Should there be an Aboriginal voice to parliament? (6 Viewers)

[SylviaB]

are you under the impression that every single aboriginal policy over the past say 40 years hasn't been "actually working towards improving health and well-being outcomes for aboriginal people"? There's no way there's going to be any improvement from this or any other kind of policy. These people don't have any profound insight into things that nobody has ever heard before, and if the policies of the past 40 years HAD worked, none of these people would have been surprised by that, it would have been extremely obvious to them that they would have worked. It's only in hindsight that they failed that it's 'obvious' why they failed and whatever new policies they propose are also 'obviously' going to work. And then in 20 years time when they inevitably do bugger all, it will be 'obvious' to these people why they failed and that the problem is these people not having enough political power etc.

 

[SylviaB]

What exactly is it that these people are going to propose to make things better? Surely if it's so important, they would have been talking about it and promoting it non-stop for decades. Why would they need the voice to parliment to wait to advocate for particular policies? Either the policies are public and known about and we can discuss them directly (instead of assuming they'll be good because they're coming from aboriginal people), or they're not known and weirdly were never advocated for by these people in the past.

 

[cosmo 2]

that is the best argument against the voice, if this thing really was so capable of such great ideas that could fix abo problems then they'd already have been implemented by now. we don't need the existence of the voice to know what these ideas are - they could just tell us them and if they were so great we'd all be slapping our heads saying "wow why didn't i think of that". if the most extreme interventions (such as the kansas city school experiment - look it up) failed to absolutely do anything to fix similar problems in other places, what the fuck is the voice going to do here. it will have no ideas we haven't already tried and won't come up with any, because there isn't any.

 

[dumNerd]

I find a massive hypocrisy in Australian 'multiculturalism'. I, in no way, blame this on the immigrants. They did nothing. It's the government's fault. Correct me if I'm wrong, but before Australia turned 'multicultural', they never asked the people already here if they wanted that to happen. And I agree about the immigrants shitting on our culture. Most of my friends, who are immigrants, came here and all they do is shit on how 'woke' and 'white' Australia is and how it should adapt their cultures. I'm sorry but, you're coming in to a different country (which is extremely generous of the country, and the alternative is whatever third-world they came from), only to use it as a doormat and complain about everything and wish to eradicate its culture. I'm sorry but you came here. You can't just come to a country that generously let you in, only to shit on its culture and people. Imagine if a bunch of white Australians, for example, immigrated to a country in the Middle East and demanded that Islam be eradicated and their culture erased so that it becomes a white country. They wouldn't take that! Hypocrisy at its finest. Yet us western countries bend over and let whoever comes in boss us around and remove all mention of white culture, like how Big W stopped calling them 'Christmas' trees or whatever a few years back. Most immigrants hate us and hate our culture and are unwilling to assimilate and learn to live with us. So why do we let them come in and boss us around? Why are we so afraid of offending people who hate us?
Again, I am not saying ALL immigrants are like this, nor am I saying its their fault. It's the government's fault for letting so many in. I'm completely down for 'multiculturalism' that practices assimilation. If every immigrant adopted our culture and lived in harmony with us, then I'd have no issues. I have some immigrant friends who are just like this. They are greatful for our country and the opportunities it provided them. But in reality, this is just a minority. If it weren't then why is each Sydney suburb an ethnic centre, pools of different ethnicities of people who came here and refuse to assimilate and become Australian. Most people think that they should be able to practice their own cultures. Well go back to your old country if you want to do that. If you want to live like you did back at home so bad don't do it here, were our own country. They have no right to complain, our country let them in here, a massive privelege. If I, as a white Australian, were to move to a country outside of the West, I would be expected to adopt their culture, dress like them, etc. They would be FURIOUS if this happened to their country. So why do we let this happen to ours? Again, I'm down for multiculturalism. But what Australia has going is not multiculturalism. It's baby sitting. It's letting immigrants walk all over us. Again again again, this is not all immigrants. I'm sure many love Australia and its culture. The bad eggs ruin it for everybody though. This is the ugly truth that nobody wants to accept.

