UTS or UNSW for Software Engineering? (Please Help, constructive advice) (2 Viewers)

[Drewk]

Hi
Needed ur help in deciding weather i should pick UTS or UNSW for Software Engineering? I have received offers for both but i cant decide with will be better for me i am trying to make the decision on the following basis: Is it worth going to UNSW even tho it has a much higher failure rate in subjects and is much harder just because of its recognition ? Threrefore as i was a few points below the required atar for UNSW but still got an offer, i am not sure as to weather it is better to go to UNSW and be average at my subjects (as they will be harder and ppl smarter there) or go to UTS and be higher up in my year group in marks etc. and how will this all end up in terms of getting me a job ?
Please add any other points of discussion that are relevant

Thanks

 

[iJimmy]

unsw provides better job opportunites after grad.

 

[Drewk]

unsw provides better job opportunites after grad.

How about classes and subjects are they much harder at unsw compared to uts?

 

[iJimmy]

I am guessing UNSW is harder since higher cut off but what do i know im still in school...

 

[Crobat]

Is it worth going to UNSW even tho it has a much higher failure rate in subjects

How do you know this for sure? Where are you getting this information?

In any event, both universities will have subjects with high failure rates for a variety of reasons more than likely surrounding the diligence (or lack thereof) of students. This shouldn't really affect your decision too much. I have a friend on the Co-op for Software Engineering and he doesn't feel the course is too hard with appropriate efficacy (>80 WAM). It is an engineering course after all, so a high failure rate shouldn't be that surprising or something that frightens you from going to one of the universities.

and is much harder just because of its recognition ?

Universities and difficulty of subjects don't work that way.

Threrefore as i was a few points below the required atar for UNSW but still got an offer, i am not sure as to weather it is better to go to UNSW and be average at my subjects (as they will be harder and ppl smarter there) or go to UTS and be higher up in my year group in marks etc.

This isn't something you can foresee like that. There's nothing to say you will be average/lower in your cohort at UNSW but definitively higher at UTS. There is every possibility it could be vice versa. Just because there is the perception that students at UNSW/USYD are smart does not automatically negate that fact that there can be smart people at UTS, and you receiving an offer at UNSW does not mean you are smarter than most people at UTS and will therefore be higher ranked in their course. Remember, ATAR cut-offs are determined by demand, and naturally a more prestigious university will have more demand. But this doesn't prove anything for the course difficulties or student candidature definitively.

and how will this all end up in terms of getting me a job ?

At the end of the day, you won't be getting employed by riding on your university's name. It will really come down to how you use your time at uni and how much initiative you show in searching for internship/work exp/opportunities like that. The difference is that UNSW may have connections to bigger firms and could maybe provide an easier platform to communicate with them than UTS because of how long the university has been around, but that'll likely be up to you to find out. You will need to do some research about whether either unis provide or set up internships or work experience for you, or how accessible this is. Both unis will have careers websites that will advertise job vacancies for example.

 

[Drewk]

How do you know this for sure? Where are you getting this information?

In any event, both universities will have subjects with high failure rates for a variety of reasons more than likely surrounding the diligence (or lack thereof) of students. This shouldn't really affect your decision too much. I have a friend on the Co-op for Software Engineering and he doesn't feel the course is too hard with appropriate efficacy (>80 WAM). It is an engineering course after all, so a high failure rate shouldn't be that surprising or something that frightens you from going to one of the universities.



Universities and difficulty of subjects don't work that way.



This isn't something you can foresee like that. There's nothing to say you will be average/lower in your cohort at UNSW but definitively higher at UTS. There is every possibility it could be vice versa. Just because there is the perception that students at UNSW/USYD are smart does not automatically negate that fact that there can be smart people at UTS, and you receiving an offer at UNSW does not mean you are smarter than most people at UTS and will therefore be higher ranked in their course. Remember, ATAR cut-offs are determined by demand, and naturally a more prestigious university will have more demand. But this doesn't prove anything for the course difficulties or student candidature definitively.



