Parametric equations question (1 Viewer)

nazfiz

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The normals to the parabola x^2=4ay at the point P(2at,at^2) and Q(2as,as^2) meet at R. Find the co-ordinates of R in terms of t and s. If st=-2, find the cartesian equation of the locus of R

I've been stuck on this for quite a while. Any help would be appreciated.
 

umm what

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First find the the gradient .... then change the sign and invert it to get gradient for normal... find the equation using y-y1-m(x-X1)
sub st=-2 in equation and find the locus :)
 

barbernator

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i will give you some steps for the answer, and then come back in a bit, and if you haven't got it by then i will post the answer/.

1. Find equations of both normals
2. Find intersection of normals by subtracting equations from each other
3. once you have subtracted equations, factorise both sides. Divide by something to get y on its own. this is your value for y.
4. Substitute y into any equation to find x. factorise appropriately. they will be the coordinates of R

1. use the relation st=-2 to eliminate some s and t's from (x,y)
2. rearrange the x variable, and substitute into the y variable to get the equation.

hope this helps. If you cant get it i will post solution a bit later :)
 

nazfiz

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i will give you some steps for the answer, and then come back in a bit, and if you haven't got it by then i will post the answer/.

1. Find equations of both normals
2. Find intersection of normals by subtracting equations from each other
3. once you have subtracted equations, factorise both sides. Divide by something to get y on its own. this is your value for y.
4. Substitute y into any equation to find x. factorise appropriately. they will be the coordinates of R

1. use the relation st=-2 to eliminate some s and t's from (x,y)
2. rearrange the x variable, and substitute into the y variable to get the equation.

hope this helps. If you cant get it i will post solution a bit later :)
When I find the equation of the normals. they both have s and t in them. I couldn't eliminate them. So i can't solve them simultaneously.

Am I supposed to use the second part of the question for this. Where st=-2?
 

Aesytic

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yeah, you have to use the second part where st=-2
try rearranging that expression or to get the t's in terms of s or vice versa, so you're left with only 1 parameter

edit: ^that's for the locus. for finding the intersection of the normal, it's fine to have both s and t, since the coordinates of R can be in terms of both parameters, but you'll have to eliminate both when finding the locus of R
 
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barbernator

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When I find the equation of the normals. they both have s and t in them. I couldn't eliminate them. So i can't solve them simultaneously.

Am I supposed to use the second part of the question for this. Where st=-2?
one normal will have s's in it, one normal will have t's in it. When you solve them simultaneously, your answers will have both s and t's in them. When you solve simultaneously, you are trying to find x and y both in terms of s and t. It is in the second step that you are finding a relationship betweem x,y and a by eliminating the parameters t and s. You can use the relationship st=-2 in this step. Basically wherever you see and st, just get rid of it. i will post in 10 mins if u cant get it :)
 

RishBonjour

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When I find the equation of the normals. they both have s and t in them. I couldn't eliminate them. So i can't solve them simultaneously.

Am I supposed to use the second part of the question for this. Where st=-2?
yes, you use st=-2 :)
that should work
 

nazfiz

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Well, For the co-ordinates of R I got [3a(t-s),3ast]. Does that seem right barbenator? For some reason the book doesn't have the answers for the co-ordinate part.
 
