reasonable right to search and seize weapons going into gaza and the west bank, but also has a reasonable responsibility to not kill gazans and Palestinians willy nilly. Israel's constant overreaction to everything that seems even slightly pro Palestinian and their insane reaction to criticism, labelling it as Anti-Semitic is beyond ridiculous.

They are acting in the manner of a rogue state, and were they not our allies our politicians would be up in arms about this disgrace. Though this was a staged photo-op most likely by Palestinian sympathisers, Israel has given Hamas' claims far more substance when they've proven they will attack a convoy of what appears to be mostly humanitarian aid workers and the like.

Just like Cast Lead was a chance for the rabbinic right to seize popular power before the end of GWB's reign and the Knesset elections, this is another gratuitous use of unacceptable force motivated entirely by a self-satisfactory insane zionism that seems to be infecting Israel's parliament and public sentiment each and every day.

Whilst I'd err on the side of caution in promoting the views put forward by that particularly right-wing member of the Knesset that said the British were dogs, saying that that was probably a sound bite used to cast aspersions against Israelis as a whole the primary issue faced by both sides is the insane religious radicalisation.

The Rabbinic right are engaged in an insane form of Zionism that sees all of the land from the Nile to the Euphrates as theirs, and wants to conform with biblical prophecy. Fortunately these are powerful but still minority elements within Israel, particularly held in Ultra-Orthodox circles. However this minority has still had a pernicious impact on Israel's overall response to the Gazan situation and the situation of Palestine, showing little to no care for the Gazans and Palestinians, in the pursuit of a no-tolerance policy of terrorism.

The other side is equally wrong, though pushed into that situation through what they see as necessity as no other alternative has worked. The Palestinians elected Hamas after a brutal period of infighting (and yes Hamas was created by the Israelis to fight Fatah and stop stable government competing with Israel) and a brutal series of attacks from Israel. Hamas' charter does not recognise the state of Israel and thus peace talks have broken down on both sides. The peace that may have been achieved in the late nineties is now a fairy tale because of the state of both parties.

Israel has been given carte blanche to do basically whatever they want through the whims of the American religious right and the American neocons. There is also a degree of western sympathy for the Israelis, they have every justification to have a fortress mentality due to being constantly under attack, but that mentality has turned into a severe malignancy infecting their overall policies and has lead to them performing acts that no society which dared to call itself a 'western democracy' would consider acceptable.

The two parties in this debate are fairly straightfoward, you have the insane ultra-zionists to whom Israel can do no wrong, and the somewhat crazed conspiracy theorists or supremely pro-palestinian individuals who think that Israel has no right to exist and there is somewhat of a global control on how people see Israel. Sure Israel does engage in counter-intelligence operations and attempts to spin what is going on continuously, but the same can be said for the Palestinians. This was a PR stunt by Hamas and they would almost certainly be delighted that it was attacked by Israel because it allows them to push forward their point that Israel is acting as a rogue nation outside of the limitations of International Law.

The final point is that International Law is completely fucking arbitrary and really doesn't come into this. Countries are impossible to bind to international law, particularly countries such as the US and Israel, and we should not recognise any form of international court because it would be highly affected by political posturing and movement by the big UN Security Council powers. The most effective way to peace in the region is a minimisation of the radical sentiment, put forward by the youth on both sides. Now this is particularly difficult in the case of young individuals who are pro Palestinian because they are absolutely horrified at what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank every single day.

It is incredibly difficult to separate yourself from the chaos emotionally and start making moderate points. If your family or people you know or even people you identify with are attacked indiscriminately because of where they choose to live, it makes sense to want revenge and to fight back, but it's obvious that the fight is one sided, if you attack Israel with force they are going to destroy you with superior weapons and technology. It's just how this works, they have the funding and backing of the world's biggest superpowers, and even though Hamas is working with Hezbollah and the Iranians, they will not be able to compete in any way through force be it using different tactics or weapons. Their only real chance of landing any damage on Israel is through a nuclear arsenal, and if their chosen destination is martyrdom, well they'll certainly get it in response to a nuclear attack on Israeli soil. Israel's nuclear arsenal is the world's worst kept secret, and they certainly will not hesitate to use it to destroy most of the middle east in retaliation to an attack on their soil, fuck the consequences. If they're acting this insane in response to a few rockets (albeit ones aimed at civilians), their response to a nuclear assault will be so utterly unimaginable it is something neither side should ponder for too long.

Though it is obvious that the growing PR campaign against Israeli aggression is starting to take hold, even nations such as Australia that would have been 'waiting for the facts' under a Howard government have taken action to expel diplomats because of the passport scandal and now the attacks on the flotilla. Western Nations are starting to stand up against Israel's continued attacks against civilians and are starting to want answers.

