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Best degrees for atheists who want to debate creationists? (3 Viewers)

Cookie182

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My personal opinion is that surface level philosophy is very useful for challenging god and the typical creationist arguments. However, I have found that truly critical philosophy has made me somewhat more cynical towards the conception of reason as the 'ultimate arbitrator' and leaves me unable to rule out god entirely.
Hmm and as a med student, your understanding of evolutionary bio would also be up there...

After reviewing this thread, should philosophy then be the second degree that I should take up? I have considered it, its just that in many ways I think you can read a lot of it yourself. In hindsight do you ever regret paying to do it at a tertiary institution? Is it worth the formal uni study is basically what im asking as oppossed to being an "amature"?

Also do you think it would be even more complimentary then science to my finance/economics studies?
 

Cookie182

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Also, I find it interesting that your approach to education in this case is to work towards justifying a personal conviction (similar to many entering a theological seminary?), compared to an exercise in open discovery.
aye, my presuppositionalism is evident...

Having said that, I would not resist to believe in a well defined "god concept" if it satisfied my logic...

Really I'm just seeking further knowledge about the universe and don't know where to turn lol

I thought Hawkings and Dawkins, but now your making me think Kant and Hume have the answers...

...or Socrates.

*The problem is "living" in the meanwhile. Our socio-economic system only rewards those fields of enquiry which add to corporate value>> vocational degrees/education. Studying liberal arts & science is beautiful (and in my eyes the highest attainment) yet many grads do and then take their reasoning skills to the firms where they can actually "apply it" just to earn a wage...

Oh the sadness of the system, theres some philosophy here in itself!
 

Cookie182

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Also, I find it interesting that your approach to education in this case is to work towards justifying a personal conviction (similar to many entering a theological seminary?), compared to an exercise in open discovery.
Further, should I just do law?

Could you infer that law is an applied philosophy degree that actually pays??

Or is this an over-simplify and cynical statement?

(words of a friend)
 

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Ok cheers. Perhaps I should look at a geography major then, I loved geography in highschool.

We have two GIS subjects at my uni. A geography major would also prob combine well with economics. The problem is I only have about 90 credits I can add on.

Is a science degree without any chemistry or physics worth much?

I could take intro geology units, 3 bio units (upto 2nd yr ecology), env physics, biogeography, GIS, Remote Sensing etc and fit it all, but would this be a worth while major?

I'm guessing it would at the very least give me breadth and begin to give me answers to my materialist ponderments.
Well, I did the required single course of physics and single course of chemistry and left it at that :p
 

Cookie182

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Also, Kfunk when you say "not rule out god entirely" I'm assuming your definition of "god" here is quite unique. I'm smug enough to assume it ain't Allah or the Christian god?

btw, have u critically read George Smiths "The Case Against God" (1979), forwarded a fairly basic +ve case for atheism

Also another question (I could seriously write you a 10 pg letter), what is your thoughts on a political science/theory major? Looks very interesting as well in our BA degrees, seems a little more softer then philosophy in terms of critical theory and more "applied" so to speak. Is philosophy more respected and regarded as more rigorous? I'm guessing a philosophy major would have no problem critiquing a political theory anyway...
 
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KFunk

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After reviewing this thread, should philosophy then be the second degree that I should take up? I have considered it, its just that in many ways I think you can read a lot of it yourself. In hindsight do you ever regret paying to do it at a tertiary institution? Is it worth the formal uni study is basically what im asking as oppossed to being an "amature"?

Also do you think it would be even more complimentary then science to my finance/economics studies?
Philosophy suits me at the tertiary level because (1) I am earning a professional degree anyway, (2) BA(hons) in philosophy opens up the possibility of later higher research if I choose to do so, (3) a background in philosophy may help me to engage with the ethical and philosophical aspects of medicine (ethics committees, biotechnology, definition of mental illness, termination of life in ICU, the experience of the 'body' in sickness and in health). No doubt I could have taught myself much of what I have learnt at uni, but university has been very engaging and lecturers serve as fantastic guides through the material. Assessments also force you to hone your skills.

