Which Australian Prime Minister is better: Gough Whitlam or Julia Gillard? (2 Viewers)

[Lentern]

gough whitlam and malcolm fraser: supported indonesian imperialism, and its forseeable consequences, wholeheartedly
john howard: fought the indonesian imperialists with his bare hands and gave the east timorese the gift of self-determination. if we didn't vote him out in 2007 he would've liberated west papua too, probably.

who's the fuckwit?

You're full of it. Howard and Downer publicly and privately backed Indonesia consistently during the East Timor independence phases and stood idly by for ages whilst the militias were killing everybody in sight till Clinton strongarmed Howard into leading an intervention which did not exclusively consist of aussies, it was a UN intervention not an Australian one.

 

[townie]

No he was not awful but I daresay what I'm seeing here is something that seems to be very common amidst the gay, atheist lefties of the world in that Rudd's Christianity and his reluctance to support gay marriage completely poisoned him for them and as such grant him no fair evaluation. It's preposterous given no major political leader in Australian history has backed it, and it is such a faddy issue that his whole political worth rest upon it but for for the narcissistic few it seems to be the only issue that matters.

I'm not an atheist or that much of a leftie - and I still support gillard greatly despite her opposition to it, does it play into my opinion of him? Of course but is it the only reason I was disappointed by him? Of course not. Indeed I only brought it up to point out that I didn't consider him a true leftie (and nor do I think gillard, Keating or hawke are either)

PS To call it a "fad" is also insulting and apalling and you should hang your head in shame.

 

[townie]

he more or less just road roughshod over the top of them.

Another problem with him. Funny he couldn't seem to do that with the alleged anti-ets ministers.

 

[townie]

I'm one of the mob I'm allowed (not the atheist bit obviously). I've been involved in a number of the rallies and media campaigns and there is this odd phenomenon whereby for some reason people who oppose it on religious grounds seem to be considered more offensive than people who oppose it on other grounds. And I think that's what's at play here with the Rudd hate.

Please don't tell me this means you are gay because I really don't wan you in my camp.

Also I can't think of anybody who opposes it on grounds that aren't religious, or deeply rooted in religion. Besides religion isn't a valid argument against anything.

 

[Lolsmith]

nah its legit bro, go to east timor, it is paradise.

Then why don't we just take it

delicious Timorese slaves

 

[Lentern]

I'm not an atheist or that much of a leftie - and I still support gillard greatly despite her opposition to it, does it play into my opinion of him? Of course but is it the only reason I was disappointed by him? Of course not. Indeed I only brought it up to point out that I didn't consider him a true leftie (and nor do I think gillard, Keating or hawke are either)

Ok well here's the thing, I consider the political spectrum to be a relative science, I don't view things as being inherently left or right wing and so if you aren't considering any of the Labor Prime Ministers sans Whitlam left wing either than I can accept you're view that Rudd is but I would contend he is further left than Keating or Gillard.

PS To call it a "fad" is also insulting and apalling and you should hang your head in Shane

Oh gawd you're not about to mention civil liberties are you?

 

[funkshen]

You're full of it. Howard and Downer publicly and privately backed Indonesia consistently during the East Timor independence phases and stood idly by for ages whilst the militias were killing everybody in sight till Clinton strongarmed Howard into leading an intervention which did not exclusively consist of aussies, it was a UN intervention not an Australian one.

lolwut? the international community, australia in particular, was in the process of negotiating with suharto throughout the early 90s, and the consensus is that indonesia was going to cave in to a proposal on east timorese autonomy. it was quiet diplomacy. then bill clinton went to the APEC meeting in 1994 and, in the manner of an american-cum-self-appointed-spokesman-of-the-world, demanded reform. the indonesian imperialists, once bitten twice shy, were not going to have a bar of the american imperialists and their demands, and said as much.

and even after the backlash against clinton's statements, the howard government continued to push habibie to grant the east timorese a national referendum, for self-determination, after autonomy had been granted. habibie towed the anti-imperialist line and rebuffed the australians, so downer and howard decided to free the timorese with their bare hands.

