Aganist abortion (6 Viewers)

[scarybunny]

Contraceptives fail. Why do people not seem to understand this?

 

[Elliot220]

Contraceptives fail. Why do people not seem to understand this?

Adoption gogo.

 

[scarybunny]

Because a 9 month pregnancy and giving birth ain't no thang?

 

[abbeyroad]

Just because those types of cases exist, does it change whether what is being killed human or not. This does not prove at all that abortion is right or wrong.
Trust me there are alot of cases where doctors, nurses who have witnessed abortions, mothers who have had abortions gone back and changed their opinions. As i have given quotes in my previous posts.



Okay there is a difference between terminating life support and terminating a pregnancy (or to murder a child-- or baby to make you happy, i'll clarify this later).
Life support is artificial life, turning off life support allows the natural course of life take its path. Keeping life support on gives the chance supported by the hope of the family to live.
On the other hand abortion is not a natural cause it blocks the natural course of life to take its path.

I forgot to add last night that how are you really sure that a baby in the mothers womb is unconscious, not self aware and do not have any memory?

Have you ever experienced a family or friend who has had a pregnancy? I remember experiencing my mom being pregnant to my siblings and a friend pregnant recently and she just gave birth a few months ago
It's a wonderful experience! and whilest experiencing and being with them during their experience i knew and felt that the baby was alive, conscious and aware. With my friend's recent pregnancy she could feel the baby moving in her womb in reaction do the sounds around her. Like when she's vacuuming she could feel the baby move. When i was young i loved feeling my brother kick in my mom's womb.
Now going back to abortions, have you ever seen an abortion take place? There is one video where a baby is being aborted in the mothers womb and you could see the needle coming in and as the needle goes in you can see the baby inching away from it, trying its best possible to move away from the needle. Another one is where the baby is being aborted and you can see it in the position of a scream.
With the above twoo how can you say they are unconcious and not self aware?

Now dealing with memory. How are you sure that a baby in the mothers womb do not have memory does not have any memory?
This reminds me of a time in primary school when me and my friends were having a conversation.
Friend: What's your most favourite day of your life?
Me: *thinks* that's hard idk, what's yours?
Friend: When I was born.
Me: Wait a minute you don't remember the day you were born
Friend: But that's still my favourite day cause i know it happened
I doubt most of us remember being born, or being taken for the first time out of the hospital to your home, or other memories as a baby like experiencing first teeth etc. Now we don't remember the days we were in the womb and we don't remember days as a baby outside of the womb.
My point is that you say that "as a baby in the mothers womb we didn't have memory" but how can you back this up? is it because we don't remember those days? because we don't remember our days as a baby outside of the womb, yet these are the days many of you claim that is the moment a foetus becomes human.

Now to further back up my argument on a babie's conciousness in the womb i'd like to show you some articles for parents in a baby magazine. Now this isn't a pro-life article this is just a regular article from a magazine teaching parents how to look after their babies. This is from an american magazine, but if you read further they talk about research done in Australia.

Asleep and Awake
From early on in your pregnancy, your baby is more like a newborn than you might think. He sleeps, moves around, listens to sounds, and has thoughts and memories. Here's how:
Just like newborns, fetuses spend most of their time sleeping. At 32 weeks, your baby sleeps 90 to 95 percent of the day. Some of these hours are spent in deep sleep, some in REM sleep, and some in an indeterminate state -- a result of his immature brain. During REM sleep, his eyes move back and forth just like an adult's eyes. Some scientists even believe that fetuses dream while they're sleeping! Just like babies after birth, they probably dream about what they know -- the sensations they feel in the womb.
Closer to birth, your baby sleeps 85 to 90 percent of the time, the same as a newborn.