Further, should I just do law?

Could you infer that law is an applied philosophy degree that actually pays??
If I thought I could answer this for you I wouldn't be a good student of philosophy. Certainly I don't think that law has a monopoly when it comes to developing one's ability to construct arguments (compared to, say, philosophy, mathematics, formal systems like logic) --> I will say that philosophy and (meta)logic are particularly useful in this domain, especially when it comes to fallacies, use/mention and semantics/syntax distinctions, interpretation of quantification in different forms of logic (classical/modal/epistemic/computational), etc. It is perfectly possible to teach yourself such things (I certainly haven't taken courses in any of these specific areas).
 

KFunk

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Really I'm just seeking further knowledge about the universe and don't know where to turn lol

I thought Hawkings and Dawkins, but now your making me think Kant and Hume have the answers...

...or Socrates.

*The problem is "living" in the meanwhile. Our socio-economic system only rewards those fields of enquiry which add to corporate value>> vocational degrees/education. Studying liberal arts & science is beautiful (and in my eyes the highest attainment) yet many grads do and then take their reasoning skills to the firms where they can actually "apply it" just to earn a wage...

Oh the sadness of the system, theres some philosophy here in itself!
If you have a lot of smarts on your side then you can make a(n) (academic) career in the liberal arts. You can always compromise: lately I have been considering a split career --> finish medicine, specialise in a field which is potentially conducive to part time work (e.g. shift work in intensive care or private psychiatry) and then attempt a split between clinical practice / academic humanities. There are a number of people around universities who manage combined professional/academic carrers.

Also, the likes of Kant/Hume simply offer different kinds of answers to Dawkins/Hawking. What I will say in favour of philosophy is that the range of answers is exceptionally broad, such that 'theistic creationism' and 'scientific realism' stand as but two views within the multitude. Both science and religion will tend to leave a number of things assumed and untouched (as will much philosophy, of course).
 

KFunk

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Also, Kfunk when you say "not rule out god entirely" I'm assuming your definition of "god" here is quite unique. I'm smug enough to assume it ain't Allah or the Christian god?

btw, have u critically read George Smiths "The Case Against God" (1979), forwarded a fairly basic +ve case for atheism

Also another question (I could seriously write you a 10 pg letter), what is your thoughts on a political science/theory major? Looks very interesting as well in our BA degrees, seems a little more softer then philosophy in terms of critical theory and more "applied" so to speak. Is philosophy more respected and regarded as more rigorous? I'm guessing a philosophy major would have no problem critiquing a political theory anyway...
On god, I will offer you a link to a recent post rather than retype something similar.

Both politics and philosophy can be rigorous. I am tempted to say that philosophy has the potential to be more 'hardcore' but most philosophy departments in NSW only run few courses that I would toss into the 'difficult' basket. Employment-wise philosophy comes down to generic skills (find me an employer cool enough to care about what you know about gender roles in Plato's Republic) whereas politics will equip you with a similar skillset at the same time as offering you knowledge which may be of specific relevance to certain careers (e.g. within government institutions, many NGOs, etc).
 

Cookie182

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If you have a lot of smarts on your side then you can make a(n) (academic) career in the liberal arts. You can always compromise: lately I have been considering a split career --> finish medicine, specialise in a field which is potentially conducive to part time work (e.g. shift work in intensive care or private psychiatry) and then attempt a split between clinical practice / academic humanities. There are a number of people around universities who manage combined professional/academic carrers.

Also, the likes of Kant/Hume simply offer different kinds of answers to Dawkins/Hawking. What I will say in favour of philosophy is that the range of answers is exceptionally broad, such that 'theistic creationism' and 'scientific realism' stand as but two views within the multitude. Both science and religion will tend to leave a number of things assumed and untouched (as will much philosophy, of course).
Thanks for your replies, thoughtful as always.