At the end of the day, you won't be getting employed by riding on your university's name. It will really come down to how you use your time at uni and how much initiative you show in searching for internship/work exp/opportunities like that. The difference is that UNSW may have connections to bigger firms and could maybe provide an easier platform to communicate with them than UTS because of how long the university has been around, but that'll likely be up to you to find out. You will need to do some research about whether either unis provide or set up internships or work experience for you, or how accessible this is. Both unis will have careers websites that will advertise job vacancies for example.

Hi thanks for your reply, as i was looking further into the 2 degrees it is specified that in UTS ICT engineering is the major and software (engineering) is a sub major where as in UNSW software engineering is a major separately, therefore which uni provide better job prospects in the field of software engineering?

 

[brent012]

I am guessing UNSW is harder since higher cut off but what do i know im still in school...

That's not how uni works. At all.

While they may have good intentions, no one in this thread is studying software engineering or is working in the industry so don't really know what they are talking about. There's some decent general advice, but also some terrible general advice.

Software Engineering is a field where getting good jobs is dependant on your skills (and experience) rather than just your degree. Rather than just parrot information that you can find online or in other threads around here i'll tell you the truth about software engineering at UNSW vs ICT Eng (software) at UTS as a current student of the latter.

First of all UNSW has a larger Engineering faculty and more money. This means the UNSW Software Engineering course is more targeted, UTS on the other hand has a smaller faculty. As a ICT Eng (Software) student at UTS you have the normal engineering core, which unlike UNSW SE includes physics. In addition to that you have the ICT core, where you will be doing a networking subject, a subject on signals and a basic introductory electrical engineering subject. That electrical engineering subject serves as a prereq for some subjects which blur the line between software and electrical engineering. (i.e. some lower level programming, embedded systems, operating systems etc.)

I believe at UNSW majority of the course is tailored solely towards software engineering (with a CS focus). There are obviously benefits of both, but some of the engineering (or ICT) core at UTS is IMO unnecessary and related more to engineering as a whole rather than SE.

UTS is pretty weak on the comp sci theory. For some time now UTS haven't even had a comp sci course, there are some comp sci-y subjects/majors in the Bachelor of Science in IT course but no dedicated course. As a result that decreases the pool of subjects that can be shared, and despite the existence of some more CS style subjects in the IT faculty (now merged with Eng faculty, but not fully integrated) these are at the moment not included in the course. Maybe they eventually will, or maybe it's an intentional decision. But either way it means the average UTS ICT Eng (Software) student might be clueless when it comes to data structures and algorithms for example.

I think that's partially due to the practical approach at UTS. At UNSW they teach you C first, it's an old language but a pivotal one still relevant today - the syntax is also quite common with some of the most popular languages used in software development today. (C++, Java, C# and Objective C) C is primarily a procedural language, and that along with a plethora of design decisions make it not favoured for use in mainstream software development. C is powerful but it's a lot lower level than say Java, meaning you are essentially closer to the machine in C.

After learning C you then move on to higher level languages at UNSW, this is in line with the CS focus at UNSW as a lot of the algorithms and computer science theory is practically redundant in modern languages which have a lot of functionality built in to make life easy for developers. Rather than writing your own sorting algorithm in C, you can just run the OrderBy method in LINQ in C# for example - you could implement the algorithm yourself but majority of the time there is no need to. I would guess that UNSW start with C to make you think like a computer scientist, ironically in the work place this is not much use a lot of the time but would help in job interviews which involve algorithmic questions. However a good software engineer would be interested enough to participate in projects at home, programming competitions etc. which build those skills.

UTS teach Java first and teach it with an Object Oriented perspective, the object oriented paradigm has been the choice of the industry since the 90s essentially. After a couple of subejcts of Java you do some electrical engineering subjects and end up doing some programming in assembly (the very lowest level language) on some hardware put together yourself. After that you move on to the C subjects which have a focus on embedded systems. I haven't looked too much into what comes after all of those subjects, but a lot of project based and I believe it's similar at UNSW.

The UTS engineering practice program offers a wide range of ICT internships, we have the least students but the most positions advertised on the internal job board. But many students take what they can get and don't go looking. As a result a lot of ICT students end up doing more support oriented positions and don't learn much about software development. That might suit them fine, and they may want to get into that in future but I don't think that's what the program was designed for.