 

[townie]

Oh gawd you're not about to mention civil liberties are you?

Well it is an important issue.

 

[Lentern]

Please don't tell me this means you are gay because I really don't wan you in my camp.

Also I can't think of anybody who opposes it on grounds that aren't religious, or deeply rooted in religion. Besides religion isn't a valid argument against anything.

The feelings mutual.

Gillard?

 

[Lentern]

lolwut? the international community, australia in particular, was in the process of negotiating with suharto throughout the early 90s, and the consensus is that indonesia was going to cave in to a proposal on east timorese autonomy. it was quiet diplomacy. then bill clinton went to the APEC meeting in 1994 and, in the manner of an american-cum-self-appointed-spokesman-of-the-world, demanded reform. the indonesian imperialists, once bitten twice shy, were not going to have a bar of the demands of the american imperialists and said as much.

and even after the backlash against clinton's statements, the howard government continued to push habibie to grant the east timorese a national referendum, for self-determination, after autonomy had been granted. habibie wouldn't have a bar of it, so downer and howard decided to free the timorese with their bare hands.

Is your last name Iriving?

 

[townie]

than I can accept you're view that Rudd is but I would contend he is further left than Keating or Gillard.

I assume by is you meant to say isn't, I would probably agree with you on that, I still think gillard makes a better PM though

 

[townie]

The feelings mutual.

Gillard?

Don't lie, you once admitted you liked me I like you when we aren't arguing.

I consider the whole "traditional" thing to be covered by rooted in religion. Her opposition to it is the stupidest of anybody by far though, at least the religious people have a deep seated belief that understand, even if I don't accept or agree with it.

 

[funkshen]

Is your last name Iriving?

my name is thomas crown

 

[Lentern]

Don't lie, you once admitted you liked me I like you when we aren't arguing.

I consider the whole "traditional" thing to be covered by rooted in religion. Her opposition to it is the stupidest of anybody by far though, at least the religious people have a deep seated belief that understand, even if I don't accept or agree with it.

I think the traditional line is proxy line for a fierce, hateful she (and others, Albrechtsen for example who is an anti gay atheist) holds for for people who don't conform to her perceived archetypal Australian. If you removed industrial relations from the equation she would have infinitely more in common with John Howard than she would any Labor Prime Minister.

 

[townie]

I think the traditional line is proxy line for a fierce, hateful she (and others, Albrechtsen for example who is an anti gay atheist) holds for for people who don't conform to her perceived archetypal Australian. If you removed industrial relations from the equation she would have infinitely more in common with John Howard than she would any Labor Prime Minister.

I think that's hyperbole in the extreme, and it is views like that which are going to lose us the next election.

 

[Lolsmith]

no I think the incompetency of your leaders have got that covered

 

[townie]

*pats lolsmith* sure sure Dearie

 

[Lentern]

I think that's hyperbole in the extreme, and it is views like that which are going to lose us the next election.

I don't imagine she'll be leader in November, much less at the next election.

 

[townie]

I don't imagine she'll be leader in November, much less at the next election.

I think you'll be proved wrong, I wouldn't be hoping too hard for your messiah Rudd to come save us all, he's too arrogant to leas a party headed for defeat

And at lolsmith: the only iota of joy I get from the fact that abbot will win the election is the fact that it will me such an unmitigated disaster that it will make Gillard look like Ron Paul in comparison

 

[Lentern]

I think you'll be proved wrong, I wouldn't be hoping too hard for your messiah Rudd to come save us all, he's too arrogant to leas a party headed for defeat

And at lolsmith: the only iota of joy I get from the fact that abbot will win the election is the fact that it will me such an unmitigated disaster that it will make Gillard look like Ron Paul in comparison

I think it is Rudd's very arrogance which will convince him that he can take back the leadership, sweep to victory and become a hero. He knows he's more popular than Abbott.