Can someone please critique my proposal? (1 Viewer)

[nahian]

Re: Assessment: Proposal

HI everyone
could a former e-ext2 student give me an opinion about my proposal
thank you

 

[goldendawn]

- good idea/concept but needs to be refined (become more specific); this will probably happen as your work progresses
- some language is too 'flowery': "artfully achieved" / "optimistically accomplished". Keep it simple, keep it concise, keep it logical to show some sense of CONTROL over language
- You need to be more specific when you refer to post colonial theory, Said and othering; what books have u looked at/researched thus far -- has this led to changes in form/style/content choice?? again be more specific - these discourses are huge so you need to zero in on a smaller area
.

This is my honest opinion about these comments:
1) Your language is not "too flowery"; it's controlled, but nonetheless interesting and expressive, and I would treat the above criticism of it as stylistic bias. Write in the register which you find most comfortable and enjoyable.
2) A proposal is not meant to be a personal reference encyclopaedia. It is simply meant to help you establish a foundation for your ideas, from which you can proceed to gather specific information. Teachers are not looking for minutiae, here - they want to see the big-picture.
3) I nonetheless agree with gibbo987 that you need more information about form. The syllabus stresses the relationship between form and meaning. Do you intend to write your critical response in a more casual style, like that of Orwell, or do you intend to write using an "Oxford" style, or in a more contemporary way, like Ursula Le Guin? Who has influenced your approach?

 

[glitterfairy]

Ok, my turn for critique (only first few paragraphs though)

For starters, you're using all these adjectives that don't need to be there, eg "This aim will optimistically be accomplished" - this reads like an Eng Adv essay where someone got a little too thesaurus-happy. I don't want you to impress me by using as many multi-syllable words as possible, I want you to tell me what you're doing and to convince me that it's a good idea that you can pursue well.

Let's go back to the intro. You don't give your title until the third or fourth line (is it really that unimportant?!), you also don't give your chosen medium until several paragraphs down. Think realistically. If you were a writer trying to sell your idea to a publisher, what would you begin with? "I plan on writing a _______ called ________ that is about _______". That's the same way your proposal should work- your idea should ALREADY be well planned and your proposal should reflect this by putting all the really important details at the top.

*Just for the record, I'm cool with the underlining of texts - I was taught to do that as well Either way it's a minor font issue. *

My other big beef with this proposal is that you do a lot of "I'll do this" and "I'll use that" and "I'll touch on this" but you're not really giving me anything solid other than claims. Islamic references aside, you could be writing any given postmodern work. Additionally, the overuse of unneccessary words ("and systematically examine them through literary devices, and ultimately, allow my critique to be artfully integrated " <-- modesty is a virtue) really just makes it look like you're not quite sure yourself what you're doing, and are resorting to cheap tactics to make it look good. Unfortunately your teachers will see through this.

I cannot stress how important this is - even if you're not 100% you MUST make it look like you know what you are doing, and that you are heading in a clearly defined direction. You can make changes later but you gotta give me a clear idea of what you're doing! No publisher will write out a cheque to a writer who can't make that publisher "see" what they're intending to do. You will also loose valuable marks if you cannot make your teacher "see" what you're doing.

Don't just say you'll do things. Don't just say you'll use things. BE SPECIFIC. This is not Eng Adv - stating fancy words isn't going to get you places. You need to prove that you know what you're doing! That's the whole point of the proposal sweetheart - to prove that you know what you're doing, and you're going to go out and and do it.

My advice is to go back through your proposal. When you say you'll do something, explain how and why. Give examples - never just list concepts, and make sure everything is clear and to-the-point to assure effective communication between you and your audience.

 

[666_blessings]

More specifics, fewer redundancies.

 

[goldendawn]

That's all well and good, but they have been doing the course for nearly 5 months now...the reason i say write in detail with references to specific works / research is to show evidence of research and progress even at this early stage. anyone can throw about general terms about post colonial theory / focualt without knowing anything about what they actually mean. I'm assuming this guy/girl does and so wouldn't it be best to prove it to teachers?? Generalisations in ee2 normally show that someone doesn't really know what they want to do/achieve or doesn't really understand the basis of what they are talking about/proposing..

i may be wrong thats just my 2 cents-but i did get 50 so it must have worked for me...

"Generalisation" does not necessarily indicate that someone doesn't know where they are going or what they want to achieve. The opposite is often true.

