Capitalism or Communism? (2 Viewers)

[ThanksBastards!]

ok I’m not an orthodox Marxist (as Comrade nathan seems to be), some of Trotsky’s theory I can respect but as of late I’ve been moving in a more anarchist direction, and like the guy with the anarchist (well arnarcho-syndicalist /anarcho-communist) flag as his dp i would point to Barcelona as a good example of what a good communist society would look like. but guys my under standing of the idea that the workers should take over the means of production seems rather democratic, the problem was the workers didn't size the means of production lenin (insert name here) did and then proceeded to establish a bureaucratic class to administer it that served only become a replacement for the Bourgeoisie

I think loquasagacious is making and absurd assertion that capitalism can not function without freedom. I look at it like this capitalism needs property, and capitalist property requires laws to protect it, laws require violence or the threat of violence to be worth any thing. Inherently my freedom to own shit regardless of weather I need it or use it will always conflict with some one else’s freedom to steal my aforementioned shit. Capitalism therefore restricts peoples freedom. think about it like this say I own a house I live in a different house and for what ever reason have left the other house vacant having not rented it to any body (for what ever reason) is it morally wrong for a person or persons to squat that house, and wouldn’t any action I take to enforce my "ownership" be a suppression of that persons freedoms?? capitalism coerces individuals into conformity as much as communism beaus capitalism makes it as hard as possible to live apart from the system. quoting Zack de la Rocha from RATM "the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

also I don’t believe withoutaface assertion that I can exercise control of my society through consuming, what happens if i decide that I don't believe that I'm not particularly attracted to my freedom to chose between coke and pepsi, how can I force my corporate overlords to listen to me if don't intend to consume in the first place. essentially any accountability in such a situation is those who only want a better product not a better system.

The people’s flag is deepest red
It shrouded oft our martyred dead
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their hearts’ blood dyed to every fold


Then raise the scarlet standard high
Beneath it’s folds we’ll live and die
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We’ll keep the red flag flying here

With heads uncovered swear we all
To bare it onward till we fall
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim
This song shall be our parting hymn​

 

[withoutaface]

also I don’t believe withoutaface assertion that I can exercise control of my society through consuming, what happens if i decide that I don't believe that I'm not particularly attracted to my freedom to chose between coke and pepsi, how can I force my corporate overlords to listen to me if don't intend to consume in the first place. essentially any accountability in such a situation is those who only want a better product not a better system.

If you consume neither, then the bottom falls out of the cola market.

 

[kokodamonkey]

If you consume neither, then the bottom falls out of the cola market.

2magic words "Consumer soverignty" people produce what is demanded. If people stop purchasing something, then it wont keep getting produced, because it wont sell! If people demand certaint things, then resources in an economy will be pushed towards producing those. If everyone stopped drinking coke and pepsi, the business's may remain but they'll be pushing other product lines..

 

[jimmayyy]

I look at it like this capitalism needs property, and capitalist property requires laws to protect it, laws require violence or the threat of violence to be worth any thing. Inherently my freedom to own shit regardless of weather I need it or use it will always conflict with some one else’s freedom to steal my aforementioned shit. Capitalism therefore restricts peoples freedom.

only because commies like you seek to break the law. if everyone respected authority, there would be no need for violence. you are looking at the whole thing from a very 19th century viewpoint. violence to enforce laws (especially property laws) is an extremely outdated issue.

you are splitting hairs with the freedom thing. freedom pertains first and foremost to your own freedom. metioned freedom (for example, your eg of owning a house) only conflicts with someone elses "freedom" to do something illegal (stealing it). its not a freedom if it breaks the law and conflicts with someone elses right, its a crime.

capitalism therefore PROMOTES peoples freedoms but putting in place laws (like you pointed out) for people to have the right to own things if they so deserve it.

 

[jimmayyy]

communism was a great idea.. IN THEORY. lynch the commiez plz

communism isnt even a good idea in theory, because collectivism goes directly again the basic human freedom to be richer than your neighbour if you work harder for it. its social ideas are even more liberty-denying.

its a shit idea in theory and even shitter idea in practice.

 

[ubernuton]

only because commies like you seek to break the law. if everyone respected authority, there would be no need for violence. you are looking at the whole thing from a very 19th century viewpoint. violence to enforce laws (especially property laws) is an extremely outdated issue.

you are splitting hairs with the freedom thing. freedom pertains first and foremost to your own freedom. metioned freedom (for example, your eg of owning a house) only conflicts with someone elses "freedom" to do something illegal (stealing it). its not a freedom if it breaks the law and conflicts with someone elses right, its a crime.

capitalism therefore PROMOTES peoples freedoms but putting in place laws (like you pointed out) for people to have the right to own things if they so deserve it.

if everyone respected authority we would all be mindless drones inculding you so u would even have this idea

 

[ubernuton]

communism isnt even a good idea in theory, because collectivism goes directly again the basic human freedom to be richer than your neighbour if you work harder for it. its social ideas are even more liberty-denying.