" Most immigrants hate us and hate our culture and are unwilling to assimilate and learn to live with us. So why do we let them come in and boss us around? Why are we so afraid of offending people who hate us? " - you have to consider which group of immigrants your considering here. Most asians (chinese, korean, indians etc.) are all very happy to be in Australia and definitely do not shit on Australian culture (In my 18 years of living here I'v never seen something like that occurring). So I'm curious where you get "most" from.

 

[dumNerd]

That was quite a large generalisation, I'm not afraid to admit. 'Most' was too harsh a word. I was talking from my own experience, and I will say nearly all Asians I know love Australia. Mainly chinese, japanese, korean etc. However, other immigrants I find a lot of hatred for the Australian culture in. Like everything I think it comes down to social media. A lot of my immigrant friends like to shit all over Australia after binge watching tiktoks and reels and whatever about 'traditional' cultures and their 'homeland' and stuff. In no way am I saying that you can't be proud of your heritage, I'm just saying that bitching about the country that happilly accepted you with open arms while praising the country you fled from is a bit excessive and entitled.

I personally do agree with your mentality but let's remember that the word "majority" only applies to a particular group of immigrants (and if we're thinking of the same group something I want to note is that the parents tend to be very appreciative it's the kids that have this superiority complex not just towards Australian culture but all cultures - piss me off trying to act cool with drill rap and shit but in reality just being pesky little brats that need to be disciplined and taught manners)

 

[SylviaB]

a sydney suburb being renamed 'little india' deomnstrates the idea of 'assimilation' is absolutely farcical. They're here to live like Indians in a place that happens to be much nicer than India. And I mean, have you been to Melbourne lately? Half the CBD is basically a chinese city - literally whole rows of shops without English on the signs or menu. And at universities, there will be countless people advertising rooms to rent for only chinese people or indian people etc. - none of these "assimilated" foreigners care about this but would have a fucking aneurysm if the reverse occurred.

but in any case, it's irrelevant. They could be more australian than anyone else, it wouldn't matter. Australia has too many people, full stop. There's nothing these immigrants are providing to the country that offsets the cost of chronic housing shortages and high rents that will never be "fixed" without the average working australian being forced to live in a shitty little shoebox apartment or in new "suburbs" hours out of the city. Not to mention the strain on the rest of Australia's physical and social infrastructure. But hey, at least Q3 GDP growth is going to be higher than it would have been, and that's what really matters.

 

[carrotsss]

personal preference i prefer apartments
you're exaggerating it quite a bit imo – are you afraid of australia's housing crisis turning into some coffin/micro apartment scenario ??

its a cultural thing, migrants tend to be more okay with living in small apartments than those born in Australia, personally I would hate to end up living in some tiny apartment for the rest of my life.

and it’s also just dystopian af to have people living in tiny little apartments in a country with literally 3 people per square kilometre

 

[carrotsss]

ohhh okay – when i think of living in like a house i think of like the "american dream" (which i guess you kinda live ?? idk)

and yeah it is quite annoying that so much space is here and yet it's all like uninhabitable

nah there’s plenty of inhabitable land people are just obsessed with living on the coast (esp in cities like Sydney and Melbourne where almost all immigrants move to)

 