Dropping your marks is irrelevant; a kind of inverted ad-hominem approach.

Ok, my turn for critique (only first few paragraphs though)

For starters, you're using all these adjectives that don't need to be there, eg "This aim will optimistically be accomplished" - this reads like an Eng Adv essay where someone got a little too thesaurus-happy. I don't want you to impress me by using as many multi-syllable words as possible, I want you to tell me what you're doing and to convince me that it's a good idea that you can pursue well.

Let's go back to the intro. You don't give your title until the third or fourth line (is it really that unimportant?!), you also don't give your chosen medium until several paragraphs down. Think realistically. If you were a writer trying to sell your idea to a publisher, what would you begin with? "I plan on writing a _______ called ________ that is about _______". That's the same way your proposal should work- your idea should ALREADY be well planned and your proposal should reflect this by putting all the really important details at the top.

*Just for the record, I'm cool with the underlining of texts - I was taught to do that as well Either way it's a minor font issue. *

My other big beef with this proposal is that you do a lot of "I'll do this" and "I'll use that" and "I'll touch on this" but you're not really giving me anything solid other than claims. Islamic references aside, you could be writing any given postmodern work. Additionally, the overuse of unneccessary words ("and systematically examine them through literary devices, and ultimately, allow my critique to be artfully integrated " <-- modesty is a virtue) really just makes it look like you're not quite sure yourself what you're doing, and are resorting to cheap tactics to make it look good. Unfortunately your teachers will see through this.

If you simply enjoy writing this way, "and systematically examine them through literary devices, and ultimately, allow my critique to be artfully integrated " then don't censor yourself. It makes perfect sense to me, and there are no enormous grammatical errors. Using adverbs is not a crime, and it all comes down to your preference and your rhythm. Either your teacher will appreciate your interest in language, or will say your writing is too contrived. The latter is a common misunderstanding of writers intentions. Also, I am sure that the teacher reads about a hundred proposals that all start with, "I want to write a critical response about this-that-and-the-other... ". You, however, start with your ideas and your process, which demonstrated to me that you were not only interested in your topic, but that your topic was fluid and had the potential to grow. A proposal is not a set-in-stone guide to how the Major Work will turn out.

 

[jhakka]

I've written all over your proposal. See attachments.

 

[glitterfairy]

"Generalisation" does not necessarily indicate that someone doesn't know where they are going or what they want to achieve. The opposite is often true.

Perhaps, but markers don't like to take risks (No-one likes to sit there and think "where is the line?"). Hence why the vast majority of EE2 teachers ask for formal, concise EE2 assessments, as do EE1 markers and Uni markers.

If you simply enjoy writing this way, "and systematically examine them through literary devices, and ultimately, allow my critique to be artfully integrated " then don't censor yourself. It makes perfect sense to me, and there are no enormous grammatical errors. Using adverbs is not a crime, and it all comes down to your preference and your rhythm.

The proposal is intended to be a formal report. Even if writing within this style is not your first love (for example, it's definately not my first love and I had to work very, very hard to get my report-writing skills up to scratch) you have to do it when required. And this is one of those times - save the creative writing for the major work.

Either your teacher will appreciate your interest in language, or will say your writing is too contrived. The latter is a common misunderstanding of writers intentions. Also, I am sure that the teacher reads about a hundred proposals that all start with, "I want to write a critical response about this-that-and-the-other... ". You, however, start with your ideas and your process, which demonstrated to me that you were not only interested in your topic, but that your topic was fluid and had the potential to grow. A proposal is not a set-in-stone guide to how the Major Work will turn out.

Playing devil's advocate here but I'd say a lot of "contrived" HSC reports (for any subject) are not "misinterpreted" - rather, they actually are contrived when the student isn't exactly sure of what they're saying and hence uses a lot of fancy words to try and make it look like they do. Again, it's vastly preferable to play safe and give them what they're asking for. Your creative outlet is the major work - NOT the assessments.

I'd agree that the teacher is used to the "I want to write a critical response about this-that-and-the-other... " format, and for good reason - because it's an upfront, concise "hey this is what I'm doing". And people don't just like this for a creative writing assessment - it goes for all forms of creative art. If you can't be clear and concise about what you're doing, no-one is going to hire you because they're not 100% sure that they approve of what you're doing (mainly because they can't quite understand what you're doing, or it takes too much effort to understand what you're doing). Now, your EE2 proposal is not quite the same as applying for a job but it runs along the same lines. If a teacher can't understand what you're doing (either because they're in a terrible mood or if the proposal itself required too much effort on the marker's behalf to understand what you're proposing) then you're not going to get good marks.

