A Question of Christian Theology (2 Viewers)

[dieburndie]

Teclis, any reason you ignored my last reply on inherent morality/immorality in humans?

 

[ad infinitum]

You know, telling people that they're confused isn't an argument... that's just called being either a) a intellectual moron... b) a dickhead... c) a troll (wait... are you a troll??? Because If so I'm quite happy to accept being Rickrolled and defeat here)

In my eyes, you are equal with those that believe in astrology, Zeus and a living Elvis. There is no way to argue with your type; and hence you must be treated akin to a dog; told no! bad dog! no!

Why am I confused. Enlighten me O great one to the TRUE meaning of the Bible.

The Bible was an early attempt at explaining the world around us. It is a failed attempt. It is to be discarded to Mythos; with the likes of Baal, Athena and every other God.

No... Grace is beautiful.

No. Bad!

I think It's actually pretty easy to understand. God exists in three parts, wholly the same, yet seperate. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Yes Jesus died... to deny his existence or his death on a cross is intellectual folly. And like I said in an earlier post... It was horrible and I am so immensely grateful for the fact that he chose to suffer that instead of me. That by Grace alone I am able to be saved. I am sure that the people in war who were saved by commrades who died to save them... such as men jumping on grenades... or anyone else who was saved by someone elses sacrifice for that matter... would find the fact that you find someone choosing to be sacrificed in the place of many disgusting... disgusting.

You say you don't know the mind of god. But righht here you explicity claim that you know that nature of God, How on earth do you support these bizarre claims about God being '3 separate but not separate parts'. I didn't ask Jesus to die for me, If I was present at the time I would have done all I could to stop the torture of an innocent person, By what right does he 'die' for my sins? Nauseating stuff.

Time, date, place... where did I claim that. Point it out to me. I'll take it back right now. I've never claim to know the mind of God... I only know what the Bible says... not holding a theology degree I'm not always right about the historical/cultural context as well as not being able to read New Testament Greek and a slight lack of compatability between English and Greek... I have been on occasion, wrong. I just believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. And that you can learn about the best way to live and how to be saved through it.

You have constantly claimed to be privy to facts about a God which you could not possibly know; i.e What books he wrote, that he is '3 parts', that Jesus was his son (or him?). Furthermore by you being a Christian implies that you Know that your God is the correct one (Islam? Judaism? Hinduism? ad infinitum)....
No! Bad!

My evidence, as I have stated again and again... We know Historical facts about Jesus. These match up with what is in the New Testament. As a set of accounts of Jesus life and ministry the 4 Gospels stack up like a truthful account that has not been doctored.

'Historical facts' do not include the delusions of the indoctrinated and their pathetic fabrications. You do relize when the New Testament was written and by who and for what purpose...it was of course doctored to and 'stack up'....you ignorance is astounding....stop reading books written by Christians for Christians to Confirm Christians.

............................................................:mad1:

I'm talking about taking a passage out of context from within the Bible. Albert Einstein said "God does not play dice", therefore he believes in God... are you smarter than Albert Einstein? See what I did there... I took Einstein out of context and misrepresented what he believes... If you understand that he's talking about popular ideas on quantam physics, you wouldn't use the quote in that way.

Einstein definitely wasn't a Christian...
How do you know what parts in the bible are the good parts, on what criteria do you pick and chose if the bible is meant to be the fundamental criteria. You should probably look up the word 'evolution'.

You know I'm able to be friends with most of the Atheists around me... they are tolerant of my beliefs in the true sense of the word... we agree to disagree...

You agree to let them go to hell? Some friend...

I'd love to take you through what you believe are the Bible's contradictions... but I'm afraid you'd just throw the answers back without looking and say "babble".
This however is not even remotely a contradiction.

Its quite sad that your defending the bible. A baby can point out how absurd it is. No! Bad Dog! No!

Of course I'm not going to talk to anyone who doesn't want to listen. But sorry, If your or my Children ask me a question I'm going to answer it. Granted I'll show them my evidence as well...

You will indoctrinate your Children....great what a surprise....
Will you circumsize them as well? When do they get to decide about that? Nauseating.

This is the most stupid thing you've said so far. Australia is multicultural. I could have just as easily been born to Atheistic, Hindu, Muslim or Christian families. I think about 40% of Australians say they are "Christian" and maybe 5 - 10% are bible believing evangelical Christians, the rest being Christmas, Easter, Wedding, Funeral and christening Christians... or some degree thereof

And what does this say about the probability of your specific believes being true? Pathetic.....

Yes because in many cases, Children of Christian parents go "why on earth am I doing this? This is all i know, how do I know it is right?" And a lot of us go searching. Some choose to reject their faith, others like me choose to embrace it as their own. Granted a lot of them look at rather pathetic evidence that is biased one way or the other. I started with the origin of species, Nietzsche and the Bible... and went from there. What have you read on the topic?

I can guarantee you my understanding of religion, philosophy, epistemology, ontology and science is far more sophisticated than your own. You read the Origins of Species? clap clap well you obviously didn't assimilate a word.