On the Move
Around the ninth week of pregnancy, your baby starts making her first movements. Those movements are probably visible with an ultrasound, even though they can't be felt for several more weeks. By 13 weeks, your baby may be able to put a thumb in her mouth, although the sucking muscles aren't completely developed yet.
Although your baby's first muscle movements were involuntary, the first voluntary muscle movements occur around week 16. After this point, awake or asleep, your baby moves 50 times or more each hour, flexing and extending her body, moving her head, face, and limbs, and exploring her warm, wet home by touch. A baby may touch her face, touch one hand to the other hand, clasp her feet, touch her foot to her leg, or her hand to the umbilical cord. By week 37, your baby has developed enough coordination so that he or she can grasp with the fingers.
Along with these common movements, babies perform some odder activities, including licking the uterine wall and "walking" around the womb by pushing off with its feet.
Fetuses also react with motion to their mother's actions. For instance, ultrasounds have shown a fetus bouncing up and down when the mother laughs. Watching this on the screen, moms-to-be often laugh harder, and the fetus starts moving up and down even faster!
Second or third children may have more stretching room in the womb than first babies because a woman's uterus is bigger and the umbilical cord longer after her first pregnancy. These children usually get more motor experience in utero and tend to be more active infants.
By week 29, you should be feeling your baby move at least 10 times an hour.

Learning and Memory
Along with the ability to feel, see, and hear comes the capacity to learn and remember. For example, a fetus may be startled by a loud noise, but stops responding once the noise has been repeated several times.
Twins at 20 weeks' gestation can be seen developing certain gestures and habits that persist into their postnatal years. In one case, a brother and sister were seen playing cheek-to-cheek on either side of the dividing membrane. At one year of age, their favorite game was to take positions on opposite sides of a curtain, and begin to laugh and giggle as they touched each other and played through the curtain.
Studies have also shown a baby can feel and remember its mother's emotional state. An experiment in Australia revealed that unborn babies were participating in the emotional upset of their mothers who were watching a disturbing 20-minute segment of a movie. When the babies were reexposed to this film up to three months after birth, they still showed recognition of the earlier experience.
In the 1980s, psychology professor Anthony James DeCasper, PhD, and colleagues at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro performed a study with a feeding contraption that allows a baby to hear one set of sounds through headphones when it sucks faster, and to hear a different set of sounds when it sucks slower. This experiment revealed that within hours of birth, a baby already prefers its mother's voice to a stranger's, suggesting that it must have learned and remembered the voice from the womb. Newborns also preferred a story read to it repeatedly in the womb over a new one. And the same soft music that soothes them in utero soothes them again after birth.
Newborns can not only distinguish their mother's voice from a stranger's, but would rather hear Mom's voice, especially the way it sounds filtered through amniotic fluid rather than through air. They also prefer to hear Mom speaking in her native language than to hear her or someone else speaking in a foreign tongue.
Babies in the womb are probably reacting to the overall sound of voices and stories, not their actual words. But the conclusion is the same: the fetus can listen, learn, and remember at some level, and, as with most babies and children, he likes the comfort and reassurance of the familiar.

Sources: The Nemours Foundation; Association for Pre- & Perinatal Psychology and Health; Janet L. Hopson, "Fetal Psychology," Psychology Today, September-October 1998

taken from: Baby's Alertness in the Womb: Learning and Memory



Okay my definition for child; "A son or daughter; offspring" (The Australian Oxford Dictionary) and I agree to your definition of baby and foetus.
But according to The Australian Oxford Dictionary (1993)
Baby: A very young child
Foetus: Developed embryo in a mother's womb.

The reason why I say child and baby is because what is in the womb is the child/baby/son/daughter/offspring of the parents. To abort/murder their own child, their own son or daughter is completely wrong and i can not even find any right in it!​

we are sure because of ~science~ you dumb fuck, read my previous post on the formation of thalamocortical connections. fetuses < ~23 week do not and cannot be aware. how can you be capable of something when you don't even have the capacity for it? just shut the fuck up, reflexes =/= consciousness, people with irreversible brain damage resulting in the permanent loss of consciousness still retain certain reflexes so ???

what about when the birth of the fetus would result in the death of the mother you peabrain? is it still "wrong" to "murder" the fetus???

 

[abbeyroad]

I am.

even when the fetus is viable? ie it would otherwise live outside of the womb?

 

[Elliot220]

This is where your personal view comes in as to when life begins.

