Aboriginal children in care now exceeds stolen generations (3 Viewers)

[boris]

Seriously Lentern you nailed it but you aren't realising it. You acknowledged that we are providing support, but they aren't utilising it. Next step is working out how to make them utilise it.

 

[black_kat_meow]

I have on numerous occasions said what I think should be done and that it isn't as a quickfix because there is no quickfix. Opportunities are as plentiful as possible and as accesssible as possible and no judging from the sidelines if they opt not to take them straight away.

I believe this has already occured, and you can't stop people from JUDGING, that's up to the individual.
If they choose not to take the opportunties, and rather choose to whine about how we've wronged them, I WILL be judging them, as I will have no respect for them.

There is nothing more we can do until they decide to help themselves.

 

[katie tully]

Seriously Lentern you nailed it but you aren't realising it. You acknowledged that we are providing support, but they aren't utilising it. Next step is working out how to make them utilise it.

You can't make them utilise it, IT GOES AGAINST THEIR CIVIL LIBERTIES.

How dare you suggest we make them buy food with their welfare, instead of drugs!

 

[incentivation]

The only way you can help people, is to facilitate. Ultimately, people can only help themselves. So far this hasn't worked. Until they develop a desire or will to do so, they will dwindle at the bottom of the food chain.

Why should we apologise on behalf of another? We can be sorry for in a regretful sense, but apologising in a manner that implies responsibility is ridiculous.

Would the mother of Janine Balding for instance, have found any sense of healing through an apology from me, for the murder of her daughter?

Would the son of Mr Winter (a victim of Port Arthur) feel the power to move on if I made an apology for the murder of his father?

I doubt it very much.

In 1997, John Howard opened the Reconciliation Convention. In his speech he stated the following:
"Personally, I feel deep sorrow for those of my fellow Australians who suffered injustices under the practices of past generations towards indigenous people. Equally, I am sorry for the hurt and trauma many people here today may continue to feel as a consequence of those practices."

He may feel sorry for those affected, however he conveys it in a way that does not apportion guilt or responsibility.

For too long Abo Advocates have focused too intently on this symbolic rubbish to the detriment of the real issues. Poverty, education, parenting, alcohol and drug abuse, mismanaged resources. Change the focus, and change will result.

Here's Howard's speech in full. Full of sense if you ask me.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/IndigLRes/car/1997/4/pmspoken.html

 

[Lentern]

Seriously Lentern you nailed it but you aren't realising it. You acknowledged that we are providing support, but they aren't utilising it. Next step is working out how to make them utilise it.

Despite Katies crude attempt to be clever she isn't that far from the point. Now I'm all for wrapping in pink bows and offering a free sausage sizzle with every counselling session attended but if you push it upon them, insinuating that they are incapable of making a prudent decision that is when you get a Mugabe like backlash "why do you British think you so smart!"

 

[Lentern]

I believe this has already occured, and you can't stop people from JUDGING, that's up to the individual.
If they choose not to take the opportunties, and rather choose to whine about how we've wronged them, I WILL be judging them, as I will have no respect for them.

There is nothing more we can do until they decide to help themselves.

And you will be throwing petrol on the fire then complaining at how fiercely it burns you nong. You can't force people not to judge you are right, that is where the onus is on the individual to demonstrate some basic humanity.

 

[Lentern]

The only way you can help people, is to facilitate. Ultimately, people can only help themselves. So far this hasn't worked. Until they develop a desire or will to do so, they will dwindle at the bottom of the food chain.

Why should we apologise on behalf of another? We can be sorry for in a regretful sense, but apologising in a manner that implies responsibility is ridiculous.

Would the mother of Janine Balding for instance, have found any sense of healing through an apology from me, for the murder of her daughter?

Would the son of Mr Winter (a victim of Port Arthur) feel the power to move on if I made an apology for the murder of his father?

I doubt it very much.

In 1997, John Howard opened the Reconciliation Convention. In his speech he stated the following:
"Personally, I feel deep sorrow for those of my fellow Australians who suffered injustices under the practices of past generations towards indigenous people. Equally, I am sorry for the hurt and trauma many people here today may continue to feel as a consequence of those practices."