Firstly in respect to careers, I guess your advantage is that medicine is already clearly defined, with as you point out, philosophy acting as (useful) but complimentary knowledge.

In my case, a commerce degree is far less defined, and whilst I don't doubt the usefulness of the skills a BA teaches, it is a tricky decision (not that a BSc offers fantastic opportunies either, on surface).

I do like the breadth of philosophical enquiry and it certainly destroys any presupposed intellectual arrogance one has stored up when your whole world views (including those which you feel are immune because they are grounded in "science") are evaluated in front of one self. I'll admit though, at the danger of admiting to ignorance, science is comfortable enquiry. I think psychologically we all seek certainty and "truth" (the lovely word it is) and for many scientists the constant results and advancements give them this. The dreaded enemy in many ways is the philosopher of science who can then make them question their own methodology and ultimately reality. My own critique on the limited philosophy I have read is the complete and utter lack of certainty, to the point where I felt at times its a time-old act of no resolution. Philosophy in essence doesn't produce anything- one well thought through opinion is just as quickly disapated or held equal to something completely contradictory. At the end of the day, do you know the 'truth' in the most objective sense any more then you did before you began? If it leads to nihilism and I know this a priori then why should I bother- should I feel settled that that is the ultimate truth? Is there any universal advancements in the field such that there is a theory or "law" that is considered standard (besides the rules of logic)?

Science seems to offer that certainty, even if it is deluded in a deep sense, as it constantly builds on itself, throwing out junk but continually expanding our knowledge. Going down the other track means I could be 60 yrs old and still know nothing. Even if this is true in a realistic sense for an old scientist, is it not nice to die with the illusion of certainty?

Shit...I just answered why people are religious lol.
 

Cookie182

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On god, I will offer you a link to a recent post rather than retype something similar.

Both politics and philosophy can be rigorous. I am tempted to say that philosophy has the potential to be more 'hardcore' but most philosophy departments in NSW only run few courses that I would toss into the 'difficult' basket. Employment-wise philosophy comes down to generic skills (find me an employer cool enough to care about what you know about gender roles in Plato's Republic) whereas politics will equip you with a similar skillset at the same time as offering you knowledge which may be of specific relevance to certain careers (e.g. within government institutions, many NGOs, etc).
I like your approach, your reflection on god is as you say sympathetic and interesting, but its also beautiful as you treat it as though its simply a philosophical concept X existing as a possible element with our universe ( a set) or beyond.

I have similar contemplations, yet I would go further then you in my militantism, probably due to immaturity at times but mostly just due to an inner frustration in relation to the pragmatic effects of actually knowing 'a god' and telling the world at a legislative level (eg- Sharia law).

My issue is remaining calm around those who claim to not only know god, but who are certain of the existence at the complete denial of science. Surely this must frustrate you intellectually, or have you simply transcended the god politics?

I thought philosophy would create an outspoken, augmentative monster...Kfunk, are you a rare personality or was the consensus among your fourth year fellowship one of soothing and compassionate enquiry?
 

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Shit...I just answered why people are religious lol.
Haha, correct, and well spotted.

Personally I quite enjoy the self-devouring nature of critical philosophy. I find it worthwhile to cultivate a certain amount of comfort with uncertainty and incompleteness (in the technical logic sense, even). Perhaps this is what Sextus Empiricus (a 'Pyrrhonean' skeptic) meant to indicate by the term Ataraxia?
 

Cookie182

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I'd classify myslef firstly as an ignostic, but if I'm willing to lax my first barrier, I'm an unsettled agnostic sipping the straw of probabilistic atheism, a similar position to Albert Ellis the great American Psychologist.

Without the requisite philosophical background I stuggle to describe another major concern of mine and that is the use (and in my opinion the limitations) of using language to describe the possibility and furthermore the characteristics of such an entity at all.

A non-cognitivist approach seems highly interesting...
 