Of course a 9 month pregnancy and birth is a huge thing; those who believe that the unborn child is worthy human life would view the process as necessary.

While there are cases on contraception failing, there are also a lot of cases of stupid people just not taking the right precautions.

 

[abbeyroad]

This is where your personal view comes in as to what life is.

Of course a 9 month pregnancy and birth is a huge thing; those who believe that the unborn child is worthy human life, would view the process as necessary.

While there are cases on contraception failing, there are also a lot of cases of stupid people just not taking the right precautions.

ahahaha just fucking kill yourself you dumb fuck, which one are you, christian or catholic

 

[scarybunny]

Surely it's not the foetus's fault its the product of rape? If you think it's a worthy human being, then it must be so even when the mother has been raped.

 

[Elliot220]

ahahaha just fucking kill yourself you dumb fuck, which one are you, christian or catholic

Not really religious. I guess I'm Agnostic.

Surely it's not the foetus's fault its the product of rape? If you think it's a worthy human being, then it must be so even when the mother has been raped.

That's a good point.

But I suppose if you are taking both mother and child into consideration; forcing the mother to have the child as a product of rape would be more severe than say, a product of a drunken weekend at the Gold Coast.</SPAN>

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

even when the fetus is viable? ie it would otherwise live outside of the womb?

Well I'm not thrilled about it, but I don't think it should be a crime.

 

[Cabenson]

Just because those types of cases exist, does it change whether what is being killed human or not. This does not prove at all that abortion is right or wrong.
Trust me there are alot of cases where doctors, nurses who have witnessed abortions, mothers who have had abortions gone back and changed their opinions. As i have given quotes in my previous posts.

Why should we trust you? I don't know the veracity of this statement. It seems typical of emotionalising an argument. Give me a statistic. Quotes are meaningless as there will always be extremes and these quotes may not illustrate are variety of opinions of "doctors, nurses who have witnessed abortions, mothers who have had abortions gone back and changed their opinions".

Okay there is a difference between terminating life support and terminating a pregnancy (or to murder a child-- or baby to make you happy, i'll clarify this later).

You are still not seeing the distinction? How is it murder? And it is not a child nor a baby but a foetus. Using child and baby are not only incorrect but further emotionalising this argument.

Life support is artificial life, turning off life support allows the natural course of life take its path. Keeping life support on gives the chance supported by the hope of the family to live.
On the other hand abortion is not a natural cause it blocks the natural course of life to take its path.

I wrote something about this below.

And I'm not addressing the "science" part of your post because abbeyroad has done it well.

Okay my definition for child; "A son or daughter; offspring" (The Australian Oxford Dictionary) and I agree to your definition of baby and foetus.
But according to The Australian Oxford Dictionary (1993)
Baby: A very young child
Foetus: Developed embryo in a mother's womb.

The reason why I say child and baby is because what is in the womb is the child/baby/son/daughter/offspring of the parents. To abort/murder their own child, their own son or daughter is completely wrong and i can not even find any right in it!​

You cannot find any right in it personally, I acknowledge that. But do you understand where those of us who can find right in it are coming from?
You agree with my previous definition of foetus which is to reiterate: "a developing mammal or other viviparious vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth. In humans the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age, which is the 9th week after fertilisation."

A foetus is not a baby until it has been born. You keep saying it is wrong to murder children and babies but that not what we are discussing. We are discussing abortion, which relates to the foetus.

Umm who cares what is natural? It's not natural to use antibiotics, or chemotherapy. Should we ban these things too, because if we get sick we are "meant" to die?

Arguably everything is natural anyway. We are just a bunch of natural organisms that happen to arrange natural resources in a particular way.

Is a chimpanzee that shapes a stick and uses it to hunt termites "unnatural." At what point does sophisticated manipulation of natural resources become "unnatural?"

