Addicted to prestige? (1 Viewer)

[lisapryor]

Hello everyone,
My name is Lisa Pryor. I'm a journalist at The Sydney Morning Herald and, incidentally, a former law student.
I am currently writing a book about about graduate life in big firms, particularly big law firms. As an extension of this I will be looking at the university experience of students in fields like law and finance.
I am very interested in the posts in the law section of the forum. I notice that some posters even include their UAI in their posts, plus the university they are studying at, what clerkships they have been offered etc.
My question to you all is this: how important is prestige to you in your study and career choices? Do you ever feel trapped by the need to achieve and prove yourself? What kind of a career do you hope for when you graduate?
Cheers,
Lisa
P.S. If anyone wants to email me privately, I can be reached at lpryor@smh.com.au

 

[Frigid]

Hi Lisa,

I don't think 'prestige' quite captures why some people do law. I think some of us do because we're risk-averse.

Recently my faculty published its Undergraduate Admissions Guide for 2007http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/Future_Students/undergraduate/UgBrochure2007.pdf#view=Fit (2MB, pdf), which will be distributed to this year's HSC cohort. At about page 5 you will find details of corporate law careers and page 17 describes the summer clerkship program.

Every year, 'top tier' law firms throw significant amounts of sponsorship money at law student associations to market their graduate and clerkship programs. They come to us with their glossy brochures, showbags and noveltieshttp://www.sydneylawcareersfair.com.au/index.php, and invite us their offices aloft monolithic skyscrapershttp://www.126phillipstreet.com.au/.

And we are drawn to it. the big firm culture. the smiles on the graduate pictures. the swanky offices with comfy designer chairs.

On one hand, I would like to think of myself as an individual. I do not want to be seen as a typical commerce law student, battery-farmed for top-tier/Big 4/investment banking employment.

On the other hand, what else am I to do? one finishes undergraduate combined law in five or so years, knows very little about the law in its practice, and is not fit for self-employment. not all of us have entrepreneurial talents or can become the next Matthew Reillyhttp://www.matthewreilly.com/.

Where does that leave us? We fall back on what we can do, namely risk-aversive, steady-income graduate offers at corporations, in corporate law, accounting and finance.

I don't think I've answered your question Lisa, but for commerce law students, I think risk-aversion, not prestige, is the real issue. While some of our more esteemed alumni are bold spirits, I think the majority of us are but timorous souls.

Regards,
Wen.

PS. You might also wish to refer to Schiltz P, "On Being a Happy, Healthy, and Ethical Member of an Unhappy, Unhealthy, and Unethical Profession", 52 Vand. L. Rev. 871 1999

 

[lisapryor]

Yes, I think you are spot on regarding the "risk averse" issue. Although I think it must be more than risk aversion. After all, a position with the DPP, for example, is no more risky than a position with a big firm and yet it is the big firms that everyone seems to scramble for - or feel they should scramble for. I say this having been through the summer clerkship process myself and having worked at a few big law firms.

 

[Frigid]

After all, a position with the DPP, for example, is no more risky than a position with a big firm and yet it is the big firms that everyone seems to scramble for - or feel they should scramble for. I say this having been through the summer clerkship process myself and having worked at a few big law firms.

of course, after risk-aversion, it would be the remuneration. i would think that salaries, on the whole, are better at corporate firms rather than CP/DPP/AGS/LegalAid. there seems to be also a stigma attached to government work, that it is not as 'prestigious', or without the same level of career prospects (if you're not aiming to be an equity partner at a government office, then what are you aiming to be?). it may also be that commerce law students (generalising here) are not as interested in policy or criminal law.

i don't think there's necessarily a 'right' way to go about being a penultimate law student, and alot of us are content just following the crowd. after all, who would not want to boast amongst his peers, 'ohhh i got a clerkship offer from mallesons/allens/freehills'?

do tell us a little more about your book, and your findings on graduates so far.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

My question to you all is this: how important is prestige to you in your study and career choices?

Without a doubt, the prestige associated with the law is a positive factor, but it is only one of many. The remuneration, interest in the work and nature of the profession are far more important to me.

Has it affected my career choices? I think because I love all aspects of law it wouldn't have had too much influence on choosing to practice per se. In terms of where and in what capacity to practice, certainly the prestige of large, top-tier firms is more appealing. But prestige is closely linked to success, and who wouldn't want to be as successful as they can be in their chosen profession?

Do you ever feel trapped by the need to achieve and prove yourself?