It's all about clear, effective communication. Get in there, say your thing, then end it.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[goldendawn]

The proposal is intended to be a formal report. Even if writing within this style is not your first love (for example, it's definately not my first love and I had to work very, very hard to get my report-writing skills up to scratch) you have to do it when required. And this is one of those times - save the creative writing for the major work.

A "formal report" is an entirely different structure that would require the use of topical headings and a concluding summary. It says no-where that the EE2 proposal requires plain language. It's the writers choice.

Playing devil's advocate here but I'd say a lot of "contrived" HSC reports (for any subject) are not "misinterpreted" - rather, they actually are contrived when the student isn't exactly sure of what they're saying and hence uses a lot of fancy words to try and make it look like they do. Again, it's vastly preferable to play safe and give them what they're asking for. Your creative outlet is the major work - NOT the assessments.

Truly "contrived" responses are typified by the incorrect use of language; syntactical and grammatical errors, misuse of words, etc, and are very easy to recognise. This is not evident in the above proposal. Your (or anyone elses) opinion about writing style is biased and should be taken with a grain of salt. It's my opinion, however, that the style indicates interest in the topic.

I'd agree that the teacher is used to the "I want to write a critical response about this-that-and-the-other... " format, and for good reason - because it's an upfront, concise "hey this is what I'm doing". And people don't just like this for a creative writing assessment - it goes for all forms of creative art. If you can't be clear and concise about what you're doing, no-one is going to hire you because they're not 100% sure that they approve of what you're doing (mainly because they can't quite understand what you're doing, or it takes too much effort to understand what you're doing). Now, your EE2 proposal is not quite the same as applying for a job but it runs along the same lines. If a teacher can't understand what you're doing (either because they're in a terrible mood or if the proposal itself required too much effort on the marker's behalf to understand what you're proposing) then you're not going to get good marks.

Life would be very frightening if you were constantly hobbling around the vicissitudes of someone else's mood. The English teachers responsibility is to approach each work in a clear frame of mind. Likewise, I found nothing in the proposal that was difficult to understand. Originality and imagination are what EE2 is about; if you are passionate about writing, there is nothing that says you can't express this passion through your writing, even in your proposal - as long as you adress it's main points. You are not doing EE2 to pander to a status quo. This isn't advanced. I think it's great that he's taken the initiative in his proposal to be creative - this is how we learn to better express ourselves. I am usually an advocate of clear and simple expression. I do not, however, believe that this is the only way that everyone should write. As long as the main points are adressed and there are no grammatical errors, style is up to the writer - even in the proposal!


PS: Nicely done, Justin - some really helpful comments in there!

 

[MedNez]

Your (or anyone elses) opinion about writing style is biased and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Noted;

It's my opinion, however, that the style indicates interest in the topic.

Looks like the pot feeling up the kettle to me!


If you wish to argue with a moderator of the forum- please do so in private without doing so in front of the author, article or works you are arguing about- it does nothing but weaken the credibility of the English Moderator body and standards of critique.

The role of benefactor is to help the community and support the moderator body, not contravene them. It's great you wish to discuss an opinion that you think may be flawed, but it is advisable to do so in a respectful manner in private.

 

[goldendawn]

Noted;



Looks like the pot feeling up the kettle to me!


If you wish to argue with a moderator of the forum- please do so in private without doing so in front of the author, article or works you are arguing about- it does nothing but weaken the credibility of the English Moderator body and standards of critique.

The role of benefactor is to help the community and support the moderator body, not contravene them. It's great you wish to discuss an opinion that you think may be flawed, but it is advisable to do so in a respectful manner in private.

Firstly, I never said that my opinion of style was the right one. I simply tried to express that every opinion of style should be taken with a grain of salt, and that it is up to the author to decide how to write (hence I qualified with, "it's my opinion"). I was under the impression that open discussion was an important part of BoS. I have said nothing that is either offensive or which attacks the administrative position of the moderator. It was never made clear to me that challenging a moderators position on a non-administrative issue violates the rules of the board. Why must it be taken to Private Messaging? Would it be possible for you to refer me to the page that outlines these rules?

 

[xeuyrawp]

Looks like the pot feeling up the kettle to me!