I agree with you. We are so far away from nature anyway that it is irrelevant bringing up "the natural course of life taking its path". We can extend this to say wearing clothing that has more function than form is "unnatural", as is wearing glasses or prosthetic limbs. To me it seems, ix3powerrangers, you're suggesting a "survival of the fittest" point but I don't see how that isn't contradictory to your views of thinking it is wrong to murder. Are you or are you not suggesting that a mass of cells has more value than a person with flawed health (cancer, malaria, HIV/AIDS even a cold!) who "should" "morally" "allow the natural course of life to take its path" even if this person has the option to improve their life through chemotherapy or antibiotics?


For the record I too am advocating the choice to abortion at any stage of the pregnancy.

 

[abbeyroad]

Well I'm not thrilled about it, but I don't think it should be a crime.

why? and what differentiates it from murder in this case?

 

[Cabenson]

Not really religious. I guess I'm Agnostic.

That's a good point.

But I suppose if you are taking both mother and child into consideration; forcing the mother to have the child as a product of rape would be more severe than say, a product of a drunken weekend at the Gold Coast.</SPAN>

I don't necessarily think you can generalise like that. Of course we first think that dealing with the product of rape is "worse" or "harder" than dealing with a product of a "drunken weekend at the Gold Coast" but there are so many individual circumstances such as wealth and especially inclination to look after and raise a child! You can't split who can or cannot have abortions. If you think forcing the mother to have to have any child she doesn't want (and it wouldn't be any fault of her own to not want it, let me add) (as scarybunny expressed, contraception fails) is showing a terrible disregard and disrespect for both the mother's life, the prospective child's life and those around them.

 

[scarybunny]

Not really religious. I guess I'm Agnostic.

That's a good point.

But I suppose if you are taking both mother and child into consideration; forcing the mother to have the child as a product of rape would be more severe than say, a product of a drunken weekend at the Gold Coast.</SPAN>

I think having an unwanted baby is fairly traumatic in itself, regardless of how that baby was conceived.

 

[abbeyroad]

I don't necessarily think you can generalise like that. Of course we first think that dealing with the product of rape is "worse" or "harder" than dealing with a product of a "drunken weekend at the Gold Coast" but there are so many individual circumstances such as wealth and especially inclination to look after and raise a child! You can't split who can or cannot have abortions. If you think forcing the mother to have to have any child she doesn't want (and it wouldn't be any fault of her own to not want it, let me add) (as scarybunny expressed, contraception fails) is showing a terrible disregard and disrespect for both the mother's life, the prospective child's life and those around them.

hai bby r u hawt post a pic sxc, what's ur msn?

 

[Cabenson]

hai bby r u hawt post a pic sxc, what's ur msn?

Objection! Relevance

 

[ix3powerrangers]

we are sure because of ~science~ you dumb fuck, read my previous post on the formation of thalamocortical connections. fetuses < ~23 week do not and cannot be aware. how can you be capable of something when you don't even have the capacity for it? just shut the fuck up, reflexes =/= consciousness, people with irreversible brain damage resulting in the permanent loss of consciousness still retain certain reflexes so ???

what about when the birth of the fetus would result in the death of the mother you peabrain? is it still "wrong" to "murder" the fetus???

Okay people with irreversible brain damage are still human right? would it be right to murder someone with irreversible brain damage?

Wouldn't you find it as heroism if the mother sacrifices her life for her child?
I'll give you one personal example. Towards the end of last year someone i knew became pregnant, though the doctors recommended that she had an abortion because having the baby would be life threataning and there is a high risk of death. She chose not to have the abortion, she gave birth to the baby and her and the baby is fine I'm grateful she didn't have the abortion because that would've been a bad mistake and I'm proud of the heroism she took on because of the love of her baby that wasn't even born.

No, it's not a child/baby. Same as it's not an adult. These are different stages of human development which the foetus in the womb has not reached yet.

You could argue that once it is able to live outside of the womb, in the late stages of pregnancy, it is a baby. But not before then. And I don't think people here are advocating late abortions anyway.


I find it very very silly that a tiny cluster of cells would have the same value as a human adult.