There is no concrete proof (such as 1 + 1 = 2) for the existence of God. But neither is there concrete proof against. One can look at the Universe and existence and the holes in science and philosophy and our understanding of said universe and come to one of 2 conclusion. This is all that we are. This is not all that we are. The second is the most basic article of faith.

There is no concrete proof for against Zeus, against Baal, against invisible teapots. Well done, way to repeat the most boring and pathetic of straw man arguments against Atheism. Embarrassing really.

Who are you, really? And why are you here? You claim to know the working of the Universe so much so that your conclusion of the Universe is right and mine is wrong... back it up! Go on, show me Oh mighty one why your conclusion is so superior!

YOU are the one who claims to know these facts (i.e God Dun Itz). I simply point out how absurd, stupid and obviously fabricated your claims are.

How old are you? 142?

You actually haven't refuted anything. You've just sat on your perceived high horse and gone "NA NA NA NA NA You're WRONG! You're SOOOOO WRONG. HA HA HA I'm so smart and you're so dumb..."

evidence... now.

You haven't established anything to refute. What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. You are wrong. Bad Dog!

So you're on an Atheistic evangelistic crusade now? But I thought spreading your ideas to those who don't want to is immoral? Well at least that's the impression you give.

I an intellectually honest person and must hence point out to idiots that they are indeed idiots.

I'm still waiting on an adult argument from you...

Against an invisible sky daddy? How about...hmm.....Theres no good reason to believe in one.....the burden of proof is on you.....your quite slow at this aren't you..

Simple. Disprove that Jesus did what the Bible says he did. I've already said that.

LOL and how would I disprove this! How sad that you evade my question. How would I prove this. What evidence would you except?

Christianity is based on Historical events. Without which, all is meaningless... and I can have all the premarital orgies I want and get as pissed as I want whenever I want

Wow just wow. No! Just no. Don't assert silly things and expect people to take your silly rants seriously. You may have just said 'The Matrix is is based on Historical events. Without which, all is meaningless....and I can have all the premarital orgies I want and get pissed as I want whenever I want.

Nothing you say is clever or new, nothing you say hasn't been conclusively refuted a thousand times. All your responses are so predictable; you have been sold the exact same dogma and the exact same way to defend it as all the others, and it comes out like clockwork.

How about, for 5 minutes, you imagine that God does not exist and that Christianity is a cult like the thousands of other 'true' religions.

 

[Iron]

Please explain why humans deserve an eternity of immense suffering for simply existing.

Youd have to say that despite having all our needs provided for and our close relationship with our maker, thru our free will we chose to not be content with this state of paradise. Rather we chose to have knowledge of good and evil, with a deluded view of obtaining a power to rival that of the maker's.

Whether this choice to deliberately part from God's company was inevitable or not is, imo, too complicated to attempt to answer. God has immense respect for our freedom and the choice to seek and follow Him is always a positive one which is essentially unaffected by external realities.

But the highest calling of every man is to seek and know Christ. The creation of all of us holds this seed at its core. To be reunited with the Father is His greatest wish for us, as demonstrated by Christ's sacrifice. You see, death and suffering is not of God. There was never any intention that we should perish at all in this world. But the choice of death - the choice to reject the Life that is the Creator- holds the curse of mortality. This is because evil is ultimately weaker than good; it cannot go on forever - it must perish and it will perish. Death is Satan's price for our vain, lustful self-delusions - not God's. All He wants is for you to come back to Him and choose the Life and Truth that we rejected

 

[Teclis]

Teclis, any reason you ignored my last reply on inherent morality/immorality in humans?

Qua? Which post sorry... I though i got them all in one of my many... many... MANY large posts.

 

[Lukybear]

youd have to say that despite having all our needs provided for and our close relationship with our maker, thru our free will we chose to not be content with this state of paradise. Rather we chose to have knowledge of good and evil, with a deluded view of obtaining a power to rival that of the maker's.

Whether this choice to deliberately part from god's company was inevitable or not is, imo, too complicated to attempt to answer. God has immense respect for our freedom and the choice to seek and follow him is always a positive one which is essentially unaffected by external realities.

But the highest calling of every man is to seek and know christ. The creation of all of us holds this seed at its core. To be reunited with the father is his greatest wish for us, as demonstrated by christ's sacrifice. You see, death and suffering is not of god. There was never any intention that we should perish at all in this world. But the choice of death - the choice to reject the life that is the creator- holds the curse of mortality. This is because evil is ultimately weaker than good; it cannot go on forever - it must perish and it will perish. Death is satan's price for our vain, lustful self-delusions - not god's. All he wants is for you to come back to him and choose the life and truth that we rejected

+1

 

[anom1ly]

could god heat up a burito so hot that even he could not eat it?

 

[Tully B.]