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barbernator

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<a href="http://www.codecogs.com/eqnedit.php?latex=x^2=4ay\\ y=\frac{x^2}{4a}\\ y'=\frac{x}{2a}\\ at~P,~y'=t\\ therefore~the~gradient~of~the~normal~is~m=\frac{-1}{t}\\ point~grad~formula\\ y-at^2=\frac{-1}{t}(x-2at)\\ y-at^2=\frac{-x}{t}@plus;2a\\ yt@plus;x=at^3@plus;2at~-(1)\\ similarly,~ys@plus;x=as^3@plus;2as~-(2)\\ (1)-(2)\\ yt-ys=at^3-as^3@plus;2at-2as\\ y(t-s)=a(t-s)(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a(t-s)\\ y=a(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a\\ sub~into~(1)\\ x=at^3@plus;sat-t(a(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a)\\ =at^2s-ats^2\\ R(ats(t-s),a(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a)\\ \\ we~know~ts=-2\\ therefore~R(-2a(t-s),a(t^2@plus;s^2-2)@plus;2a)\\ taking~x=-2a(t-s)\\ \frac{x}{-2a}=(t-s)\\ squaring~both~sides~\frac{x^2}{4a}=t^2@plus;4@plus;s^2\\ substituting~into~y\\ y=a(\frac{x^2}{4a}-6)@plus;2a\\ =\frac{x^2}{4}-4a\\ therefore~the~locus~of~R~is\\ x^2=4(y@plus;4a)" target="_blank"><img src="http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?x^2=4ay\\ y=\frac{x^2}{4a}\\ y'=\frac{x}{2a}\\ at~P,~y'=t\\ therefore~the~gradient~of~the~normal~is~m=\frac{-1}{t}\\ point~grad~formula\\ y-at^2=\frac{-1}{t}(x-2at)\\ y-at^2=\frac{-x}{t}+2a\\ yt+x=at^3+2at~-(1)\\ similarly,~ys+x=as^3+2as~-(2)\\ (1)-(2)\\ yt-ys=at^3-as^3+2at-2as\\ y(t-s)=a(t-s)(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a(t-s)\\ y=a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a\\ sub~into~(1)\\ x=at^3+sat-t(a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ =at^2s-ats^2\\ R(ats(t-s),a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ \\ we~know~ts=-2\\ therefore~R(-2a(t-s),a(t^2+s^2-2)+2a)\\ taking~x=-2a(t-s)\\ \frac{x}{-2a}=(t-s)\\ squaring~both~sides~\frac{x^2}{4a}=t^2+4+s^2\\ substituting~into~y\\ y=a(\frac{x^2}{4a}-6)+2a\\ =\frac{x^2}{4}-4a\\ therefore~the~locus~of~R~is\\ x^2=4(y+4a)" title="x^2=4ay\\ y=\frac{x^2}{4a}\\ y'=\frac{x}{2a}\\ at~P,~y'=t\\ therefore~the~gradient~of~the~normal~is~m=\frac{-1}{t}\\ point~grad~formula\\ y-at^2=\frac{-1}{t}(x-2at)\\ y-at^2=\frac{-x}{t}+2a\\ yt+x=at^3+2at~-(1)\\ similarly,~ys+x=as^3+2as~-(2)\\ (1)-(2)\\ yt-ys=at^3-as^3+2at-2as\\ y(t-s)=a(t-s)(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a(t-s)\\ y=a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a\\ sub~into~(1)\\ x=at^3+sat-t(a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ =at^2s-ats^2\\ R(ats(t-s),a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ \\ we~know~ts=-2\\ therefore~R(-2a(t-s),a(t^2+s^2-2)+2a)\\ taking~x=-2a(t-s)\\ \frac{x}{-2a}=(t-s)\\ squaring~both~sides~\frac{x^2}{4a}=t^2+4+s^2\\ substituting~into~y\\ y=a(\frac{x^2}{4a}-6)+2a\\ =\frac{x^2}{4}-4a\\ therefore~the~locus~of~R~is\\ x^2=4(y+4a)" /></a>

its a bit cluttered lol, hope that clears things up, and i hope its the right answer! :)
 