its a shit idea in theory and even shitter idea in practice.

what about those who didn't earn there money
capitalism doesn't help those who work harder it helps those who are lucky

 

[jimmayyy]

what about those who didn't earn there money
capitalism doesn't help those who work harder it helps those who are lucky

no, capitalism allows people to gain more, if they can. it doesnt ask for money or property to be turned over to the state and divided up amongst those to whom have no claim to it.

if you earnt one million dollars a year, and your neighbour earn $40, 000, would you want the state to take both your paychecks and split it 50/50 between the two of you? no, u would want the money you have earnt because you deserve it. if you earn more than your neighbour, for whatever reason, you should be entitled to it and all the benifits that come with it. fucking with that is fucking with fundamental freedoms and human rights, which are unfuckwithable.

 

[jimmayyy]

if everyone respected authority we would all be mindless drones inculding you so u would even have this idea

once again, your extremist views don't fare well in this debate, for there is a vast difference between respecting authority and being a mindless drone. i, for instance, do reasonably well at the discipline side of schooling because i've been taught to RESPECT authority. meaning, i try not to be late to class, i don't smart mouth teachers etc etc. i am in no way a "drone" because i have made peace with the fact that there is establishment and authority in this world.

 

[withoutaface]

if everyone respected authority we would all be mindless drones inculding you so u would even have this idea

Yeah, we don't respect authority, so let's advocate a humungus government the size of a fucking xbox to rule over all our transactions.

 

[ubernuton]

no, capitalism allows people to gain more, if they can. it doesnt ask for money or property to be turned over to the state and divided up amongst those to whom have no claim to it.

if you earnt one million dollars a year, and your neighbour earn $40, 000, would you want the state to take both your paychecks and split it 50/50 between the two of you? no, u would want the money you have earnt because you deserve it. if you earn more than your neighbour, for whatever reason, you should be entitled to it and all the benifits that come with it. fucking with that is fucking with fundamental freedoms and human rights, which are unfuckwithable.

if done on a world wide scale then hell yes i would
other wise i would use the extra money to fund the revolution

 

[ubernuton]

once again, your extremist views don't fare well in this debate, for there is a vast difference between respecting authority and being a mindless drone. i, for instance, do reasonably well at the discipline side of schooling because i've been taught to RESPECT authority. meaning, i try not to be late to class, i don't smart mouth teachers etc etc. i am in no way a "drone" because i have made peace with the fact that there is establishment and authority in this world.

so what change do u intend on bringing about by sitting back peacefully?

 

[jimmayyy]

so what change do u intend on bringing about by sitting back peacefully?

1) your argument hinges on the assurance that there is a constant need for change. history has shown that long periods of stability (whatever the social, economic and politial viewpoints that have prevailed happen to be) have benifitted countries enormously. constant change leads to certain disaster. there should be some halfway house. change where change is neccessary

2) when such neccessary call for change occurs, there are numerous avenues i can explore within the law before reverting to revolution. people who jump straight to the extreme often lack the intelligence, patience or moral status to try the legal means first.

 

[jimmayyy]

if done on a world wide scale then hell yes i would
other wise i would use the extra money to fund the revolution

well there, it seems, lies the great difference in thinking between you and i. i believe each man should receive what he deserves. you, apparently, do not.

 

[Season]

random point:

Of course if you're greedy you can be materialistic and communist

and we have China YAY



Personally my relatives have only been disadvantaged/killed/persecuted/put in concentration camps by communism. So I'm anti this whole regime and nothing could change my mind. I support the idea of freedom of speech and all the rest that democracy contains. I don't care if its materialistic or capitalist, at least people are free within it.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

random point:

Of course if you're greedy you can be materialistic and communist

and we have China YAY



Personally my relatives have only been disadvantaged/killed/persecuted/put in concentration camps by communism. So I'm anti this whole regime and nothing could change my mind. I support the idea of freedom of speech and all the rest that democracy contains. I don't care if its materialistic or capitalist, at least people are free within it.

Your view of Communism is too much coloured by your own experience and not by the research literature which suggests that everyone would be better off under Communism.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Personally my relatives have only been disadvantaged/killed/persecuted/put in concentration camps by communism.

No no, but the Chinese communist government. There's a difference.

 

[MaNiElla]

No no, but the Chinese communist government. There's a difference.

A big difference imo.

 

[Matt1120]

Communism is immpossible....only its transitioning step, socialism. the middle class takes control in the name of the working class then instead of getting rid of their power like they should have to achieve communism. they keep it and just make lousy totalitarian systems i.e Stalin

 

[Iron]

Communism is immpossible....only its transitioning step, socialism. the middle class takes control in the name of the working class then instead of getting rid of their power like they should have to achieve communism. they keep it and just make lousy totalitarian systems i.e Stalin

Surely a temporary dictatorship is necessary to safeguard the revolution?