I think It's actually pretty easy to understand. God exists in three parts, wholly the same, yet seperate. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Please explain to me the Trinity, because I have never been able to understand it. Whenever I ask someone, it's always like:
Them: "well, ya see, it's like this: God is three but he is one."
Me: "So he's three?"
Them: "Yup. And one?"
Me: "So does that mean God sent himself to die on the cross?"
Them: "No, the Father sent the son"
Me: "But they're both God?"
Them: "Yup"
Me: "So 1 God + 1 God = 2 Gods"
Them: "No. Father + Son + Spirit = 1 God"
Me: "?????"

Simple. Disprove that Jesus did what the Bible says he did. I've already said that. Christianity is based on Historical events. Without which, all is meaningless... and I can have all the premarital orgies I want and get as pissed as I want whenever I want

Christianity isn't based on historical events, it's based on the existence of God. Jesus comes and all that other stuff comes afterwards. Now, the existence of God cannot be proven through events that might of happened over 2000 years ago.

Say I have little faith in the historians. Why not go further and say that I don't believe with 100% certainty of the events that happened over 50 years ago. Now, that would make me a paranoid kind of guy, but would it make me the kind of guy who deserves to go to hell more than all others? Because really, it wouldn't be my sin that would be sending me to hell, rather my paranoia and skepticism.

Youd have to say that despite having all our needs provided for and our close relationship with our maker, thru our free will we chose to not be content with this state of paradise. Rather we chose to have knowledge of good and evil, with a deluded view of obtaining a power to rival that of the maker's.

Whether this choice to deliberately part from God's company was inevitable or not is, imo, too complicated to attempt to answer. God has immense respect for our freedom and the choice to seek and follow Him is always a positive one which is essentially unaffected by external realities.

But the highest calling of every man is to seek and know Christ. The creation of all of us holds this seed at its core. To be reunited with the Father is His greatest wish for us, as demonstrated by Christ's sacrifice. You see, death and suffering is not of God. There was never any intention that we should perish at all in this world. But the choice of death - the choice to reject the Life that is the Creator- holds the curse of mortality. This is because evil is ultimately weaker than good; it cannot go on forever - it must perish and it will perish. Death is Satan's price for our vain, lustful self-delusions - not God's. All He wants is for you to come back to Him and choose the Life and Truth that we rejected

Sounds like something out of Lord of the Rings, to be quite honest.

 

[Jeee]

Hey, I have difficulty understanding, how God, almighty, ubiquitious etc is also human (Jesus). You are essentially worshipping a human being who ate, slept, excreted etc - how does imperfect man pose as perfect God?

Just wanted to know...feel free to answer my query.

 

[Teclis]

In my eyes, you are equal with those that believe in astrology, Zeus and a living Elvis. There is no way to argue with your type; and hence you must be treated akin to a dog; told no! bad dog! no!

For someone who claims to be academic, this is the WORST kind of mindset you can have.

Well that makes sense... just as I thought, you're intolerant and egotistical. And every post you've made on this forum proves the point. You don't only think you're better than me... but smarter than everyone and highly enlightened! Oh my... you're attempting to be Richard Dawkins! :O

The Bible was an early attempt at explaining the world around us. It is a failed attempt. It is to be discarded to Mythos; with the likes of Baal, Athena and every other God.

Question: Have you read it? Cover to cover? I'm hoping so... firstly because If you did you'd understand that the Genesis creation story is the only "explaining" in the book. And it is poetry in Hebrew... not meant to be a Scientific description. It's entire point being that God created the Universe. The rest of the Old Testament is a Historical record of the Israelites and their interaction with God.

No. Bad!

Is this what you spend your time doing? I would HATE to be your children, or your friend even. If at the mention of God you call someone a dog. That's a GREAT way to get yourself smashed in the face... or are you too chicken to actually say it to someones face?

You say you don't know the mind of god. But righht here you explicity claim that you know that nature of God, How on earth do you support these bizarre claims about God being '3 separate but not separate parts'.

I just explained that twice... If you don't get it, and it really is simple, then here is one of the keys of reasoned argument. Know the perspective of the opposite side, and try and see it from their perspective. On my side of the fence, where God exists, and the Bible is his word, the Bible makes reference to it... therefore I believe it (but don't pretend that I understand how it works)

I didn't ask Jesus to die for me, If I was present at the time I would have done all I could to stop the torture of an innocent person, By what right does he 'die' for my sins? Nauseating stuff.

Furthermore by you being a Christian implies that you Know that your God is the correct one (Islam? Judaism? Hinduism? ad infinitum)....
No! Bad!

Well Hinduism... where all Gods are acceptable... even the ones that say there is only one God... is self Contradictory pluralism. Judaism points towards the Messiah-Christ still coming. Only problem with that, is if you look at ALL the prophecies of the Old Testament, Jesus ticks ALL the boxes. Islam bases its knowledge of God from Muhammed's interactions with him in a cave. Christianity bases itself on real life events involving real people... and without those events it falls apart.

'Historical facts' do not include the delusions of the indoctrinated and their pathetic fabrications. You do relize when the New Testament was written and by who and for what purpose...it was of course doctored to and 'stack up'....you ignorance is astounding....stop reading books written by Christians for Christians to Confirm Christians.

