MedVision ad

HSC 2015 MX2 Permutations & Combinations Marathon (archive) (1 Viewer)

Status
Not open for further replies.

InteGrand

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
6,109
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

Yep I got A winning in 1287 ways.

Probably did something really stupid with the probability.
Oh right, I saw your method now, you found the number of ways for each person to win, and then calculated based on probability being proportional to the number of ways to win for each? Each of these ways is not equally probable, so is that the reason it is invalid?
 

RealiseNothing

what is that?It is Cowpea
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
4,591
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2013
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

Oh right, I saw your method now, you found the number of ways for each person to win, and then calculated based on probability being proportional to the number of ways to win for each? Each of these ways is not equally probable, so is that the reason it is invalid?
Pretty sure that is the reason now that I'm rethinking the probability part instead of the combinatorial part of my method.
 

braintic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
2,137
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

Yeah and also i tried probability version and it didnt work?
Even though all 13 games aren't necessarily played, you can still pretend that they are all played. In many series such as cricket tests, the dead rubbers are played.
So a person can win with 8, 9, 10, .... wins.

The best way to convince yourself is to take a best of three series where the first to 2 wins.
First draw an unbalanced tree (where some branches terminate after 2 games, and some terminate after three games), write the probabilities on each branch, then do the calculation.
Then draw a balanced tree where all three games are assumed to be played, and just count the appropriate leaves.
You should get the same answer.
 

braintic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
2,137
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

[*]

Warning: beyond high school difficulty

12 counters numbered 1 to 12 are to be distributed one at a time in ascending numerical order between two distinguishable boxes A and B so that we finish with 6 in each box.
In how many ways can this be done so that at any time during the distribution process there are never more counters in box B than in box A?

Answer: 132
 
Last edited:

Drsoccerball

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
3,650
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2015
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

[*]

Warning: beyond high school difficulty

12 counters numbered 1 to 12 are to be distributed one at a time in ascending numerical order between two distinguishable boxes A and B so that we finish with 6 in each box.
In how many ways can this be done so that at any time during the distribution process there are never more counters in box B than in box A?

Answer: 132
apparently : 3!2! +5!
 

glittergal96

Active Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
418
Gender
Female
HSC
2014
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

[*]

Warning: beyond high school difficulty

12 counters numbered 1 to 12 are to be distributed one at a time in ascending numerical order between two distinguishable boxes A and B so that we finish with 6 in each box.
In how many ways can this be done so that at any time during the distribution process there are never more counters in box B than in box A?

Answer: 132
You can visualise this problem as counting the number of paths (consisting of moves right and moves up) along the edges of a 6x6 grid from the bottom left corner to the top right corner that always stay below the diagonal.

We will solve the generalisation to an nxn grid.

There are C(2n,n) paths in total, as we must have n horizontal and n vertical segments in our path, and we simply need to put them in some order.

We solve this problem by counting the "bad" paths.

If a path is bad it must hit the superdiagonal (the diagonal right above the main diagonal, consisting of points with y=x+1 if you were to coordinatise.)

If a path hits the superdiagonal then we can "reflect about the superdiagonal" the part of it's journey after the initial collision and obtain a path between the opposite corners of the (n-1)x(n+1) grid. (Because up until the collision with the superdiagonal we have one more vertical step than horizontal step, and afterwards we have one more horizontal step than vertical step. The reflection swaps vertical and horizontal steps so we are left with n+1 vertical steps and n-1 horizontal steps.)

As this reflection map is a bijection, we have that the number of "bad" paths is therefore the number of paths between opposite corners of an (n-1)x(n+1) grid consisting of up and right steps. This is just C(2n,n+1).

So the answer to the original problem is:

C(2n,n)-C(2n,n+1)=C(2n,n)/(n+1)

which is actually the n-th Catalan number.

(So there is probably also a nice recursive approach to this problem.)

Edit:

Aha yes, you could also split into cases depending on whether you hit the main diagonal in the middle of your journey or not, and you can get the Catalan recurrence from this. As 6 is small you could then compute the 6th Catalan number without too much difficulty, or you could use something like generating functions to derive their formula.
 
Last edited:

deboiz

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
55
Gender
Male
HSC
2015
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

HAHAH are you sure that simplifies to a/(a+b) i get something else, this is weird because i also believe your argument (for now)
 

deboiz

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
55
Gender
Male
HSC
2015
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

OMG HAHAHHA thanks, i made a really silly mistake P: btw that font instantly makes you seem like a serious mathematician
 

RealiseNothing

what is that?It is Cowpea
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
4,591
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2013
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

I've seen that question before in the multiple choice of a 4U trial I think.
 

Drsoccerball

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
3,650
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2015
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

So is potato's answer right ? does he get full marks?
 

braintic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
2,137
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Re: 2015 permutation X2 marathon

It's kind of like quantum mechanics - when you look at the first marble you change the answer!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top