He may feel sorry for those affected, however he conveys it in a way that does not apportion guilt or responsibility.

For too long Abo Advocates have focused too intently on this symbolic rubbish to the detriment of the real issues. Poverty, education, parenting, alcohol and drug abuse, mismanaged resources. Change the focus, and change will result.

Here's Howard's speech in full. Full of sense if you ask me.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/IndigLRes/car/1997/4/pmspoken.html

First of all calling them "abo's" hardly implies you give a damn about whether anything improves. Symbols matter, did you not see the jubiliation at the apology? Or at the redfern address? You insensitivity does nothing to help either. And for god sake do you think we haven't realised that when poverty is eradicated, education levels up and substance abuse is curtailed things will be better? Just because we aren't so brash as to risk opening up a new can of worms in the process it does not mean we aren't aiming for that.

 

[black_kat_meow]

And you will be throwing petrol on the fire then complaining at how fiercely it burns you nong. You can't force people not to judge you are right, that is where the onus is on the individual to demonstrate some basic humanity.

Well, then the situation is never going to improve, is it? So you've still contributed no definitive solutions ( whether short or long term).

I think you should be putting more emphasis on the Aborigines' role in improving their situation. It's not all up to everyone else.

And lol at "basic humanity." So we have to show it, but not the Aborigines, as in raping and abusing their children? Sounds like this humanity only applies to whom the bleeding heart left wingers choose it to.

 

[incentivation]

First of all calling them "abo's" hardly implies you give a damn about whether anything improves. Symbols matter, did you not see the jubiliation at the apology? Or at the redfern address? You insensitivity does nothing to help either. And for god sake do you think we haven't realised that when poverty is eradicated, education levels up and substance abuse is curtailed things will be better? Just because we aren't so brash as to risk opening up a new can of worms in the process it does not mean we aren't aiming for that.

Abo = shortened term for Aboriginal. This is a forum, not an essay.

Enlighten me.

Apart from so called 'jubilation', what progress has been made since the apology? Is there still racial animosity on the streets of Dubbo or Moree? Is poverty and drug use still rife amongst these communities? Has the block been revitalised into a hub of peace and tranquility? I think not.

You apparently aim for these things, yet oppose any forceful means of implementing it. As I said, you can't help those, who can't help themselves. Regardless of race or colour.

Symbolism is one thing. Instituting change is another. It made a whole bunch of people feel good for five minutes, but didn't work towards any form of solution for any problem faced.

 

[Lentern]

Well, then the situation is never going to improve, is it? So you've still contributed no definitive solutions ( whether short or long term).

I think you should be putting more emphasis on the Aborigines' role in improving their situation. It's not all up to everyone else.

And lol at "basic humanity." So we have to show it, but not the Aborigines, as in raping and abusing their children? Sounds like this humanity only applies to whom the bleeding heart left wingers choose it to.

Ofcourse there are exceptions for the love of god do you think jumping to extremes like that for the sake of scoring points in an arguement actually means the discussion progress' in anyway?

There is no definitive solution because frankly there is no definitive problem. There is certainly a problem but when you start talking definitives you get to the issue, when 1% still live in poverty is it still a problem? 2%? 5%? The opportunities need to be as available as possible and as plentiful as possible and if you have any desire in seeing improvement you'd do well to excercise discretion in your views.

 

[Lentern]

Abo = shortened term for Aboriginal. This is a forum, not an essay.

Enlighten me.

Apart from so called 'jubilation', what progress has been made since the apology? Is there still racial animosity on the streets of Dubbo or Moree? Is poverty and drug use still rife amongst these communities? Has the block been revitalised into a hub of peace and tranquility? I think not.

You apparently aim for these things, yet oppose any forceful means of implementing it. As I said, you can't help those, who can't help themselves. Regardless of race or colour.

Symbolism is one thing. Instituting change is another. It made a whole bunch of people feel good for five minutes, but didn't work towards any form of solution for any problem faced.

Abo has since become derogatory which you are well aware. Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport is a song not an official document but Rolf atleast had the common sense to take the word "abo" out of it.