As a Historical source... you're telling me to ignore the Criterion of Coherance, the Criterion of dissimilarity, the Criterion of Archaic style, the criterion of embarrassment, the criterion of memorability and the criterion of date (particularly in reference to what scholars call source Q, as well as the Oral tradition of the time and the relatively short time between Jesus' death and the writing of the Gospels?

And here's a lovely list of books I've read on the topic... most of them of the scholarly middle (a couple of sceptics and a couple of apologists too). I'd say it's a pretty balanced and comprehensive list, wouldn't you?

Barbara Thiering - Jesus the man
George A. Wells - The Jesus Legend
Gerd Ludemann - Jesus after two thousand years: What he really said and did.
Gary Habermas - The Historical Jesus
Raymond Brown - The Death of the Messiah (two volumes)
Marcus J. Borg - Jesus: A New Vision
James Charlesworth - Jesus' Jewishness
John Dominic Crossan - The Historical Jesus
Richard Horsley - Archaeology, History and Society in Galilee
John Kloppenborg Verbin - Excavating Q
Birger Gerhardsson - The Reliability of the Gospel Tradition
Sean Freyne - Galilee and the Gospel
Morna D. Hooker - The Signs of a prophet
Christopher Tucket - Q and the History of early Christianity

Einstein definitely wasn't a Christian...
How do you know what parts in the bible are the good parts, on what criteria do you pick and chose if the bible is meant to be the fundamental criteria. You should probably look up the word 'evolution'.

What on EARTH are you talking about? You don't pick parts out... that's what I'm getting at. It has to be taken in context as a whole.

Evolution - any process of formation or growth; development... and? I did do biology...

You agree to let them go to hell? Some friend...

......... when they ask me not to share my beliefs with them, I don't. I'm not going to alienate them as a friend by shoving it down their throats.

Its quite sad that your defending the bible. A baby can point out how absurd it is. No! Bad Dog! No!

You know calling me a dog isn't aggravating... it just makes you look like a tool

You will indoctrinate your Children....great what a surprise....
Will you circumsize them as well? When do they get to decide about that? Nauseating.

1) Circumsicion is irrelevant to Christians... that's Jews... so wtf?
2) Indoctrination assumes I force my beliefs on them. If my children don't want to go to Church, I'll be cut, but I'm not going to make them. I'll even pay for a babysitter to come when I go to church myself to look after them. Same as my parents did. I'm not going to be Ned Flanders and read them Christian bedtime stories every night and refuse to allow them to see anything other than Christian cartoons til they're 10. That's just retarded parenting.

And what does this say about the probability of your specific believes being true? Pathetic.....

pretty sure it is irrelevant and says nothing...

I can guarantee you my understanding of religion, philosophy, epistemology, ontology and science is far more sophisticated than your own. You read the Origins of Species? clap clap well you obviously didn't assimilate a word.

Says you... what proof do we have of this? I'm pretty sure saying "No bad dog" isn't proof of anything. This isn't the only time you've used this line... yet you haven't once proven your GREAT knowledge. Why don't you share some of your wisdom then rather that just saying "this has been conclusively refuted"... give us some real references to scholarly works. Philosophical, scientific... while you're at it, paraphrase/summarise it for the lamans and the dogs.

I said I STARTED with the Origin of Species... usually a good idea to start with the most influential work on the topic.

There is no concrete proof for against Zeus, against Baal, against invisible teapots. Well done, way to repeat the most boring and pathetic of straw man arguments against Atheism. Embarrassing really.

You freaking Straw manned the use of the straw man argument. The existence of the argument between us is proof enough of my point, let alone the existence of religion in the world... let alone philosophy.

You haven't established anything to refute. What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. You are wrong. Bad Dog!

Because I don't agree that that is evidence, I don't have to refute it. In fact I don't have to even refute it as a source... therefore I can always win an argument. This is SUCH a great way to get my point across... I'm so happy

LOL and how would I disprove this! How sad that you evade my question. How would I prove this. What evidence would you except?

WTF? How did I evade the question.

Q: What information would convince you to reject Christianity and the existence of a God?

A: Disprove that Jesus did what the Bible says he did.

Show me that the Gospels are a misrepresentation, show me that the Bible was doctored, show me that Jesus didn't exist, show me that the Bible was changed along the way to suit the purposes of the Churches leaders... anything along those lines

Wow just wow. No! Just no. Don't assert silly things and expect people to take your silly rants seriously. You may have just said 'The Matrix is is based on Historical events. Without which, all is meaningless....and I can have all the premarital orgies I want and get pissed as I want whenever I want.

So Christianity ISN'T based on the claim that 2000 years ago existed a man named Yeshua ben Yosef, who performed miracles and claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah prophesised by the Israelites for more than a thousand years. He didn't die on a cross... etc etc etc. If Jesus didn't perform the miracles he did, say the things he did, do the things he did... then Christianity is a lie.

Nothing you say is clever or new, nothing you say hasn't been conclusively refuted a thousand times. All your responses are so predictable; you have been sold the exact same dogma and the exact same way to defend it as all the others, and it comes out like clockwork.