[cosmo 2]

a country that derives a lot of its wealth from a fixed resource base like australia shouldnt be importing anyone

all immigration does is dilute that resource endowment per head and makes everybody poorer, and also strangulates the available land supply

a normal house on a normal block of land is no longer possible for people increasingly in cities anymore, tell me why anyone thinks that's a good thing

aus will never be competitive in virtually any other industry bc inputs such as wages, energy and land costs are way too high, its too distant from anywhere else and doesn't have scale

it has no advantages in any industry besides besides resources like the u.s.a or germany or china do, and whatever industries were here have been destroyed by neoliberalism

australia also has a fragile ecosystem that by some estimates has vastly exceeded its human carrying capacity, and even if it hasn't adding more people is still not desirable from an environmental point of view

high skilled migrants go to the u.s.a, germany, singapore and the u.k bc they offer way better opportunities than australia for very high earners, australia attracts ppl who want to do shitkicker jobs for much better pay than anywhere else bc aus wages in those jobs are inflated by the mining sector + generous wage award laws

if we're going to import anyone it would have to be be like how gulf arab states do it, immigrants have no rights, can never become residents and get kicked out eventually, but that would never be possible in a liberal democracy that allows women to vote

also white people should be allowed to have their own countries where they can be themselves, regardless of any other factor

 

[notme123]

this forum should be running parliament. aus would be a much better place

 

[SylviaB]

personal preference i prefer apartments
you're exaggerating it quite a bit imo – are you afraid of australia's housing crisis turning into some coffin/micro apartment scenario ??

If Australia's population continues growing at the current rate (not even accelerating, as it currently is), there's literally not enough houses for everyone and not enough space to build houses for everyone within reasonable distance to major cities.

There's literally no way to house the tends of millions of additional people who will end up living here other than living further and further away from city centres and/or ever increasing density in city centres

Living in houses is a part of australian culture. If we have to abandon this in order to accomodate foreigners, this represents an enormous cost to us - and what are we possibily getting in return for this cost? Higher quarterly GDP growth? And this says nothing of the fact that roads will become too congested to make diriving an option for most people, the cost of almost everything will be higher, there will be ever higher strain on social infrastructure and so on, not to mention the erosion of political equity of the current population the a continuing decline in social cohesion and cultural unity. Left wing Australians are always talking about how much they hate the US, and yet they are absolutely hell bent on bringing the ethnic conflict that is so characteristic of the modern US to Australia.

 

[SylviaB]

nah there’s plenty of inhabitable land people are just obsessed with living on the coast (esp in cities like Sydney and Melbourne where almost all immigrants move to)

Habitable

And the problem is, even if you keep migrants away from the cities, they have to go to already established localities, the government isn't going to build entire new towns in rural areas from nothing.

And not only are migrants not that interested in going to regional towns, the negative effect they will have there is much higher. A thousand immigrants moving to sydney will have a very minor impact. A thousands immigrants moving to a regional town can literally cause a housing crisis, a healthcare shortage etc. and materially change the culture and fabric of the town.

People will laugh at this stuff while defending non-white countries with strict immigration policies, strict religious and cultural repression etc.

 

[enoilgam]

nah there’s plenty of inhabitable land people are just obsessed with living on the coast (esp in cities like Sydney and Melbourne where almost all immigrants move to)

I agree, but in Australia it's houses first, infrastructure 20+ years later. I live in regional NSW and there is plenty of good land out here which could house people. However, the hospital isnt big enough and the train line is abysmal (35% longer than by road). Im all for more housing, as long as the development plan includes extra infrastructure to be delivered at the same time, not a promise of it at some point in the future.

People will laugh at this stuff while defending non-white countries with strict immigration policies, strict religious and cultural repression etc.

I never understand this logic, like you think Australia is racist try seeing the rest of the world. I don't mean boozing it up on a contiki tour with the aim of "finding yourself" or "gaining an immersive cultural experience" for insta likes. I mean, physically live and work in other countries for a few years. My grandfather lived in Germany before Australia and he says all the time, Germany was good for Germans and that's it. In Australia on the other hand, he was well looked after (with the exception of a number of redneck racists he worked with). Every time I hear someone say we are racist, my country, I respond with tell me a country that is less racist then Australia. It's usually crickets.

I mean, it is in our nature to be racist and tribalistic (not saying it is right to be racist, just that it is in our nature). I find that in Australia, we make more of an effort to try to be accommodating. Most countries dont bother.