So long story short, UNSW is targeted and CS theory oriented while UTS is practice oriented and also provides a general engineering base.

Honestly in my opinion, i'd probably say the UNSW course as a whole might be better. But it depends a lot on the individual and I think students at each uni have to do some catching up or self teaching. UTS coerce you into getting some experience which I think is great but lacks some theory. On the other hand it's possible to graduate at UNSW SEng with hardly any experience - IMO that's not what engineering is about but whatever. In the end the reason i'd say UNSW comes out ahead is that the bad UNSW SEng students will start working and get experience while the bad UTS students may never really learn much of the theory. While the UTS student might be more employable with some experience on their resume, the average UNSW graduate is probably going to be more knowledgable a few years down the track. Either way you shouldn't be aiming to be an average graduate.

All that said, i'm confident I made the right decision with UTS and have never considered transferring. Put simply, the engineering practice program lead me to my current (extended) internship where I am learning more than I ever could at uni. Like I was told when I started, you go to uni to get a job - so if you are at a level where an employer sees value in you why not start early? I also think the more difficult maths subjects at UNSW for example might have made my first year not an enjoyable experience.

Just as a final point, my opinions here are exclusively for soft eng vs ICT Eng (software). The truth is that SE is FAR removed from engineering, and the UTS eng course is slightly more suited to majors like civil and mechanical. The students in the popular, traditional engineering streams don't have core subject issues since the core revolves around them. Either way i'm confident the courses will improve and that most the negative points will eventually be remedied, UTS is a very young university but has big plans and is growing rapidly.

 

[Drewk]

That's not how uni works. At all.

While they may have good intentions, no one in this thread is studying software engineering or is working in the industry so don't really know what they are talking about. There's some decent general advice, but also some terrible general advice.

Software Engineering is a field where getting good jobs is dependant on your skills (and experience) rather than just your degree. Rather than just parrot information that you can find online or in other threads around here i'll tell you the truth about software engineering at UNSW vs ICT Eng (software) at UTS as a current student of the latter.

First of all UNSW has a larger Engineering faculty and more money. This means the UNSW Software Engineering course is more targeted, UTS on the other hand has a smaller faculty. As a ICT Eng (Software) student at UTS you have the normal engineering core, which unlike UNSW SE includes physics. In addition to that you have the ICT core, where you will be doing a networking subject, a subject on signals and a basic introductory electrical engineering subject. That electrical engineering subject serves as a prereq for some subjects which blur the line between software and electrical engineering. (i.e. some lower level programming, embedded systems, operating systems etc.)

I believe at UNSW majority of the course is tailored solely towards software engineering (with a CS focus). There are obviously benefits of both, but some of the engineering (or ICT) core at UTS is IMO unnecessary and related more to engineering as a whole rather than SE.

UTS is pretty weak on the comp sci theory. For some time now UTS haven't even had a comp sci course, there are some comp sci-y subjects/majors in the Bachelor of Science in IT course but no dedicated course. As a result that decreases the pool of subjects that can be shared, and despite the existence of some more CS style subjects in the IT faculty (now merged with Eng faculty, but not fully integrated) these are at the moment not included in the course. Maybe they eventually will, or maybe it's an intentional decision. But either way it means the average UTS ICT Eng (Software) student might be clueless when it comes to data structures and algorithms for example.

I think that's partially due to the practical approach at UTS. At UNSW they teach you C first, it's an old language but a pivotal one still relevant today - the syntax is also quite common with some of the most popular languages used in software development today. (C++, Java, C# and Objective C) C is primarily a procedural language, and that along with a plethora of design decisions make it not favoured for use in mainstream software development. C is powerful but it's a lot lower level than say Java, meaning you are essentially closer to the machine in C.

After learning C you then move on to higher level languages at UNSW, this is in line with the CS focus at UNSW as a lot of the algorithms and computer science theory is practically redundant in modern languages which have a lot of functionality built in to make life easy for developers. Rather than writing your own sorting algorithm in C, you can just run the OrderBy method in LINQ in C# for example - you could implement the algorithm yourself but majority of the time there is no need to. I would guess that UNSW start with C to make you think like a computer scientist, ironically in the work place this is not much use a lot of the time but would help in job interviews which involve algorithmic questions. However a good software engineer would be interested enough to participate in projects at home, programming competitions etc. which build those skills.