Cookie182

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Haha, correct, and well spotted.

Personally I quite enjoy the self-devouring nature of critical philosophy. I find it worthwhile to cultivate a certain amount of comfort with uncertainty and incompleteness (in the technical logic sense, even). Perhaps this is what Sextus Empiricus (a 'Pyrrhonean' skeptic) meant to indicate by the term Ataraxia?
hmm "a state of robust tranquility" would be lovely.

Honestly, your the doc-to-be, I'll anonymously admit that I feel deeply disturbed without answers, its almost a paranoid rift in my psychology. I find what you seem to enjoy, queezy and uneasy (though I could learn to live with it). If I had less intelligence I could put down my copy of the god delusion and be done with it. But then what better am I then my man under the Lord? I could of done the same thing with the Bible 15 yrs ago.

The further I enquire, the harder it is to get to sleep...

Yet I only have a limited time until the final sleep comes (death)...is it worth seeking knowledge at all, if only to further the pain?

Don't fear, I'm not suicidal, but I can contemplate it in a theoretical/philosophical sense...

as i'm sure many philosophers have, any thoughts on the "dark side" of enquiry?
 

Cookie182

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In the most broadest sense, Kfunk why do you bother to live, neverlone "seek knowledge" if in many ways you have already learned knowledge can't be fully acquired (paradox there I think: how can this be true under nihilism?)?

I mentioned this at the dinner table once and the folks got worried...I consider it a legitimate question.
 

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My issue is remaining calm around those who claim to not only know god, but who are certain of the existence at the complete denial of science. Surely this must frustrate you intellectually, or have you simply transcended the god politics?

I thought philosophy would create an outspoken, augmentative monster...Kfunk, are you a rare personality or was the consensus among your fourth year fellowship one of soothing and compassionate enquiry?
Haha, a bit of both perhaps? I have never been a particularly dogmatic person (in so far as I tend to be open rather than rigid in the face of new ideas?), but at the same time I certainly think that philosophy has made me less dogmatic, especially with respect to the value of science, evolutionary theory and classical propositional logic (i.e. the standard anti-religious intellectual toolkit). Philosophy often tries to paint itself as a discipline which promotes personal development but I am inclined to think that personality will overcome the discipline in most cases.

Mind you, I could still remain a dogmatist of sorts and say 'If it is good enough for Kant, then it is good enough for me'.
 

Cookie182

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Haha, a bit of both perhaps? I have never been a particularly dogmatic person (in so far as I tend to be open rather than rigid in the face of new ideas?), but at the same time I certainly think that philosophy has made me less dogmatic, especially with respect to the value of science, evolutionary theory and classical propositional logic (i.e. the standard anti-religious intellectual toolkit). Philosophy often tries to paint itself as a discipline which promotes personal development but I am inclined to think that personality will overcome the discipline in most cases.

Mind you, I could still remain a dogmatist of sorts and say 'If it is good enough for Kant, then it is good enough for me'.
Haha, pierce brosnan

Oh this is a question I need to forward to the psychologist certainly. I'm not "immature" but I'm self-admittedly "excited" by dogmatism: there is something beautiful about feeling your closer then others to the "truth" in the same way you feel if you had extra hints towards a test which you witheld from a cohort. I would like to achieve this calmness, though as you say, personality can be a bitch to fight. The problem is, dogmatists now have public idols such as Hitchens and I admit its very easy to fall into his web with such a punchy vernacular & wit.

I only argue using classical propositional logic, but like most, its all I know (and even then I know little). Saving the details is there another form of logic which supersedes it?

How did you feel in respect to the value of science while studying medicine?

I mean technically you could call into question the "truth" of everything your learning. The "facts" in your pharmacology class are only facts under the system of enquiry we have created (yet I know of no other way). Is the scientific method arbitary? What do you think of the real "truth"?
 

Cookie182

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Also, you seem to love Kant.

Don't you think the whole "categorical imperative" would fail pragmatically?
 

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