African Famine (1 Viewer)

[Not-That-Bright]

What if the west woke up tomorrow, free'd every African nation of their debts and started pumping billions into their economies... would they be that much better off?

My points;

- Over the past decade more than $US1 Trillion has been given in aid to Africa... with no drastic result.

- Aids is so rampant in Africa it's hard to imagine the continent ever getting on it's feet...

- Much of Africa is owned by warlords and tribal factions. They'll keep fighting, burning down the villages and shitting all over any good work anyone does.

In my opinion, only the African people can truly save Africa...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Let's largely ignore that the African governments would probably just use debt relief to buy more guns, and say world vision is given 1 trillion to spend fixing Africa...

 

[Generator]

In my opinion, only the African people can truly save Africa...

I agree, but that isn't to say that we cannot provide a helping hand (Europe in particular, I believe). Still, in keeping in line with what you say, such help is only of benefit if it is actually offered to and applied in accordance with the African people rather than it being enforced from above. I'm not against aid, merely aid that circumvents those that are in need of it and aid practices that are well intentioned yet misguided.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Whatever they may or may not do with the money they spend on debt relief, the fact of the matter is that billions of dollars are wasted on paying debt.

I think nations should follow Cuba's example. Cuba gives out more then aid to the African nations. They provide real help as in doctors, and help in planing. Also with Cuba they do not expect anything in return. The only problem with Cuba it is a small nation population wise and money wise, so it can not stretch its helping hand as far as the rich nations can.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

"wasted" on paying debt instead of buying guns? I'd rather they be forced to pay the debt.
Or maybe everyone should just stop selling them guns.

 

[Generator]

More so money wasted in general than it being mis-directed, NTB. I don't see how you missed that point, particularly as Nathan provided a clear example supporting his stance in the second paragraph. Then again, it may be fair to assume that you just wanted to criticise the poster rather than consider the point.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Nice assumption generator

I agree with Nathan in that if they REALLY wanted to help the people of Africa they wouldn't just be sending money... what you need in Africa is almost a humanitarian military campaign imo

 

[Generator]

Nice assumption generator

I thought so, too .

I agree with Nathan in that if they REALLY wanted to help the people of Africa they wouldn't just be sending money... what you need in Africa is almost a humanitarian military campaign imo

I agree.

 

[Comrade nathan]

what you need in Africa is almost a humanitarian military campaign imo

If you implying a military action from the outside i disagree. This will contradict with the nationalist and culture of the different ethnicities of the African continent.

I can only see this as another white hegemony in Africa, when all the movements in Africa have been an attempt to rid white hegemony.

But i do agree in a humanitarian military campaign coming from within Africa, although what we are talking about is something of vast scale and if it does not succed will be the the worst era in history.

There would be alot to gain, mostly riding all the parasitic elements in the African governments, but if not successful alot to lose.

 

[shady_03]

Firstly the whole situation with the government has to be resolved, but another main reasion why there in poverty is coz there is no infrastructure, for example growing crops to sustain a large amount of people. Aids is only one of the problems, but yeah NTB ur right in saying that sending money isnt gonna help, they just become wasted resources

 

[paper cup]

If you implying a military action from the outside i disagree. This will contradict with the nationalist and culture of the different ethnicities of the African continent.

I can only see this as another white hegemony in Africa, when all the movements in Africa have been an attempt to rid white hegemony.

But i do agree in a humanitarian military campaign coming from within Africa, although what we are talking about is something of vast scale and if it does not succed will be the the worst era in history.

There would be alot to gain, mostly riding all the parasitic elements in the African governments, but if not successful alot to lose.

NTB you stole my idea.

The situation in Africa is extremely complex and I doubt there is anything that can be done to alleviate it within this century. Most of the countries only became independent of European colonialism in the last fifty years and when the Europeans left many problems stayed.

Money is not the solution, as someone said it'll just disappear because of the corruption. Africa doesn't know how to develop itself. It's just like because of the Stolen Generation a lot of ATSI don't know how to parent, since they never had a solid parenting influence themselves. I think we need to pump experts into the continent - health, economic, and so on, to teach them how to govern, how to tackle the AIDS crisis etc, a hand up not a hand out.

 

[Comrade nathan]

I think we need to pump experts into the continent - health, economic, and so on, to teach them how to govern, how to tackle the AIDS crisis etc, a hand up not a hand out

Thats kind of assumes they are idiots. It also denies there is a material basis for these problems, and they can just go away if we educate the people.

There is no doubt there are intelligent people who know how to govern, as shown in history where world powers were grown out of semi fuedal countries. There are many obstactles that need to be overcame, and they can be overcome by the African people, with support (not control) from othe nations.