UTS teach Java first and teach it with an Object Oriented perspective, the object oriented paradigm has been the choice of the industry since the 90s essentially. After a couple of subejcts of Java you do some electrical engineering subjects and end up doing some programming in assembly (the very lowest level language) on some hardware put together yourself, look up DSX kit to see what I mean. After that you move on to the C subjects which have a focus on embedded systems. I haven't looked too much into what comes after all of those subjects, but a lot of project based and I believe it's similar at UNSW.

The UTS engineering practice program offers a wide range of ICT internships, we have the least students but the most positions advertised on the internal job board. But many students take what they can get and don't go looking. As a result a lot of ICT students end up doing more support oriented positions and don't learn much about software development. That might suit them fine, and they may want to get into that in future but I don't think that's what the program was designed for.

So long story short, UNSW is targeted and CS theory oriented while UTS is practice oriented and also provides a general engineering base.

Honestly in my opinion, i'd probably say the UNSW course as a whole might be better. But it depends a lot on the individual and I think students at each uni have to do some catching up or self teaching. UTS coerce you into getting some experience which I think is great but lacks some theory. On the other hand it's possible to graduate at UNSW SEng with hardly any experience - IMO that's not what engineering is about but whatever. In the end the reason i'd say UNSW comes out ahead is that the bad UNSW SEng students will start working and get experience while the bad UTS students may never really learn much of the theory. While the UTS student might be more employable with some experience on their resume, the average UNSW graduate is probably going to be more knowledgable a few years down the track. Either way you shouldn't be aiming to be an average graduate.

All that said, i'm confident I made the right decision with UTS and have never considered transferring. Put simply, the engineering practice program lead me to my current (extended) internship where I am learning more than I ever could at uni. Like I was told when I started, you go to uni to get a job - so if you are at a level where an employer sees value in you why not start early? I also think the more difficult maths subjects at UNSW for example might have made my first year not an enjoyable experience.

Just as a final point, my opinions here are exclusively for soft eng vs ICT Eng (software). The truth is that SE is FAR removed from engineering, and the UTS eng course is slightly more suited to majors like civil and mechanical. The students in the popular, traditional engineering streams don't have core subject issues since the core revolves around them. Either way i'm confident the courses will improve and that most the negative points will eventually be remedied, UTS is a very young university but has big plans and is growing rapidly.

Thanks a lot for ur wonderful post helped alot

 

[Drewk]

On a side note, do you think that the other subjects that you study at UTS as a part of the ICT core enable you to have job oppourtunites in other feilds where as UNSW limits you to Software engineering only?

 

[brent012]

It would probably prepare you more for swapping fields (particularly to something like Electronics), but either way on your resume you'll still have software down as the major so as a grad of any uni you'd need to self teach a lot of stuff and either make a gradual transition or be able to prove to future employers that you have those skills.

In a single degree you still have electives at either uni to expand your horizons if you wish.

Edit: What I should mention is that while we do a few electrical subjects, we miss out on all the real technical/difficult/mathy ones. Those subjects are in the ict course because of the huge overlap between telecom or comp systems and electrical, not to prepare ict students to become electrical engineers. Our subject "Signal Theory" is a fairly dumbed down version of their "Signals and Systems".

 

[supriya98]

Hi, sorry i dont know how to ask my own question on this coz i just joined recently. but i also wana noe dat which uni is the best for software engineering? unsw or usyd?

 

[peri24]

Hi, sorry i dont know how to ask my own question on this coz i just joined recently. but i also wana noe dat which uni is the best for software engineering? unsw or usyd?

kiss mee 1st den i'll tell u.

 

[Shadowdude]

Hi, sorry i dont know how to ask my own question on this coz i just joined recently. but i also wana noe dat which uni is the best for software engineering? unsw or usyd?

unsw

 

[supriya98]

Thnx shadowdude