Same Sex Marriage Debate (1 Viewer)

Drdusk

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A lot of laws are based on morality. For example indecent public exposure (especially for women) is seen as immoral by western society and many religions whereas in other cultures its perfectly ok. This law is almost entirely based on 'personal feelings,'' i.e. women should dress modestly.
Most laws in western countries are certainly not based on morals. I would say it’s rather the opposite. There is usually facts and data that back up laws. The more religion and state have been separated the greater this divide has gotten and countries have become more free. Yes a proportion of laws are based on morals. Look at the end of the day there will always exist outliers to everything no matter what and I acknowledge that.
 

dighead

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While many laws are based on facts, there are many that are not and believing otherwise is simply naive. If laws we're enacted purely on facts and data, then smoking should be banned since there are virtually zero benefits, and have the potential to harm others due to passive effects. Russia is planning to ban cigarette sales for people born after a certain year to gradually phase out smoking, but one could hardly call Russia free. In fact, the right to smoke, despite all it's damaging effects, is regarded as a freedom. In the US, many laws are passed after intense lobbying from interest groups. The rich pass laws that allow them to pay minimal tax by sending their profits offshore. The US Republican party pushes through laws that limit who can vote in an attempt to win elections. The NRA aggressively funded and successfully lobbied to pass a law that prohibited any government funding from being used to conduct research onto gun violence. The list goes on.

While many common sense laws are based on facts, they are usually laws that do not infringe on anyone's beliefs, e.g. drink driving. Almost any other law that does not fit into this category (e.g. same sex marriage) is not based on facts, but is based on the agenda of a particular interest group, whether they be religious or political in nature. In the US, the so called "land of the free", many laws are passed from under the table deals. This happens everyday, and they aren't simply outliers. Facts and evidence can only get so far - this isn't science, it's politics. Subjective feelings and personal preferences play a far greater role in many laws that we have today.
 
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SylviaB

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While many laws are based on facts, there are many that are not and believing otherwise is simply naive. If laws we're enacted purely on facts and data, then smoking should be banned since there are virtually zero benefits.
This is moronic. All laws are based on, to varying extents, value judgements. Value judgements do not possess truth value, which is to say, they're not a matter of "facts and judgement". In the case of banning smoking, the value judgement is "The government should pass laws that maximise people's health outcomes, not their personal freedoms". This is not a mater of "facts and data", this is a value judgement. There is no "data" that says that maximising health outcomes is more important than personal freedom. That's a value judgement you're making.

The US Republican party pushes through laws that limit who can vote in an attempt to win elections.
No, they absolutely are not. They are attempting to pass voter ID laws, which means you must be able to prove your identity in order to be able to vote which is hardly unreasonable at all.

The NRA aggressively funded and successfully lobbied to pass a law that prohibited any government funding from being used to conduct research onto gun violence.
Did you actually have any evidence for your claims?

Almost any other law that does not fit into this category (e.g. same sex marriage) is not based on facts, but is based on the agenda of a particular interest group, whether they be religious or political in nature.
Spoiler alert: Neither side of the 'same sex marriage debate' are basing their views on 'facts and data'. They're all basing it off of their own values.

In the US, the so called "land of the free", many laws are passed from under the table deals.
Again, do you have evidence for this?

Facts and evidence can only get so far - this isn't science, it's politics. Subjective feelings and personal preferences play a far greater role in many laws that we have today.
Okay, what should abortion laws be based on "facts and evidence"? Morally speaking, pro-abortionists think abortion isn't murder, anti-abortionists do think it is murder. So, which is it? Can we prove it is or isn't murder? No, it all comes down to a value judgement. Either side can make specific claims that are scientifically invalid, but it cannot be scientifically proven that it is or isn't murder. It all comes down to personhood, and whether a fetus has personhood or not is a value judgement. And this is why people who declare that all laws be based on "facts and evidence" are idiots.
 

willitrue

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This is everyone's choice; if someone likes it, why should they forbid it? For some countries, same-sex marriage is typical, but for others, it is not. In many countries, the mentality of people is not yet ready for same-sex marriage. For example, in Russia, two gay men holding hands in the street can be beaten up even during the day. In some countries, sex toys are banned, I am 22 years old, and I like to indulge in different toys. I feel that my boyfriend wants to buy everything from this store https://lovermart.com/product/adam-eve-cool-curve-jelly-dong/, but I like it. Our sex has become diverse and unusual. I do not understand how girls can live without 18+ toys.
 