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nazfiz

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<a href="http://www.codecogs.com/eqnedit.php?latex=x^2=4ay\\ y=\frac{x^2}{4a}\\ y'=\frac{x}{2a}\\ at~P,~y'=t\\ therefore~the~gradient~of~the~normal~is~m=\frac{-1}{t}\\ point~grad~formula\\ y-at^2=\frac{-1}{t}(x-2at)\\ y-at^2=\frac{-x}{t}@plus;2a\\ yt@plus;x=at^3@plus;2at~-(1)\\ similarly,~ys@plus;x=as^3@plus;2as~-(2)\\ (1)-(2)\\ yt-ys=at^3-as^3@plus;2at-2as\\ y(t-s)=a(t-s)(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a(t-s)\\ y=a(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a\\ sub~into~(1)\\ x=at^3@plus;sat-t(a(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a)\\ =at^2s-ats^2\\ R(ats(t-s),a(t^2@plus;ts@plus;s^2)@plus;2a)\\ \\ we~know~ts=-2\\ therefore~R(-2a(t-s),a(t^2@plus;s^2-2)@plus;2a)\\ taking~x=-2a(t-s)\\ \frac{x}{-2a}=(t-s)\\ squaring~both~sides~\frac{x^2}{4a}=t^2@plus;4@plus;s^2\\ substituting~into~y\\ y=a(\frac{x^2}{4a}-6)@plus;2a\\ =\frac{x^2}{4}-4a\\ therefore~the~locus~of~R~is\\ x^2=4(y@plus;4a)" target="_blank"><img src="http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?x^2=4ay\\ y=\frac{x^2}{4a}\\ y'=\frac{x}{2a}\\ at~P,~y'=t\\ therefore~the~gradient~of~the~normal~is~m=\frac{-1}{t}\\ point~grad~formula\\ y-at^2=\frac{-1}{t}(x-2at)\\ y-at^2=\frac{-x}{t}+2a\\ yt+x=at^3+2at~-(1)\\ similarly,~ys+x=as^3+2as~-(2)\\ (1)-(2)\\ yt-ys=at^3-as^3+2at-2as\\ y(t-s)=a(t-s)(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a(t-s)\\ y=a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a\\ sub~into~(1)\\ x=at^3+sat-t(a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ =at^2s-ats^2\\ R(ats(t-s),a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ \\ we~know~ts=-2\\ therefore~R(-2a(t-s),a(t^2+s^2-2)+2a)\\ taking~x=-2a(t-s)\\ \frac{x}{-2a}=(t-s)\\ squaring~both~sides~\frac{x^2}{4a}=t^2+4+s^2\\ substituting~into~y\\ y=a(\frac{x^2}{4a}-6)+2a\\ =\frac{x^2}{4}-4a\\ therefore~the~locus~of~R~is\\ x^2=4(y+4a)" title="x^2=4ay\\ y=\frac{x^2}{4a}\\ y'=\frac{x}{2a}\\ at~P,~y'=t\\ therefore~the~gradient~of~the~normal~is~m=\frac{-1}{t}\\ point~grad~formula\\ y-at^2=\frac{-1}{t}(x-2at)\\ y-at^2=\frac{-x}{t}+2a\\ yt+x=at^3+2at~-(1)\\ similarly,~ys+x=as^3+2as~-(2)\\ (1)-(2)\\ yt-ys=at^3-as^3+2at-2as\\ y(t-s)=a(t-s)(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a(t-s)\\ y=a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a\\ sub~into~(1)\\ x=at^3+sat-t(a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ =at^2s-ats^2\\ R(ats(t-s),a(t^2+ts+s^2)+2a)\\ \\ we~know~ts=-2\\ therefore~R(-2a(t-s),a(t^2+s^2-2)+2a)\\ taking~x=-2a(t-s)\\ \frac{x}{-2a}=(t-s)\\ squaring~both~sides~\frac{x^2}{4a}=t^2+4+s^2\\ substituting~into~y\\ y=a(\frac{x^2}{4a}-6)+2a\\ =\frac{x^2}{4}-4a\\ therefore~the~locus~of~R~is\\ x^2=4(y+4a)" /></a>

its a bit cluttered lol, hope that clears things up, and i hope its the right answer! :)

Thanks barbernator! After looking at your solution I realised I made a stupid mistake in my method. Thanks again.
 

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