Ok... I went and bothered to learn these things for myself. Read intellectual and scholarly articles from all sides on many of the subjects. If everything I've said has been refuted a thousand times... show me where... show me PLEASE.

How about, for 5 minutes, you imagine that God does not exist and that Christianity is a cult like the thousands of other 'true' religions.

Why on Earth do you think I did all that research???????????? Read all those incredibly taxing books?

 

[Teclis]

could god heat up a burito so hot that even he could not eat it?

(Yes I know this isn't a serious question) The beauty of Omnipotency is that he could it... then eat it anyways

Hey, I have difficulty understanding, how God, almighty, ubiquitious etc is also human (Jesus). You are essentially worshipping a human being who ate, slept, excreted etc - how does imperfect man pose as perfect God?

Just wanted to know...feel free to answer my query.

Well Jesus wasn't an imperfect man. He was fully man, and fully God... I'm not sure how it works... It's one of those things that makes me go "ok I'll accept it, but expect a question when i get to heaven... because it don't make sense!"

Please explain to me the Trinity, because I have never been able to understand it. Whenever I ask someone, it's always like:
Them: "well, ya see, it's like this: God is three but he is one."
Me: "So he's three?"
Them: "Yup. And one?"
Me: "So does that mean God sent himself to die on the cross?"
Them: "No, the Father sent the son"
Me: "But they're both God?"
Them: "Yup"
Me: "So 1 God + 1 God = 2 Gods"
Them: "No. Father + Son + Spirit = 1 God"
Me: "?????"

I think that the best way to think of it is like a Venn Diagram... three circles overlapping each other. Yes God sent himself, as Jesus, to die. After Jesus' ascension, God, sent himself to earth, as the Holy Spirit. Fully whole fully seperate. I dunno, that just makes sense to me, In a twisted paraconsistent way.

Remember that you're talking about a God who is everywhere at once (omnipresent), and probably exists outside spacetime, the Universe, logical reason and boundaries

Christianity isn't based on historical events, it's based on the existence of God. Jesus comes and all that other stuff comes afterwards. Now, the existence of God cannot be proven through events that might of happened over 2000 years ago.

Sorry let me rephrase. It falls apart at a fundamental level. I think if you had that problem then you would probably have issues with alot of logical argument based on the past...

And where on earth did the Lord of the Rings thing come from?

 

[Tully B.]

I think that the best way to think of it is like a Venn Diagram... three circles overlapping each other. Yes God sent himself, as Jesus, to die. After Jesus' ascension, God, sent himself to earth, as the Holy Spirit. Fully whole fully seperate. I dunno, that just makes sense to me, In a twisted paraconsistent way.

It has always seemed to me like a concept which people pretend to understand, so they can disregard the idea that Christianity may just be a polytheistic religion.

What about when Jesus is praying to God, asking him favors etc.? Isn't he praying to himself? Then of course, you'll reply with "NO, he's praying to GOD!", and you'll nod your head knowingly, while I sit here without ever having received a good explanation for the Trinity EVER - with people instead thinking that it will suffice just telling me to accept the fact that God is three is one is three is one is three is one.

Sorry let me rephrase. It falls apart at a fundamental level. I think if you had that problem then you would probably have issues with alot of logical argument based on the past...

That would be true - and that would make a very strange, exceedingly skeptical person - one who, because of this skepticism alone, would be sent to hell.



While I'm on the subject of hell, I'd just like to say that I don't think there is a single person in the history of mankind who deserves it. Some people MAY deserve to suffer for hundreds of years, but even a trillion years is a speck of dust in the eternal beach of hell (don't know where that analogy came from - hell would be nothing like a beach).

It is an unjust punishment for all, and one which Christians tend justify by saying "Well, yasee, Hell is just life away from God, and since you've rejected God, that's what you want anyway." But what you fail to mention is that "life away from God" is one your silly euphemisms for eternal pain and suffering.

Again, I'd like to say that a lack of belief in God should not constitute a rejection of him, especially since belief is not a choice.

 

[Iron]

Hey, I have difficulty understanding, how God, almighty, ubiquitious etc is also human (Jesus). You are essentially worshipping a human being who ate, slept, excreted etc - how does imperfect man pose as perfect God?

Just wanted to know...feel free to answer my query.

He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary who was the only human since Adam and Eve free of original sin.

 

[xeuyrawp]

1) Around AD 55

Edit: I personally would never cite cite anything to support historicity of the NT. You're really on an uphill battle then, so it's better to just avoid it, imo.

 

[ad infinitum]

For someone who claims to be academic, this is the WORST kind of mindset you can have.

But you are equal with those that believe in Zeus, The Matrix, Baal, etc....

Well that makes sense... just as I thought, you're intolerant and egotistical. And every post you've made on this forum proves the point. You don't only think you're better than me... but smarter than everyone and highly enlightened! Oh my... you're attempting to be Richard Dawkins! :O

I'm egotistical because I don't believe in Zeus and fairies and Santa Claus?
Your under a delusion, sorry to destroy your reality.