 

[carrotsss]

I never understand this logic, like you think Australia is racist try seeing the rest of the world. I don't mean boozing it up on a contiki tour with the aim of "finding yourself" or "gaining an immersive cultural experience" for insta likes. I mean, physically live and work in other countries for a few years. My grandfather lived in Germany before Australia and he says all the time, Germany was good for Germans and that's it. In Australia on the other hand, he was well looked after (with the exception of a number of redneck racists he worked with). Every time I hear someone say we are racist, my country, I respond with tell me a country that is less racist then Australia. It's usually crickets.

I mean, it is in our nature to be racist and tribalistic (not saying it is right to be racist, just that it is in our nature). I find that in Australia, we make more of an effort to try to be accommodating. Most countries dont bother.

Adding onto this, I don't think that it's 'racist' for the people already here to want the best for us instead of mindlessly increasing the population

 

[cosmo 2]

the de centralisation of australia notion is an absurd pipe dream that will not die. it will never happen. australia's maritime cities are already practically globally uncompetitive due to their distance from the rest of the world and other factors, now imagine how economically unviable a large inland city in australia would be. what kind of economy would it or could it even have? absolutely none. there's a reason why no one ever tries it outside of artificial economies like canberra, because it will never work.

 

[SylviaB]

I never understand this logic, like you think Australia is racist try seeing the rest of the world. I don't mean boozing it up on a contiki tour with the aim of "finding yourself" or "gaining an immersive cultural experience" for insta likes. I mean, physically live and work in other countries for a few years. My grandfather lived in Germany before Australia and he says all the time, Germany was good for Germans and that's it. In Australia on the other hand, he was well looked after (with the exception of a number of redneck racists he worked with). Every time I hear someone say we are racist, my country, I respond with tell me a country that is less racist then Australia. It's usually crickets.

I mean, it is in our nature to be racist and tribalistic (not saying it is right to be racist, just that it is in our nature). I find that in Australia, we make more of an effort to try to be accommodating. Most countries dont bother.

I understand it perfectly well. These people by and large aren't pro "inclusion" ideologues - they support their race/culture having more wealth, power etc and will advocate for whatever they preceive to be in their group's interests. They jaren't hypocrites, just consistent but dishonest advocates for their tribe at the expense of their out group.

 

[cosmo 2]

 

[cosmo 2]

abos already get everything handed to them now. the voice will only increase the handout. defeating the voice won't somehow change the arrangement, just prevent it from being exacerbated somewhat. depending on what it will even f_cking do becuse i don't even know if its own framers do.

no one in govt, lnp or alp, have any intention of revoking the handout to abos, just stopping it from growing a bit with the voice. it will inevitably grow later under other legislative arrangements regardless of the govt in power and regardless of whether the voice gets in or not. it has for the last 20 years and will continue to do so the next 20 years.

 

[SylviaB]

I think it will be used to justify all kinds of stuff like renaming of places, increased requirement of aboriginal consultants to be paid to do various kinds of activities like farming, mining, construction etc, increased aboriginal cultural training for most professions and public sector jobs. Obviously nothing that will fundamentally reduce aboriginal deprivation but just stuff like this that will be costly and/or annoying for a lot of people.

 

[cosmo 2]

very possible itll be very annoying , and honestly that might be a good thing, if they really start trying to rename cities etc it could backfire and wake people up faster, we only have a limited window for that to happen

i maintain voice or no australia day is cooked, probably will be changed by 2030 or so

LNP is cooked too: https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...s-gen-z-reshape-politics-20230628-p5dk2y.html

the new 'conservative' party of australia will consist of some weird ass coalition between indians/ethnic strivers and a few middle class whites. itll be a big australia party, massively pro-migration, neo-liberal, pro-abo and anti-white. not much different from the LNP now except more explicitly oriented to ethnics and indians, so a lot of indian lobby stuff, handouts to india, taking sides in the PAK-Indian rivalry similar to Israel-Palestine