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Drdusk

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aight wb incest
There is actually no factual way at least that I can think of to justify this and I suspect that some day in the future it will become legal in Australia, at least under certain circumstances. Depends on the demand maybe? There are many countries actually where it is legal. Take Japan and South Korea who are doing really well and incest is legal between two consenting adults.

I know that the argument is that it creates children with a higher chance of defects. With that being said I don’t think it’s a strong argument. The chances of having a child after a vasectomy for example is negligible. I guess you can still say that 0.001% is still going to turn out to be a lot of people when you consider whole populations

However what about incest between two consenting gay adults? That has nothing to do with the creation of a child.

I want to see how people justify it. Coz I can’t seem to do it factually. Obviously I personally am disgusted by it.
 

dan964

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There is actually no factual way at least that I can think of to justify this and I suspect that some day in the future it will become legal in Australia, at least under certain circumstances. Depends on the demand maybe? There are many countries actually where it is legal. Take Japan and South Korea who are doing really well and incest is legal between two consenting adults.

I know that the argument is that it creates children with a higher chance of defects. With that being said I don’t think it’s a strong argument. The chances of having a child after a vasectomy for example is negligible. I guess you can still say that 0.001% is still going to turn out to be a lot of people when you consider whole populations

However what about incest between two consenting gay adults? That has nothing to do with the creation of a child.

I want to see how people justify it. Coz I can’t seem to do it factually. Obviously I personally am disgusted by it.
Well one such method of justification not that i agree with it, is to take the approach that you have, show that there is no strong arguments against it.
ergo as follows.
1. There is no strong argument against X
2. People want X to be legalised
3. From (1) and (2) there is no reason why not X should be legalised.

I think in this case, I think the argument against incest, is it undermines familial relations.
 

dan964

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Question: If you support homosexuality and don't support incest are you not contradicting yourself especially if the basis of your argument is if they are not hurting anyone then let them be.
There is to be made a helpful distinction between homosexuality and homosexualism.
Homosexuality: a condition of personal identity in which a person is sexually oriented toward persons of the same sex.
Homosexualism: explicit and overt homosexual practice.

The latter is what a lot of people object to; not the former.
Mind you, since the government doesn't legislate against adultery,ergo it shouldn't do so against homosexualism; even I would disagree with both.

post edit: see my reply on page 21/22 for fleshing out over why Christians make the distinction. (But it should be clear, one is not a choice, and one is).
 
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Queenroot

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There is to be made a helpful distinction between homosexuality and homosexualism.
Homosexuality: a condition of personal identity in which a person is sexually oriented toward persons of the same sex.
Homosexualism: explicit and overt homosexual practice.

The latter is what a lot of people object to; not the former.
Mind you, since the government doesn't legislate against adultery,ergo it shouldn't do so against homosexualism; even I would disagree with both.
what the fuc is a homosexual practice
rlly the only argument against incest is: wtf
kinda gross tbh each to their own tho
 

Drdusk

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I think in this case, I think the argument against incest, is it undermines familial relations.
That’s a fair point, it might but it might not. Family relations in asian countries like South Korea and Japan are by far much more robust and strict than any western country. Incest being legal as far as I can tell doesn’t seem to have undermined families or society in any way. Additionally now I’m thinking should the government have the right to determine what should be an acceptable family relation and what shouldn’t be. I’m not sure if this is a sufficient enough argument which is why eventually I predict it will become legal if enough people campaign for it.

becareful in 10 years time they'll cancel you for being incestaphobic
Cancelling has actually always been a thing sadly. You look at something like Churches that have throughout history tried to cancel scientific ideas or scientists. Now days it’s just getting out of hand where things that most people consider ridiculous are cancelled. I think most reasonable people are pissed off when people are overly sensitive and rush to cancel anything that they don’t agree with, without even systematically contending with what is being said.
 

CM_Tutor

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There is to be made a helpful distinction between homosexuality and homosexualism.
Homosexuality: a condition of personal identity in which a person is sexually oriented toward persons of the same sex.
Homosexualism: explicit and overt homosexual practice.