If you wish to argue with a moderator of the forum- please do so in private without doing so in front of the author, article or works you are arguing about- it does nothing but weaken the credibility of the English Moderator body and standards of critique.

The role of benefactor is to help the community and support the moderator body, not contravene them. It's great you wish to discuss an opinion that you think may be flawed, but it is advisable to do so in a respectful manner in private.

MedNez -- I'm sorry to add fuel to this fire, but I feel I must say something in this public sphere.

Lynn is not the authority in EE2 any more than AsyLum is the authority about HSC Ancient History. While Lynn and Mike are excellent moderators and are excellent with their knowledge of content, I doubt you'd ever hear them say 'We know best' when other opinions are being expressed -- especially since 1. other opinions should be ARGUED, not stamped out, and 2. since the general member community is very helpful and knowledgable. If Mike said something about Egypt that I thought was wrong, I'm sure he'd hope that I addressed my concerns, and so he should!

You misunderstand the point of being a moderator -- it's to guide discussion and not to provide a stamp of final authority. Lynn should and would agree with Marcus' call to put his point forward, regardless of who's right.

Last time I checked, becoming a moderator did not mean that one had to be an expert or final say -- you should encourage discussion, and if that results in an argument, moderators' other function (as police) comes into play. Before that point, moderators should engage with members in rational arguments and should lead discussion, not to say 'I don't agree with this. Thread closed.'

If a member wants to complain about a mod's actions, I would agree that the correct method should be private -- but in this case, Marcus was discussing content with a mod. This discussion should be public because it directly concerns everyone in the forum.

That being said, I said to Marcus, and I still think it, that he went around criticism the wrong way. Rather than arguing with gibbo, he should have firstly provided his own criticism of the proposal, and then addressed gibbo's post. Otherwise, the post just comes out as argumentative, when really it was constructive.

 

[glitterfairy]

Just to clear the air -

Yes, goldendawn is perfectly within his rights to state his opinion. If he crossed the line, the post would have already been deleted EDIT: Actually, maybe not - should someone question my mod abilities I actually think I'd leave the public callout up there and publicly defend myself in response.

I also just see the debate (should it continue) as going around in circles so as I've already said my piece, I'll leave it here. Hope this thread has been helpful in some way, nahian

 

[jusdorange]

i wish i'd posted my proposal on here when i did ext 2 - you got such detailed replies!
if you still need help i'll have a look at it tomorrow.

 

[jhakka]

As far as the argument about moderating goes:
I agree with Rob's points above, however what he fails to mention is the possibility that Alex may have misinterpreted the way the thread was going. Even mods are human and can make mistakes, and as I hold Alex in very high regard, I don't think he was going for the "She's a mod, so shut up" approach.

I believe that as far as discussing material in any subject area, all comments are valid and acceptable, so long as they are informed and reasonable. In this sense, neither Lynn or Marcus are in the wrong, however arguing for the sake of arguing is not cool.


As far as this thread goes, I would imagine that nahian wants a number of critiques from various users, but not necessarily critiques of the critiques. It's all well and good to have your opinion on how the assessment should be presented, but pistols at ten paces is not the way to go about stating it. Say it once and let the user in question make their own decision on the comments.

I have also decided to ban nahian for three weeks because he was the cause of the trouble.

Thank you.

Justin

PS: I was joking about the ban, by the way. Nahian is more than welcome to post here, and I hope he hasn't been frightened off by all the discussion.

 

[goldendawn]

I would like to say that I mean no ill will to Lynn, Med Nez, Gibbo, or anyone else for that matter . I would also like to apologise to Nahian for having hijacked the thread. Whilst I strongly believe in my right to present my opinion, I agree with Rob's and Justin's points, that a better way for me to go would have been to write a separate critique directed at Nahian that presented my point of view on the issues. In that vein, I promise to post up my critique in the next few days. . Thanks guys.

 

[nahian]

Thank you for all the people who gave an opinion i appreciate it
yehh i got my mark back and found the 'adjectives' used led to extreme high modality
also i needed to refer to the research more to my thesis
pretty dissapointed ahah 7/10
ah well need to improve alot
thanks again for the criticism helped me realise what i was doing wrong
when ya write it sometimes by trying to express your idea you go overboard in this case thats what happened to me


thanks AGAIN!

 

[nahian]

haha sorry
bit confused abt the posting
just saw ext2 proposal and slapped it on