Of course this tiny cluster of cells have the same value as a human adult! Think about the beauty of how it came about to be. A sperm and an egg come together to form one new cell. Two cells join together to become one new cell. Can you find any other occasion in the body where this occurs that does not have to do with the creation of life? Now think about how quickly it multiplies and creates the features of a baby.
The Zygote, these cluster of cells, already have 46 chromosones. it's blue print. The way its going to turn out is already planned from hair colour, eye colour even the characteristics that come from the mother and the father. It has a DNA structure which makes it unique.

Also to back this up:
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The zygote "...is biologically alive. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] biological life: [/FONT][/FONT]

1. [FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]metabolism, [/FONT][/FONT]
2. [FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]growth,
3. reaction to stimuli, and
4. reproduction." [/FONT][/FONT]

Source: Carl Sagan, "Billions and Billions", Random House, New York NY (1997), Pages 163-179.

Unfortunately over 78% of abortions occur after 6 weeks, later I will post the stages of developement so you can see what this baby has in this six weeks.

Umm who cares what is natural? It's not natural to use antibiotics, or chemotherapy. Should we ban these things too, because if we get sick we are "meant" to die?

Arguably everything is natural anyway. We are just a bunch of natural organisms that happen to arrange natural resources in a particular way.

Is a chimpanzee that shapes a stick and uses it to hunt termites "unnatural." At what point does sophisticated manipulation of natural resources become "unnatural?"

What I'm trying to say that turning of life support is fine because it is allowing the course of nature to take over.
This is different from an abortion, because abortion is killing a life.
Turning of life support and abortion are two different things. Turning of life support is fine but an abortion is wrong because literally you are MURDERING a human life.

 

[abbeyroad]

Objection! Relevance

post a pic bby we should make some babbys and abort the embryos just to piss these imbeciles off.

 

[scarybunny]

Do you eat meat? Sit on wooden furniture? Just because something is biologically alive doesn't give it any inherent value.

 

[ix3powerrangers]

•At the moment of conception, a male sperm unites with a female ovum to fertilize it. The single celled organism thus formed, is called a zygote,

•A zygote is a wonderful repository of biological information of both the parents, and it may include such critical information like 50,000 genes that belong to both parents,

•Fertilization occurs in the Fallopian tube, and soon after this process, the tiny mass of cells starts migrating to the interior portion of the canal and implants itself on the uterine wall of mother’s womb,

•Within the next 24 to 48 hours, the tiny zygote starts multiplying at a furious rate and becomes a stage called Blastocyst, which is also called a placenta; a placental structure contains almost 150 cells in the shape of a tiny ball,

•This life form is also called embryo, and this stage will last from the first cell division stage, until eight week of the unborn baby development,

•Whereas, the stage of an unborn baby from eight week of development up, until the birth is called “fetus”.

Here are just a few stages or milestones of baby development in the womb:

•At 4 weeks from conception: Eyes, ears and respiratory stem begin to develop at a rapid pace,

•Thumb sucking practice will be first observed during the 7th week,

•At 8 weeks from conception: Your physician will start feeling the heartbeat of your baby, through the ultrasonic stethoscope,

•9 weeks from conception: Your baby can hold a tender object, by bending her finger around it,

•11 to 12 weeks from conception: Steady breathing will occur and this continues till the labor,

•11 weeks from conception: Your baby will learn to swallow the amniotic fluid

•13 and 15 weeks from conception: Baby will also develop the sense of taste by creating a functioning taste bud,

•At 16 to 20 weeks: Your baby becomes very sensitive to external noises and mother’s own soothing heartbeats,

•23 weeks from conception: Baby will develop a definite sleep pattern,

•Six months from conception: Oil and sweat glands will start forming, as a system to eject the waste from the body,

•7 months after conception: Baby will start moving tirelessly by stretching and kicking,

•9 months till the birth: the baby will put on a considerable amount of weight of almost half a pound per week. Its skin begins to start thickening, and it also starts the breathing practice, by consuming more than a pint of amniotic fluid.

Source: Baby Development in the Womb


So with the facts above when are abortions being commited?
22% of abortions occur before 6 weeks
18% on the 7th week
18% on the 8th week
and 42% after the 8th week

Over 78% happen after the 6th week.
It's eyes, ears and respiratory system has already been developed at this time. It can already suck its thumb!