I do feel the need to achieve, stemming from two sources. The first is that I know my potential, and I do not think I have succeeded in reaching it. The second source stems from the need to launch into the career I want. The former is my own personal drive to truly achieve self-actualisation. The latter is an external pressure put upon all law students to gain decent marks to impress prospective employers. This external pressure can at times be daunting, and I think all law students probably feel trapped to some extent.

As for proving myself - yes, I do feel such a desire. Among all the other factors involved in careers, I want my parents to see me adorned in wig and robe and know that they have provided for a good life, a successful life, and one of security. I want them to see that after the long road I have made it to where I set out.

What kind of a career do you hope for when you graduate?

I fervently desire to practice at the bar, which I personally regard as far more prestigious than any other job in the country (including top-tier corporate work), except for judicial appointment (although that generally only ensues from a successful career at the bar anyway). I admit, this has augmented my motivation, but again it is only one factor. The fact that barristers work independently, as sole traders, is far more consequential to me.

 

[El Misterio]

Certainly the prestige of working in a "big law firm" has been a factor in my study and career choices, but the main factor has really been competitive drive. I suspect that's true of many law students. I suppose that this is the "need to achieve" that you mentioned but it's probably more internally / personally derived than it is a result of the perceptions of others (to the extent that these things are separable).

My "big law firm" experiences to date have been overwhelmingly positive so I certainly don't feel as if I've somehow been pressured into making study or career choices that aren't right for me.

 

[Rorix]

I already have a problem with your article as the question is posed:

how important is prestige to you in your study and career choices?

Not many people are going to say that prestige is totally not important at all in your study and career choices. No-one wants to work as a garbageman, although I'm sure the renumeration for those warriors is a fair living. But just because someone has a tiny interest in prestige doesn't mean that prestige is one of the contributing factors toward taking a law degree, which it feels like you are trying to assume it is.

Plenty of jobs have more prestige than working as a solicitor in a mega firm...

A more appropriate question, which would not bias the results, would be to ask what contributed to your decision to take law...but I guess it wouldn't make a great book if no-one said prestige, since it's obviously an angle you are shooting at.

Do you ever feel trapped by the need to achieve and prove yourself?

Is there anyone in the world who has NEVER ever felt the need to achieve, or to prove oneself? Again, the phrasing of the question is designed to induce answers which may not necessarily accurately represent reality - good journalism perhaps, but an accurate representation no.

Even if one does feel the need to achieve often is this a) law specific or just general human nature (I'd guess the latter) or b) even necessarily a bad thing? (I'd think not).

What kind of a career do you hope for when you graduate?

Well, really, almost everyone will answer to work in a megafirm (some with the aim of later becoming a barrister). As Frigid says, we are bombarded with advertising from the megafirms, the type of which the DPP or small firms cannot match.

If that is true though, one must wonder what is the place of the more social equality aimed subjects such as Law and Sexuality etc. when these subjects seem to be the majority judging from the faculty handbook...although I have not experienced the latter years of law myself.

 

[lisapryor]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
I'd be interested to know whether you think the attitudes of law students have changed in the last few years. (I started law in 1997, which means you probably think I am ancient ...)
I get the impression that law students are less resistant to the idea of a corporate career than they used to be. A partner at a big law firm has told me that the graduates coming through now tend to be less idealistic than in the past. They might believe that, say, it is good to look after the environment but they have no desire to change the world.
What do you reckon?

 

[neo o]

A partner at a big law firm has told me that the graduates coming through now tend to be less idealistic than in the past. They might believe that, say, it is good to look after the environment but they have no desire to change the world.
What do you reckon?

I reckon that anyone pursuing a career at a big law firm with an intention to "change the world" is deluded. In fact, I'd say that graduates who head to big law firms were never idealistic in the first place. The 2002 ABS Legal Services Survey showed that lawyers in large firms did 77 hours less pro-bono work than sole, urban and rural practioners. I’d imagine that such “idealists” would start work in government departments, as academics, within small law firms, in NGOs and for legal aid.

BTW I suspect that most people would feel that not looking after the environment is a bad thing. Of course, that doesn’t mean people care about the environment. Nor does it stop middle class, urban adventurers from driving 4WDs - it just means that they care about what happens to old growth forests in Tasmania, which they've never been to, and never will go to.

Personally I think that this entire discussion is completely irrelevant. I don't see how work as a solicitor in a big firm is any different to work as an accountant. I also don't see how the motivations of law students in their choice of career path really matters. I do law because I like the smell of musty, leather bound tomes. It won't make me any less of a lawyer when I graduate, it just might mean that I'll end up as an academic.. god forbid!

 

[michaeln36]

well for prestige; the prestige of the university is big driving factor for me. I am in year 12, and hope to study law next year at either sydney uni or unsw (leaning more towards unsw). It is probably because the additional prestige these unis have equates to higher chances of employment and good starting salaries.