Question: Have you read it? Cover to cover? I'm hoping so... firstly because If you did you'd understand that the Genesis creation story is the only "explaining" in the book. And it is poetry in Hebrew... not meant to be a Scientific description. It's entire point being that God created the Universe. The rest of the Old Testament is a Historical record of the Israelites and their interaction with God.

Sorry I must have mistaken this Beautiful Poetry! for something more sinister:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Yes how beautiful is the word of God!

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

This must be the word of God!

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14) As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.




God must also love to contradict himself; what poetry!!!!
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39

Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23
66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36
67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6
68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16
69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39
70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20
72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10
74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26
75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38
76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15
77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40
78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18
80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7
81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1
82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10
83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1
84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5
85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22
88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49
89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51
91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14
92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8
93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32
95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2
96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16
97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5
99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29
100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8
101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1
102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5
103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5
104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12
105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4
106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25
107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44

Speculative Doctrines

108. Christ is equal with God
John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
Christ is not equal with God
John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5
110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Matt 5:17-19
111. Christ's mission was peace
Luke 2:13,14
Christ's mission was not peace
Matt 10:34
112. Christ received not testimony from man
John 5:33,34
Christ did receive testimony from man
John 15:27
113. Christ's witness of himself is true.
John 8:18,14
Christ's witness of himself is not true.
John 5:31
114. Christ laid down his life for his friends
John 15:13/ John 10:11
Christ laid down his life for his enemies
Rom 5:10
115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 19:7
It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 18:31
116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Ex 20:5
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Ezek 18:20
117. Man is justified by faith alone
Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone
James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13
118. It is impossible to fall from grace
John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39
It is possible to fall from grace
Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21
119. No man is without sin
1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10
Christians are sinless
1 John 3: 9,6,8
120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16
There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14
121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world
Prov 11:31
Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world
Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10
122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind
Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20
Endless misery the portion of all mankind
Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2
123. The Earth is to be destroyed
2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11
The Earth is never to be destroyed
Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4
124. No evil shall happen to the godly
Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13
Evil does happen to the godly
Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7
125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly
Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/
Job 42:12
Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly
Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17
126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing
Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/
Prov 15:6
Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward
Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/
Luke 6:24
127. The Christian yoke is easy
Matt 11:28,29,30
The Christian yoke is not easy
John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8
128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness
Gal 5:22
The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury
Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11
129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked
Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20
Longevity denied to the wicked
Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17
130. Poverty a blessing
Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5
Riches a blessing
Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12
Neither poverty nor riches a blessing
Prov 30:8,9
131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment
Prov 3:13,17
Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow
Eccl 1:17,18
132. A good name is a blessing
Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1
A good name is a curse
Luke 6:26
133. Laughter commended
Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15
Laughter condemned
Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4
134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness
Prov 22:15
There is no remedy for foolishness
Prov 27:22
135. A fool should be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:5
A fool should not be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:4
136. Temptation to be desired
James 1:2
Temptation not to be desired
Matt 6:13
137. Prophecy is sure
2 Pet 1:19
Prophecy is not sure
Jer 18:7-10
138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years
Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10
Man's life is but seventy years
Ps 90:10
139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast
Gen 9:2
The fear of man is not upon the lion
Prov 30:30
140. Miracles a proof of divine mission
Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31
Miracles not a proof of divine mission
Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19
141. Moses was a very meek man
Num 12:3
Moses was a very cruel man
Num 31:15,17
142. Elijah went up to heaven
2 Kings 2:11
None but Christ ever ascended into heaven
John 3:13
143. All scripture is inspired
2 Tim 3:16
Some scripture is not inspired
1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17

Is this what you spend your time doing? I would HATE to be your children, or your friend even. If at the mention of God you call someone a dog. That's a GREAT way to get yourself smashed in the face... or are you too chicken to actually say it to someones face?

A Christian would smash me in the face for calling his belief in god stupid??? Why am I not surprised, If they where in Government I am sure I would be put to death (that is after I was tortured and made to confess my blasphemy). Aren't you a nasty little bigot.

I just explained that twice... If you don't get it, and it really is simple, then here is one of the keys of reasoned argument. Know the perspective of the opposite side, and try and see it from their perspective. On my side of the fence, where God exists, and the Bible is his word, the Bible makes reference to it... therefore I believe it (but don't pretend that I understand how it works)

So If the bible is God's word (as you have just explicitly confessed) then you must take the above passages about slavery and murder as Gods word. Nauseating. But let me guess; I've taken it out of context!!! Your meant to ignore that part!!!! AS i said before; on what criteria to you pick and chose which parts are literal which parts are poetry, on which criteria, obviously it can't be on God's word (the bible) because thats what your picking apart.

Well Hinduism... where all Gods are acceptable... even the ones that say there is only one God... is self Contradictory pluralism. Judaism points towards the Messiah-Christ still coming. Only problem with that, is if you look at ALL the prophecies of the Old Testament, Jesus ticks ALL the boxes. Islam bases its knowledge of God from Muhammed's interactions with him in a cave. Christianity bases itself on real life events involving real people... and without those events it falls apart.