Now there are two ways that this can go, the first is towards a peace process, to those who are anti Israel, get the idea of the state of Israel being dissolved out of your mind, there is no power on this earth that can make this happen, and Israel is too integrated with Western Powers to have this ever be a possibility regardless of the armaments or power of Middle-Eastern states. The West is decades ahead of you in weapons and technology, and whilst you may technically have more manpower, that's just grist for the grinder. The most likely outcome is potentially a land resettlement deal with reparations paid to Israelis to sell their land to Palestinians through a third party funding source. The only people who could possibly oppose this would be insanely zionist jews, so again, given the current makeup of the knesset, this is still a long way off.

But for those spouting rhetoric of a dissolved israel and a fully free Palestine, again, the path that this can take is an all out war between Egypt, Israel, Syria, Lebanon and potentially Iran and even Afghani soldiers. (Potentially even Iraqis though, I honestly doubt it after the American occupation). The UK, Australia, France, Germany and all of NATO with the exception of the US will choose to not intervene. The US will support the Israelis with weapons and manpower if it turns into an all out war, and the possibility of a nuclear strike is quite substantial. The US wants to guard their 'example democracy' in the middle east, and would be almost certain to cut ties with nations without supplies of oil if they can negotiate deals with Russia to allow for an attack on these middle-eastern states.

Again were we to factor energy independence into the equation for the US (Which is unlikely given the power of oil cartels), the odds are even higher, meaning the US will back Israel unconditionally regardless of how the Russians and the Saudis react.

TL;DR - Israel is acting like a complete fuckwit because they've gone mental under the fortress mentality, so have the palestinians. Both have started electing crazy religious fundamentalists. Both sides are fucked. Only young kids who are moderate on both sides can stop the slide. Put ideas of Israel 'going away' out of your head, the west and Israel have superior weapons, firepower and tactics. Any nuclear attack on Israel will almost certainly end with a nuclear retaliation all throughout the middle east. if there is all out war the US will support Israel wholeheartedly and the US/Israeli coalition will win.

Any questions?

Thought I'd bump this post onto the latest page.

 

[JonathanM]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Thought I'd bump this post onto the latest page.

There are some good points in that, apart from the nonsense about the "rabbinic right."

Also, that post was made just over a day after the actual event, when the world was in the height of it's Israel bashing as the facts hadn't come out yet - Israel has beuracratic red tape like every other country and it crippled us badly in this event (i.e. the main video which proves the Israeli commandoes did not open fire first was not released as soon as it became available, instead there was a wait of almost 16 hours before it was released, due to beuracracy).

That guy really doesn't know what he's talking about with the "rabbinic right." It is true that the Ultra-Orthodox are vastly over-represented in the Knesset - mainly because their community is so organised, they literally have 100% voting rate, whereas secular Israelis, who greatly outnumber the Ultra-Orthodox have voting rates around 30%-40% mainly due to apathy. But the Ultra-Orthodox actually don't have any power or influence on the big stage where all the main decisions are made at all, so Rothbard's argument is completely incorrect.

The make up of the Knesset is simple, there are 120 seats, then there is the ruling coalition. Of the coalition there are 30 members who hold portfolios, who think they are important. They aren't. Of these 30 there are 15 in the security council, they think they're important. They aren't. And of those 15 there 7 members who make up the inner security council, they think they're important. They aren't really. In reality, there is only 1 member who has real power in the Israeli Government, and that is the Prime Minister.

When a big decision is made in the country, like the decisions to initiate the Cast Lead operation, it is only the inner security council which votes on it, and obviously there must be a majority vote, so at least 4 to 3. The last Israeli Government under Olmert had 4 left wing (non-religious) members of the 7 and 3 right wing (two of these non-religious, one Ultra-Orthodox) whereas the current Israeli Government under Netanyahu has 3 left wing (non-religious) members and 4 right wing (three non-religious, 2 likud, 1 Yisrael Beiteinu and one Ultra-Orthodox, United Torah Judiasm).

The Cast Lead operation had a 7-0 majority, so the Ultra-Orthodox clearly had no influence in this whatsoever. You know what the flotilla vote had? 0-0. Because it wasn't even voted on, the whole operation was executed by the military without consultation with the Government (there's an uproar in the Government about this, not even Barak the Defence Minister was consulted, so how the fuck did the rabbinic right get in on this?)

Sounds like Elders of Zions nonsense to me.

 

[TacoTerrorist]

Please don't respond to the freak who supports suicide bombing of public busses as an allowed means of resistance. I lost innocent friends during the Second Intifada, murdered by suicide bombers, and you shouldn't give a voice to mentally deranged people like that, only respond to Levi who can properly phrase an acceptable argument.

Aww what a touching sob story. The fact remains that while you're eager for everybody to comfort you over your losses, you support the State and military that does the same (except far worse, and on a larger scale) horrendous things to men, women and children who live on the other side of a line on a map.