 

[paper cup]

Thats kind of assumes they are idiots. It also denies there is a material basis for these problems, and they can just go away if we educate the people.

There is no doubt there are intelligent people who know how to govern, as shown in history where world powers were grown out of semi fuedal countries. There are many obstactles that need to be overcame, and they can be overcome by the African people, with support (not control) from othe nations.

no you misinterpreted.
idiocy and lack of skills, be they technical or administrative, are two different things altogether.

 

[Bambul]

Alan Kohler put it pretty well on Inside Business today: http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2005/s1405723.htm

Although I still think that debt relief, more aid and reductions in trade barriers are still helpful (especially droping some of those agricultural trade barriers in Europe, North America and Japan), more important for Africa's development is transparent democracy to reduce corruption and a reduction in the currently high trade barriers *between* developing countries themselves (that accounts for 40% of their trade whereas trade with rich countries is about 60%).

 

[absolution*]

My points;

- Over the past decade more than $US1 Trillion has been given in aid to Africa... with no drastic result.

The US Government Budget for 2004-2005

Total Federal Funds (Outlays): $2.13 Trillion

Current Military, $558 Billion:Military Personnel $109B, Operation and Maintenance $154B, Procurement $81B, Research and Development $68B, Construction $7B, Family Housing $4B, Retired Pay $46B, DoE Nuclear Weapons $17B, NASA (50%) $8B, International Security $8B, Homeland Sec. (50%) $16B, Ex. Off. Pres. $78, Misc. $4B, “Allowance for Anticipated Supplemental” (Iraq) $25B

UNBUDGETTED: $85 Billion (est.):Most of the spending for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is not included in the President’s Budget but the Administration has announced it will seek this money as supplemental appropriations later in year as it has in the past two years


and...

"The U.S. government gives more than $10 billion in foreign aid each year to foreign governments and foreign and international organizations"


God bless America.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

So they should give more? for what result? the current result of NOTHING?

 

[rama_v]

Some food for thought

How much aid does the United States give?
Less than 1 percent of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid. President Bush’s 2003 budget proposes about $11.4 billion in economic assistance and about $4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.

How do U.S. aid levels compare with those of other countries?
The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world’s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent). In raw dollars, however, the United States is now the world’s top donor of economic aid, although for more than a decade it was second to Japan, which is far smaller and has been beset by economic woes. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001—almost a third of what America contributed.

Do Americans understand how much of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid?
No. A 2001 poll sponsored by the University of Maryland showed that most Americans think the United States spends about 24 percent of its annual budget on foreign aid—more than 24 times the actual figure

From http://cfrterrorism.org/policy/foreignaid.html

The second question is particularly important. I think there is a culture of belief that wealthy countries (not just the US) are giving trillions of dollars to Africa with no result.

There was also an interestign article in Time Magazine recently on poverty in Africa, and it was based on a book by Dr. Jeffrey Sachs (background on the guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs)

http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/endofpoverty/

 

[loquasagacious]

TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE. TRADE.

Yes debt relief is a key to Africas recovery HOWEVER unless the causes are addressed then there is no point unless you want to have a Live8 concert every twenty years (not necasserily a bad thing in itself) and relieve debt again.

To effect lasting change the reasons that africa is so heavily in debt must be addressed these reasons are two-fold.

Trade is neither free or fair. The Trade barriers in place around Europe alone constitute more than the total ammount of AID given to Africa anually. Were Africa able to sell its goods to the world in a free market then their situation would be vastly improved, South-East Asia is a prime example of this. As a DIRECT result of this injustice Africa's economy is severly handicapped.

Corruption and lawlessness. Can you imagine any good being done were Robert Mugabe given millions and millions of dollars of aid??? This is the situation in Africa, well-intentioned aid is actually supporting oppressive regimes. The article linked too previously deals with this quite comprehensively.

There are also some smaller political reasons. Aid for instance is often used to buy off governments and as such does not go to the most needy. Aid sometimes comes in the form of goods, however for political reasons these may be wholy unsuitable eg large fuel hungry john derre tractors are more hinderance than help to a developing country whose agricultural sector is composed of small farms.

Africa is a problem created by the developed world. Africa is not a problem that can be solved overnight. Africa is not a problem that the west can arbitrarilley solve at all. Africa is a problem that the west can HELP solve. Debt relief is one small part of a far larger picture of needed reform. Of greatest importnace is trade, Africa will NEVER get on its feet without fair/free trade with the west.

 

[IamaFloorMat]

So they should give more? for what result? the current result of NOTHING?

they could pay off the debt probably if they wanted to

and furthermore the aid AFrica gets goes to TNC's and what not anyway

 

[Comrade nathan]

Did anyone listen to Hack today on Tripple J? A man form aid watch was on and made some good points.