??there is no evidence for Jesus's miracles other than word of the bronze age sand people that wished to make him his God. The burden of proof is on you.

As a Historical source... you're telling me to ignore the Criterion of Coherance, the Criterion of dissimilarity, the Criterion of Archaic style, the criterion of embarrassment, the criterion of memorability and the criterion of date (particularly in reference to what scholars call source Q, as well as the Oral tradition of the time and the relatively short time between Jesus' death and the writing of the Gospels?

And here's a lovely list of books I've read on the topic... most of them of the scholarly middle (a couple of sceptics and a couple of apologists too). I'd say it's a pretty balanced and comprehensive list, wouldn't you?

Barbara Thiering - Jesus the man
George A. Wells - The Jesus Legend
Gerd Ludemann - Jesus after two thousand years: What he really said and did.
Gary Habermas - The Historical Jesus
Raymond Brown - The Death of the Messiah (two volumes)
Marcus J. Borg - Jesus: A New Vision
James Charlesworth - Jesus' Jewishness
John Dominic Crossan - The Historical Jesus
Richard Horsley - Archaeology, History and Society in Galilee
John Kloppenborg Verbin - Excavating Q
Birger Gerhardsson - The Reliability of the Gospel Tradition
Sean Freyne - Galilee and the Gospel
Morna D. Hooker - The Signs of a prophet
Christopher Tucket - Q and the History of early Christianity

hahaha books written by members of a cult find that the cult is the one truth!!!! I could site a thousand books that conclude the word of the Koran is the only truth...!!! Congrats man your such a clever lad!

What on EARTH are you talking about? You don't pick parts out... that's what I'm getting at. It has to be taken in context as a whole.

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Seems pretty clear to me....I by definition can't quote the whole bible, I have to take passages out of their contexts. But I can say that these very salient instructions in the bible.

......... when they ask me not to share my beliefs with them, I don't. I'm not going to alienate them as a friend by shoving it down their throats.

Your not a true Christian then...
f your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

1) Circumsicion is irrelevant to Christians... that's Jews... so wtf?
2) Indoctrination assumes I force my beliefs on them. If my children don't want to go to Church, I'll be cut, but I'm not going to make them. I'll even pay for a babysitter to come when I go to church myself to look after them. Same as my parents did. I'm not going to be Ned Flanders and read them Christian bedtime stories every night and refuse to allow them to see anything other than Christian cartoons til they're 10. That's just retarded parenting.

Ah but retarded parenting is Christian parenting.

Says you... what proof do we have of this? I'm pretty sure saying "No bad dog" isn't proof of anything. This isn't the only time you've used this line... yet you haven't once proven your GREAT knowledge. Why don't you share some of your wisdom then rather that just saying "this has been conclusively refuted"... give us some real references to scholarly works. Philosophical, scientific... while you're at it, paraphrase/summarise it for the lamans and the dogs.

I am sharing my wisdom..

I said I STARTED with the Origin of Species... usually a good idea to start with the most influential work on the topic.

So? You still obviously didn't assimilate a word.

You freaking Straw manned the use of the straw man argument. The existence of the argument between us is proof enough of my point, let alone the existence of religion in the world... let alone philosophy.

Wow your really thick...really thick..

Because I don't agree that that is evidence, I don't have to refute it. In fact I don't have to even refute it as a source... therefore I can always win an argument. This is SUCH a great way to get my point across... I'm so happy

Babbling again...

WTF? How did I evade the question.

Q: What information would convince you to reject Christianity and the existence of a God?

A: Disprove that Jesus did what the Bible says he did.

Show me that the Gospels are a misrepresentation, show me that the Bible was doctored, show me that Jesus didn't exist, show me that the Bible was changed along the way to suit the purposes of the Churches leaders... anything along those lines

hahaha you still evade the question...What proof would you ACCEPT? give me examples i.e The Shroud of Turin being found to be a pathetic fabrication (which it has been anyway).

So Christianity ISN'T based on the claim that 2000 years ago existed a man named Yeshua ben Yosef, who performed miracles and claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah prophesised by the Israelites for more than a thousand years. He didn't die on a cross... etc etc etc. If Jesus didn't perform the miracles he did, say the things he did, do the things he did... then Christianity is a lie.

There where many prophets....all under a delusion

Ok... I went and bothered to learn these things for myself. Read intellectual and scholarly articles from all sides on many of the subjects. If everything I've said has been refuted a thousand times... show me where... show me PLEASE.

Why on Earth do you think I did all that research???????????? Read all those incredibly taxing books?

Yes your meant to read stuff that opposes your view.

 

[xeuyrawp]

??there is no evidence for Jesus's miracles other than word of the bronze age sand people that wished to make him his God.

*iron age, urbanised people.

Not saying that really makes a difference --I think you'd find the proportion of nuts is the same really-- but you should at least get it right.

 

[Cookie182]

babble



Don't expect this sick notion of vicarious redemption though child sacrifice to make sense to anyone other than the utterly deluded.