Again from you we see this expectation that the night after a supposed solution is enacted the problem will be gone. These things take time and you are not going to see any major change a few months after the apology but by all means you saw how much it meant to so many and how good it made them feel, continue to belittle it and rubbish it as empty and worthless I'm sure that's really going to help.

These things we aim for take time, patience, tact and delicacy. If you were the king of the world Israel and Palestine would make peace in a week then within a month the whole arab world would be on the brink of destruction.

 

[black_kat_meow]

Ofcourse there are exceptions for the love of god do you think jumping to extremes like that for the sake of scoring points in an arguement actually means the discussion progress' in anyway?

There is no definitive solution because frankly there is no definitive problem. There is certainly a problem but when you start talking definitives you get to the issue, when 1% still live in poverty is it still a problem? 2%? 5%?The opportunities need to be as available as possible and as plentiful as possible and if you have any desire in seeing improvement you'd do well to excercise discretion in your views.

You cannot make exceptions and allow people to be inhumane, lol. That doesn't make sense. It's not for scoring points, I'm pointing out your numerous flaws.

Have you ever actually lived in a community with a population of people of Aboriginal descent? Probably not, and you won't properly understand the situation until you do. I could tell you a myriad of stories, but it's not going to help, YOU are infact the one unable to exercise discrection and accept other view points (many of those from those who are actually INFORMED on the situation, I must point out). You obviously have no idea, and no proper solutions. Your lack of education on issues you discuss is evident (importing from "monsoonal" countries, cough, cough?). Please, come back when you are more informed and have the capacity to discuss important issues in a rational way.

 

[katie tully]

Nobody is belittling it you fucking twat, jesus christ.

If I remember correctly, we've been the ones saying that the current system is shit house because you can LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE IT DRINK.

Get off your dickhead high horse for 2 seconds, nobody cares for your rampant, wanton softcockery.

 

[Will Shakespear]

Abo has since become derogatory which you are well aware. Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport is a song not an official document but Rolf atleast had the common sense to take the word "abo" out of it.

Again from you we see this expectation that the night after a supposed solution is enacted the problem will be gone. These things take time and you are not going to see any major change a few months after the apology but by all means you saw how much it meant to so many and how good it made them feel, continue to belittle it and rubbish it as empty and worthless I'm sure that's really going to help.

These things we aim for take time, patience, tact and delicacy. If you were the king of the world Israel and Palestine would make peace in a week then within a month the whole arab world would be on the brink of destruction.

Let me Abos go loose, Lew
Let me Abos go loose
They've got no further use, Lew
So let me Abos go loose.

 

[incentivation]

Abo has since become derogatory which you are well aware. Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport is a song not an official document but Rolf atleast had the common sense to take the word "abo" out of it.

Again from you we see this expectation that the night after a supposed solution is enacted the problem will be gone. These things take time and you are not going to see any major change a few months after the apology but by all means you saw how much it meant to so many and how good it made them feel, continue to belittle it and rubbish it as empty and worthless I'm sure that's really going to help.
.

Still missing the point. It can't be solved overnight. But no symbolic gesture will work towards that actual change. Sure, we've done it. We've apologised. Everyone feels warm and fuzzy. Great. The academics demands have been met. But now we have to move away from this type of approach. We need a move towards interventionist policy (such as the NT intervention). A policy which takes a paternalistic tone. Will it be a retread of the WAP? Of course not. Government's role has changed. But ultimately, it is the only policy that will yield any tangible result. The very existence of the basis for this thread, cries out for such policy.

Therein lies the problem though. The Aboriginal establishment, and umpteen academics will oppose it out of principle. As has been said, 'Violation of human rights, imposing western culture' etc will all be used as excuses. Let's get on with it, and stop this mindless rhetoric which achieves little more than a continuation of discussion.

 

[katie tully]

It's been said.

If Western culture is such an issue for them, they're quite welcome to go back to their original way.

If given a choice, I highly doubt many would opt in.

 

[Silver Persian]

Are you really Iranian? Just in light of what has been revealed today I feel inclined to ask people these things.