The latter is what a lot of people object to; not the former.
Mind you, since the government doesn't legislate against adultery,ergo it shouldn't do so against homosexualism; even I would disagree with both.
I can only recall having this distinction be made as part of "hate the sin, love the sinner" perspectives. Perhaps the argument is advanced by other groups or in other contexts, but I don't recall have seen that.

IMO, the underlying notion has some utility, in that a person's thoughts, ideas, fantasies, etc, can be separated from their actions. A person who declares a biblical belief in loving their neighbours and charity for the needy while selfishly and greedily seeking to live a lavish lifestyle, refusing to help others, and advocating racist rejections of others should be judged y their actions rather than their professed ideals. Similarly, a person who imagines or dreams of violence but does not act of those thoughts is to be commended for their restraint.

However, there are also circumstances where there is no utility in a thoughts and desires v. actions distinction. Homosexuality is a normal variation in sexual orientation, seen in many species other than humans, and to suggest to a gay person that it is ok to feel same sex attractions but it is wrong to act on the very human needs for affection and intimacy is not acceptance, nor love, nor support or understanding. It is, perhaps, profoundly ignorant to suggest that acting one should not act in line with one's nature in such a fundamental part of human existence, or perhaps callous, or (in some cases) it is a manifestation of hate.

Sexual orientation may evolve over a person's lifetime but there is no legitimate medical or scientific evidence that it can be changed. To suggest (as some do) that same-sex attracted people have equal access to marriage as they are free to marry a person of the opposite sex makes a mockery of what the institution of marriage means. To suggest that same-sex attracted people can only be acceptable to a religious community through celibacy and the denial of a core aspect of their nature is not only judgemental but also hateful - an insistence on suffering over something natural, normal, and out of their control.

Objecting to homosexual actions, undertaken consensually and privately by adults, is not a manifestation of acceptance or a value-neutral perspective on homosexual orientation. The logic is akin to saying that living in water is fine but breathing under water us not, and so accepting whales whilst condemning fish, unless the fish learn to breathe only at the surface and never underwater.

Humans are sexual animals, with an urge to express themselves sexually. As a society, we lay down laws to protect vulnerable groups (like children) from harm. We should punish those who force sexual encounters on the unwilling , rape being a violation regardless of the sexuality or behaviours of the perpetrator towards their victim. We also recognise that sexual behaviour is not solely about procreation and the desires and actions of consenting adults in privacy are areas that society should not, in general, regulate. Religious groups (of whatever faith and belief system) have the right to express views on matters of personal behaviour and even to exclude members from their groups should they wish... but they don't have the right to impose their views on non-members. They can advocate and then abide by societal decisions. Sadly, it still happens that groups or their members believe that their right to their own beliefs extends to a right to judge others, to act as if their values extend everywhere except inside the bodies of those who disagree. Telling someone who does not share your faith that they will be judged and punished for being who they are is often an unwelcome intrusion. Telling a young person struggling with their understanding of themselves that they face rejection and even damnation for express how they feel is not an act of love; it is a brutalising strategy used in an attempt to force them to compliance, one that has done massive harm to many who struggle to achieve a level of peace and self-acceptance.

@dan964, you are free to hold your beliefs and to express them. Unfortunately, I see the distinction that you raise as unhelpful and harmful. I do not accept that there is a meaningful separation between "I accept person X as a gay man, but only so long as he never acts on that orientation" and "I don't accept person X because he is a gay man." The former is not a statement of tolerance or an expression of love for one's neighbour. Rather, it is a demand that someone suppress their nature to be acceptable in your eyes. It is as unreasonable as expressing acceptance for an immigrant so long as they set aside their cultural heritage and background and be a "true" Australian, or of acceptance of a person from a different faith. so long as they convert. Acceptance of a person's homosexuality (or bisexuality or gender identity or ...) is not meaningful if it comes with a requirement that that person not express their identity in ways that you disapprove (or object to, as you put it above).

I can accept that it was not your intention to offend in making your statement, and I know that your perspective is one shared by others. However, it is offensive, in my view. Given the size of the LGBTQIA+ community and its allies, I suspect I am not alone.
 

Paradoxica

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it is clear that dan has a naïve or possibly non-existent understanding of the psychology of sexuality (and even if it exists, it is heavily clouded by religious puritanicalism), so i would take anything he says about it with a molecule of salt.
 

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