But the prestige can also have a backwards effect. If someone asks me what i want to do next year and i reply "law" or "commerce law", some peopel take it as an instant thing saying "im better than u", because of all the prestige surounding law. it annoys me quite a bit sometimes, now if its unlikely ill talk to that person much again i just say "commerce" to sound more normal :S.

 

[lisapryor]

To Neo O:
You have to remember that not everyone goes into big firms believing they will stay there. I did a summer clerkship in 2000 and only a handful of the 40 clerks from my year are still working at the firm. In fact, I would say only a small minority of graduates who start out at big firms plan to stay on for the rest of their career.

 

[turtleface]

Law Firms? Accounting firms in my mind would be more interesting.

Anyway, enough of my trolling,

When people here refer to prestige, where do they think the prestige is coming from? If you talk to you average person on the street and say "Oh I'm a solicitor at Mallesons" would they even know what you're on about?

I think the general population, Law jobs are seen to be pretty prestigious, a lot due to television programs and the high UAI/ENTER that (used) to be required to get into law. I think due to the oversupply of Law grads now, the field is becoming less prestigious as all sorts of people from your Union Boss to your Company Secretary seems to have a Law degree nowdays.

Amongst more knowledgable people in the business community, I think Law is no more prestigious than any other profession. I doubt your CEO or even your average Banker or Accountant would be like "Wow, that dude's a Lawyer". lol. Sif. I don't think anybody cares. Its not like its difficult to do a grad Law program anyway if anyone is awed by Lawyers and wants to become one.

I don't think higher salaries in law firms are that important for prestige in Australia. Public Practice Solicitors in the the U.S. and Canada are paid heaps, but in Australia, Lawyers are paid very low in comparison. Hell, if pay was a driving factor, you'd say Investment Banker jobs are the most prestigious. Ok they are to some, but most people outside Commerce don't know what they are.

But the prestige can also have a backwards effect. If someone asks me what i want to do next year and i reply "law" or "commerce law", some peopel take it as an instant thing saying "im better than u", because of all the prestige surounding law. it annoys me quite a bit sometimes, now if its unlikely ill talk to that person much again i just say "commerce" to sound more normal :S.

I know what you mean, but thanks for disparaging Commerce people.

 

[turtleface]

Personally I think that this entire discussion is completely irrelevant. I don't see how work as a solicitor in a big firm is any different to work as an accountant.

Yes this strikes me as extremely strange. Why is it that Lawyers are seen to be so different from Accountants when: (ok I won't rehash my Accountants vs Lawyers thread)

- In most other countries, both Law and Accounting grads have to do "articles of clerkship" in firms (in Australia Accounting grads to do sort of, but its just not called that and instead is called Mentored Years)
- for Big 6 Law, theres Big 4 Accounting, Mid Tier Law, theres mid tier Accounting etc etc. For surburban Solicitior, theres surburban tax agent.
- Where theres Chief Financial Officer (CFO)/Finance Director (FD) for Accounting, theres General Counsel for Lawyers in firms. Both Exec positions. Though I must add CFOs or FDs are usually paid more than GCs
- Accounting and Law overlap in so many areas. (see next point)
- The Financial Accounting, Auditing, Insolvency, Forensic, Taxation, Super etc. branches of Accounting is essentially applied Law.

It just strikes me as strange.

I think noone would say that being an Accountant (even in Big 4) is as prestigious as a Grad in a Big 6 firm.

 

[lisapryor]

I am interested in the same phenomenon with regard to graduates who take on jobs in fields like investment banking, management consulting etc. Though I guess law is particularly interesting in a way. Commerce and accounting students have obviously chosen a university course which is focused on money making, whereas in law this is not necessarily the case. So it seems to me there are more law graduates who end up in big corporate firms kind of scratching their heads because they never imagined that as the kind of path their career would take.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Well I have always wanted to take part in a career that has some impact on society, having an important function to play. Since law is the backbone of society, it fits this well. But I think that is different from altruistic, change-the-world type ideals. It's not so much as prestige though -- rather wanting to use my skills in a way that shapes or contributes to the grander scheme of things.

 

[§eraphim]

Let's not neglect to discuss Science grads

There are many talented Mathematicians, Statisticians and Physicists who after Honours or a PhD also enter lucrative fields such as quantitative finance and actuarial science. They also have much potential to contribute to society through their research.

I don't know whether they enter finance for the prestige, but the money is certainly enticing and also that there are very few opportunities to enter academia/research with our underfunded university sector.