As for an 'acceptable' argument, you don't believe commentary on Israel's horrible war crimes (and they are war crimes) to be poignant? I'm sure talking and lamenting about the small amount of Israeli civilians killed is 'acceptable' to you.
Check out this link, List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are a few gems for your consideration:

- Child and teenager killed in helicopter gunship attack

- Numerous teenagers shot

- Child shot during demonstration

- Bystander shot

- Teenager shot on his way to school

- Man shot while harvesting olives

- Child bystander shot

- Woman shot in her home

- Baby killed by mortar fire

- IDF tank fire killed a boy aged 11, and injured two other boys, ages 10 and 12, while they played soccer.

- Eldery man shot inside his neighbor's home

- Teenager shot escorting a bereaved mother to the hospital

- Teenager shot, followed by the nurse who came to his aid

- Teenager shot fleeing tank shelling on his home, mother killed in shelling

- Diabetic man shot while trying to get medicine from hospital

And the fucking list goes on. How the hell can you sit there and defend this? What kind of a person are you?

 

[Rothbard]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

My rabbinc right stuff was just re-wording of Hitchens articles around the time of Cast Lead

 

[Rothbard]

And seriously Protocols of the Elders of Zion bullshit?

Go royally fuck yourself. I gave more weight to Hitchens claims, and pointed out that both sides have issues. I didn't claim that there was a grandiose conspiracy theory run by the Jews and promote a worldwide elimination of the Jews.


I've got Jewish heritage but jesus fuck you are absolutely psychotic if you associate every allegation of Ultra-Orthodox motivations to expand to the state of greater Israel with being similar to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Go fuck yourself.

 

[JonathanM]

And seriously Protocols of the Elders of Zion bullshit?

Go royally fuck yourself. I gave more weight to Hitchens claims, and pointed out that both sides have issues. I didn't claim that there was a grandiose conspiracy theory run by the Jews and promote a worldwide elimination of the Jews.


I've got Jewish heritage but jesus fuck you are absolutely psychotic if you associate every allegation of Ultra-Orthodox motivations to expand to the state of greater Israel with being similar to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Go fuck yourself.

I was actually in favor of at least half your post - the Elders of Zion jibe was a joke, my fault for not wording it properly to be represented as such, should have put a smilie in xD.

 

[Rothbard]

I appreciate that man.

I know you were in favour of half of it, and I should update it now that new information has come out about the flotilla.

Elders of Zion thing is a sore point, as you would absolutely understand.

 

[speak]

You can't be serious. israel tried to sell nukes to South Africa for god's sake. Do you seriously want me to believe that isralies give a flying fuck about Africa?

Did you even read the documents? In none of them does it say that Israel offered SA nuclear weapons. Pik Botha, de Klerk and Waldo Stumpf have all denied that it happened too.
News - Politics: FW dismisses claim of Israeli nuclear offer
Pik Botha denies Israeli nuclear deal: News24: South Africa: News
S. African official doubts nuclear arms sale offer - Israel News, Ynetnews

Even in this interview with Sasha Pokalow Suransky, he only says that SA approached Israel about nuclear weapons. Conclusion? At most it gives more credence to the claim that Israel has nuclear weapons in the first place (they do and everyone knows this). Not that they tried to sell them to anyone.
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Israel-South Africa nuclear ties

 

[BBJ LOL]

Speak, you're a fucking shit troll mate.

 

[BBJ LOL]

THIS IS MODERN ISRAEL. NO DIFFERENT FROM NAZI GERMANY. IF YOUR VALUES AND MORALS ARE TO BE CONSISTENT, YOU PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS IN WW2.

 

[Garygaz]

this just in, spray paint on walls depicts morals/racial ethics of a whole nation, more news from bbj at 11

 

[speak]

fake graffiti done by arabs

 

[BBJ LOL]

this just in, spray paint on walls depicts morals/racial ethics of a whole nation, more news from bbj at 11

why u racist 4?

 

[ibbi00]

Did you even read the documents? In none of them does it say that Israel offered SA nuclear weapons. Pik Botha, de Klerk and Waldo Stumpf have all denied that it happened too.
News - Politics: FW dismisses claim of Israeli nuclear offer
Pik Botha denies Israeli nuclear deal: News24: South Africa: News
S. African official doubts nuclear arms sale offer - Israel News, Ynetnews

No shit they denied what happened, silly.

Even in this interview with Sasha Pokalow Suransky, he only says that SA approached Israel about nuclear weapons. Conclusion? At most it gives more credence to the claim that Israel has nuclear weapons in the first place (they do and everyone knows this). Not that they tried to sell them to anyone.
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Israel-South Africa nuclear ties

Spoken like a true employee of the Zionist 'state'.

 

[speak]

lol nice post

 

[cssftw]

this just in, spray paint on walls depicts morals/racial ethics of a whole nation, more news from bbj at 11

No, but it certainly provides a great deal of evidence of the perspective of a majority of the people of a nation.

 

[Garygaz]

No, but it certainly provides a great deal of evidence of the perspective of a majority of the people of a nation.

ima go spraypaint i hate niggers on a wall, then you can make some judgements about our country okay