A few queries on Spartan Society (1 Viewer)

[green_appletini]

Hey guys, i'm a bit confused about a few things concerning Sparta. So it'd be great if anyone can help! (Some of my notes are sooo simplfied from some lectures that i don't really know what i'm saying...)

1. I've written: "Sparta- no walls. Thucydides said it was a sophisticated city state" --> but some websites say they had walls, others say there's no archaeological evidence of it what so ever, and some say that they had walls in late 4th century BC (what's late 4th century BC?? is that 300BC or what?). So any of you guys know what i'm talking about? (cos i don't!! haha) I thought my notes meant that Thucydides said Sparta had no walls and that shows it was a sophisticated polis..?

2. If a questions asks to evaluate the Spartan govt. and to say which party was the most powerful, would u guys pick gerousia or ehors? I remember at the beginning of the year i wrote an essay on it and i picked ephors, but then my teacher said it was gerousia (and i didn't end up correcting the essay and it's now lost..so what do u guys think?) Just that i have notes saying that Aristotle says the ephors rose to power by late 5-4th century BC and even had the power to dismiss the King (but i have no idea where the source of this info came from..they're from my class notes). So what do you guys think?

3. name 2 Roles of Spartan Women: apart from child bearing..i'm not sure if it's correct for me to say that their 2nd role in society is to reinforce the idea for the Spartan men of bravery/sacrificing for the state?

4. Ecclesia--> is it true they had no freedom of speech and that all they did was agree/disagree with proposals (but in the end, the gerousia had the right to veto any of their decisions anyway?)

5. Spartan Army--> if you were asked to talk about them, how would you go about doing it? I was thinking of briefly mentioning the agoge and how it ensured good hoplite infantry and stuff, then i might talk about the phalanx...but what else? Maybe the whole long hair, red cloak thing? And also, my notes say that 1 king lead the war while one stayed in Sparta, can anyone back me up on that? And my notes also say that the king sacrificed a she-goat and people played flutes and stuff while they fought.

6. Is the agoge attributed to Lycurgus by Plutarch? Plutarch talks about it, but he doesn't say whether it existed before Lycurgus or not..

Thanks guys! it'd be great if anyone can help. I just don't trust my notes...but they've been in my book all year so i don't think they're wrong, but i just don't have sources to back them up!

-marilia- xoxo

 

[mizz_smee]

i thought they had a natural barrier against there enemies
the mountains etc. and maybe Thucydides said it was a sophisticated city state
because it chose to settle in this area?!?!

i would say that there role was to re-inforce bravery to thier men
they took care of the home and day to day things while men focused on training.

Ecclesia--> is it true they had no freedom of speech and that all they did was agree/disagree with proposals (but in the end, the gerousia had the right to veto any of their decisions anyway?)
Yes that is true, they simple clapped when they agreed with something
(i can't remember the fancy word for it)
and that is how it passed
the Gerousia had no obligation to listen to wat they said
and could chuck away any of their decisions.

Army - one king went to war and two ephors accompaied to keep and eye on him it was so that both kings were not murdered and there was one centralised leader of the group (if there were two telling the army to do different things they would not know who to follow), the helot were the lightly armed troops and just how society and schooling was based entirely around the military.

i haven't really studied for Sparta yet so im not that big of a help but im sure someone will!

 

[green_appletini]

thanks for the help
and the fancy word for clapping...i was told to use "acclamation", so i think it's that? not sure if that's the word you're looking for~

-marilia- xoxo

 

[The Bograt]

1. Sparta did not have walls (apart from the mountain barrier)
They believed their hoplites were the city's 'walls'

2. Gerousia had the most power, it also included the kings. They had one of the most important roes in the running of society. They were important leaders, and like the Ephors had powers in over ruling the assembly and could be part of court cases to do with the Kings.

3. Spartan women (apart from the stuff already said) were in charge of the household when the men were at war (which was often). They were also keen horse breeders and did that in their spare time. They did not do labourous tasks, that was left up to the helots (its worth mentioning this).

4. Already been covered sufficiently

5. It is worth mentioning:
- The Agoge
- The fact that it produced superior warriors that were courageous and hardened. They were known throughout the world as the best soldiers.
- The phalanx, they used it very effectively, especially in the period of 'phalanx warfare' where it was phalanx vs phalanx
- In the Persian wars they were used on the far right side of the phalanx, since that was the side that was not covered by the next persons shield. This shows their bravery.
- They would sacrifice animals when they went into enemy territory (bad omen -> turn back) and also right before a battle.
- Yes, one king went into battle, backed by the ephors. I think the king that went was decided by the ekklesia (not sure though)
- Religion overpowered military (seen at Marathon, though disputed they used religious festival as excuse)

6. I think I already told you everything I know, but ill see what else I can find

 

[green_appletini]

thanks guys for all the help!!

-marilia- xoxo

 

[trekkie]

The original towns in laconia that were established by the Dorians didnt have walls because lycurgus believed that the hoplites were the only wall that they needed, but archaeologists have found that some of the major centres in Messenia had walls, Spartans just couldnt be bothered tearing them down when they conquered Messenia.

As for the roles of Spartan women you could say that they were to produce strong and healthy children, reinforce sparta's military code, they managed the kleros because the men were always in the agelai barracks, syssition or on campaign and they could participate in sporting events, as seen by the Princess Kyniska whipping butt at the olympic chariot races. But you shouldnt just focus on the Spartiate women unless the questions asks you to, remember to mention the roles of helot women (nurse maids, domestic servants etc) and the periokoi.

Hope thats of some help

 

[matt_a]

Remember the Spartan myth as well. I found a good quote.

"In war, the Spartans do not ask how many, but where are they"
-Agis

 

[foxster]

agoge

dunno if the agoge is attributed to lycurgus-but:

military changes in Sparta-could have been a result of either:

• when they suffered crushing defeat by Argon in 699
• or Messenian revolt

not sure if that will help u

 

[Eman Resu]

Along with previous information...
I think women also had a prominent role in the education of their kids age 0-7, where they taught them how to talk, proper social interaction and behaviour, personal care and an understanding of Spartan society.
It makes sense because in these 7 years they went from any old baby to a kid getting ready to enter a 23 year education system with a notorious drop out (death rate) of hmmm i think it was 80%, im not quite sure (should hav wrote it down) but i remember it was a crazy figure quoted by probably plutarch.
Also, more elderly women taught the girls in the population, how to run the household and such.