Nah I am a pokemon not an Iranian

 

[jb_nc]

Aboriginal people are inept parents who are more concerned about their next drink than their child's next meal.

Is this really a surprise?

 

[hpdanemma]

Far out as pretty much everyone has said, you can offer the assistance but it is up to the individual to accept it. This obviously doesn't just relate to the Aboriginal community, it relates to EVERY disadvantaged group, so why do so many people adopt such racist generalisations about Aboriginals and their suffering? I have no idea how to 'fix' the problem, but the governemnt is sure trying.

And what the hell was wrong with the apology? Yeh, it was a symbol, SO WHAT? Symbols have extreme importance to most people wether you realise it or not, and atleast it happened. I mean, it certainly didn't harm anyone and it brought together the white western culture and Aboriginal culture, atleast for one day.

Anyway I don't have the answers, and I'm pretty much sick of all you closed-minded people who don't actually want to work towards helping society, but instead bask in your ability to point out its faults. The real problem is the societal attitudes towards Aboriginals.

And i NEVER said we shouldn't take neglected children away, wether they be from Aboriginal background or not. There is no excuse for child abuse, but we should focus on prevention methods to try and curb the problem.

But really, the issue I have is with peoples attitudes. I mean how the hell do you expect Aboriginals to "harden the fuck up" and get over things JUST LIKE THAT? Especially with idiots running around complaining about the money Aboriginals get and how theyre all suppsed rapists and child abusers. Yeh, very helpful. Honestly, other than NOTHING I don't know what you're trying to prove. And of course people are going to get pissed of and respond when we hear people saying "Aboriginals don't know rape is illegal", "Aboriginal people are inept parents who are more concerned about their next drink than their child's next meal." etc etc. I'm sure making those generalisations about an ENTIRE cultural group proves absolutely nothing.
It's just irritating, but obviously nothing I say is going to change your mind.

 

[Darnie]

Far out as pretty much everyone has said, you can offer the assistance but it is up to the individual to accept it. This obviously doesn't just relate to the Aboriginal community, it relates to EVERY disadvantaged group, so why do so many people adopt such racist generalisations about Aboriginals and their suffering? I have no idea how to 'fix' the problem, but the governemnt is sure trying.

And what the hell was wrong with the apology? Yeh, it was a symbol, SO WHAT? Symbols have extreme importance to most people wether you realise it or not, and atleast it happened. I mean, it certainly didn't harm anyone and it brought together the white western culture and Aboriginal culture, atleast for one day.

Anyway I don't have the answers, and I'm pretty much sick of all you closed-minded people who don't actually want to work towards helping society, but instead bask in your ability to point out its faults. The real problem is the societal attitudes towards Aboriginals.

And i NEVER said we shouldn't take neglected children away, wether they be from Aboriginal background or not. There is no excuse for child abuse, but we should focus on prevention methods to try and curb the problem.

But really, the issue I have is with peoples attitudes. I mean how the hell do you expect Aboriginals to "harden the fuck up" and get over things JUST LIKE THAT? Especially with idiots running around complaining about the money Aboriginals get and how theyre all suppsed rapists and child abusers. Yeh, very helpful. Honestly, other than NOTHING I don't know what you're trying to prove. And of course people are going to get pissed of and respond when we hear people saying "Aboriginals don't know rape is illegal", "Aboriginal people are inept parents who are more concerned about their next drink than their child's next meal." etc etc. I'm sure making those generalisations about an ENTIRE cultural group proves absolutely nothing.
It's just irritating, but obviously nothing I say is going to change your mind.

whoa, so hang on, cause we call aboriginals a few bad names, they can wallow in all the government benefits and everything else they receive, yet still be a lower class in our society? and i'm sorry, but unless an aboriginal is one of the stolen generation, or possibly offspring of the stolen generation, they probably would have little more sympathy for it than i do.

fuck them, if they aren't going to use the benefits they're given, we'll take them away. they can earn a living the way normal people do, instead of relying on benefits for their grog and their drugs. There is no legal reason for employers to descriminate against them, therefore they should have no more trouble than the rest of us to get a job.
therefore, in conclusion, aboriginals should either use the benefits they're given, or they should be taken away. far out.