You're the arrogant one: you proclaim to know the mind of god; you are the one who proclaims certainty. You are the one who belongs to a cult which has persecuted and converted anyone who dissents for a thousand years. No one will forgot what society was like when people like you where in charge (i.e the Inquisition). You are the bigot that presumes that you have a secret pact with 'god' and that anyone who dissents is sent to hell.


Nothing you have said could be described as 'reasoned' or 'researched'. You are a brain washed (obviously your parents are Christians and you have been taught like a good submissive prole) cultist in a long line of brainwashed cultists, and nothing about your particular cult is worthy of my refutation. You can submit and worship your master in private, but you must leave the rest of us out of it. I do not want to be a pet, but by all means put on your invisible gimp suit and be the plaything of your 'savior' but don't you dare push your grotesques, babyish rambling on the rest of us.

Quick induction-

Based on your venacular, your a Hitchens fan

 

[Cookie182]

I've been away for a while, certainly some interesting debate has been fostering, albeit away from the original question.

On that though, I know it's actually impossible to answer, even from a very reasoned theologian.

I guess it comes down to notion of whether you believe in a "soul". Even if you accept it's existence though, is it necessarily fixed and non-transferable/destructable? I know in much medieval literature souls were often "corrupted" or "sold", if not "destroyed". If someone was to do this, would this allow them to at least escape Hell?

Note to, many of the Christians on here seem to be arguing that "our insignificant view as a Human is irrelevant to the magnificence of God's plan and if he has decided we have an afterlife, it's final". Is this not though an imposition itself on our supposed "free-will"? Do we have to accept ultimately a celestrial form of totalitarianism?

...

All the questions that a theistic worldview brings up...and people think religion is meant to make things simple.

Simple IMO is knowing I share origins in with a long-dead common ancestor to other species and that when I die, like the billions of organisms that I have past before me, this occurs { }

T*o Pwar and Katie, you have convinced me whole-heartedly that theologians are rigorous academics, many whom upon the research I have done are quite often atheists- in essence, they all appear to be experts on the philosophy of a religion/s. My opinion had never been negative towards them in the beginning, just more one of skepticism influence by hardline biology phD's.

 

[Teclis]

hahaha books written by members of a cult find that the cult is the one truth!!!! I could site a thousand books that conclude the word of the Koran is the only truth...!!! Congrats man your such a clever lad!

MOST of those men and women AREN'T Christians... look them up. Go on... they're all highly respected academics...

 

[dieburndie]

Qua? Which post sorry... I though i got them all in one of my many... many... MANY large posts.

It doesn't seem as if you did.
Your post-

Are you telling me that the deeds that sexual desire and selfishness lead too aren't immoral. Rape, paedophilia, subjugation of women, theft, war over land and resources, the gap between rich and poor... need I go on?

And why women aren't as violent, they do commit violent acts. Such as murder...

Even If there wasn't religion, I still think you would have to look at human nature and see that while we have a capacity for immense good, If we are not told that things are wrong, our default position is "it feels good, therefore I'll do it"...

Sadly "religion" has a lot to answer for in terms of Morality. Any true Christian hates religion... It was the religous people who killed Jesus. Jesus went to the Prostitues, the tax collectors (traitors who stole from their fellow citizens to fund their oppressors), the broken people and said "You're sinners..." and they said "Yea I am... save me"
Then he went to the religious people... The ones who had it all together, who followed all the rules and said "You're sinners..." and they said "fuck you... why would you eat and talk with THOSE people! We don't have sex outside of marriage, we don't steal, we don't kill people... So we don't like you very much... so we're gunna kill you"

Religion vs. Redemption is one of the biggest problems in the Christian church. Religion is making a list of rules... "you have to do these 10 things to get into Heaven".. Redemption is Jesus saying on the cross "It is finished"... and it's all been done for us... so yea.

My reply-

I said they aren't necessarily immoral, meaning sexual desire and selfishness are entirely compatible with a moral position. They are also compatible with immoral acts, as in the examples you mentioned.

An extremely small minority frequently display violent tendencies. Do you honestly believe that the remainder are merely suppressing their violent urges?


To an extent that's true, but it is an oversimplification. Humans are capable of empathy, and acting upon hedonistic desires can be easily be limited to what doesn't cause harm to others.


What you've said here is mostly incoherent, and almost entirely irrelevant to the overall argument.

 

[Teclis]

It doesn't seem as if you did.
Your post-

My reply-

I thought I'd addressed that in one of my posts... I'll have a look through and see.

Quick induction-

Based on your venacular, your a Hitchens fan

Hitchens is a Dickwad... he's an angry, alcoholic ex-Trotskyist who supports the legalising of Marijuana, defends George Bush's Foreign Policy post 9/11 and doesn't attack criticisms of his arguments, but attempts to discredit the people making the criticisms...

He's a very smart man.... but he's a Dickhead.

Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett are much more worthy of attention as academics and thinkers... Richard Dawkins maybe, but I really think he takes the whole thing MUCH too personally, and a lot of Non-Christians agree.