Child rape, violence in remote communities (1 Viewer)

[Captain Gh3y]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...1147545529313.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap3

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...-first-war-zone/2006/05/22/1148150189144.html

WHY can we look after, say, East Timor or the Solomon Islands but not enforce our own laws at home?

 

[banco55]

25 year mandatory sentence for child rape would be a good start.

 

[Generator]

So would the alleviation of poverty in these areas - it's not a cop-out, but it's something else that must be considered if the situation is to be properly addressed.

 

[banco55]

So would the alleviation of poverty in these areas - it's not a cop-out, but it's something else that must be considered if the situation is to be properly addressed.

Through what policies though? It's becoming increasingly clear that the remote communities aren't viable economically. I think it's dubious to find a link between rape etc. and poverty. There are quite a few people on the dole (and there was a lot more 15 years ago) and very few are raping children etc. If a defence lawyer tried to raise the fact that a convicted white rapist was unemployed at the time of the offence and this was somehow a mitigating circumstance he'd be laughed out of court and rightly so.

 

[Generator]

Leaving aside the idea that 'economic viability' should determine the scale and location of such settlements, I take it that you are ignoring the pathetic housing and health conditions that face many indigenous Australians? Poverty in such cases is real, not relative, and next to nothing will be achieved if the focus merely deals with the law and order aspect as opposed to the the pathetic state of indigenous Australia in its entirety.

 

[banco55]

Leaving aside the idea that 'economic viability' should determine the scale and location of such settlements, I take it that you are ignoring the pathetic housing and health conditions that face many indigenous Australians? Poverty in such cases is real, not relative, and next to nothing will be achieved if the focus merely deals with the law and order aspect as opposed to the the pathetic state of indigenous Australia in its entirety.

I don't see how you can say on the one hand that economic viability should not determine the scale and location of such settlements and on the other hand say that poverty is a major problem. If remote Aboriginal communities can't generate jobs than it's hardly surprising there's widespread poverty in those communities. The whole "law and order" won't be enough is true but it's also being used as an excuse for inaction for years. Putting child rapists in jail for 20 years would be a damn good start. At least that way we know they won't be abusing any more kids for a long time.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

They have to really get tough on this and pour resources, rather than welfare, into the area. A good start would be getting the abused women and children out of there. I was told that Aboriginal children are not allowed to be fostered by non-Aboriginals, why is that?

They need to bring these people to the cities in order to give them new lives, medical treatment and chances of employment. Psychological assessment would be a good thing. I'm all for help that ISN'T just throwing money at the problem.

I don't understand why child rape - or rape at all - has become such an ingrained part of that culture though.

Seems pretty obvious doesn't it?

The law and order aspect likely only comes about as a result of the poverty. If there are no jobs there, then paying for healthcare and housing is just pouring money down a black hole (no pun intended, because the same result would occur if you stuck any kind of people in the same situation - see Macquarie Fields, etc.).

I mean, the Government, State and Federal, Liberal and Labor, are funding the continued existence of a segregated third world country within our own where there's no education, jobs or incentive to get them. And it's happening because of an ideology that basically says a certain group of people want to live differently from us because of their skin colour. I just don't think the little girls would agree.

 

[AlleyCat]

at my university i saw a poster that said:
"The Liberal's attack on Aboriginal communities: preparing for a new stolen generation?"
inviting people to protest against the proposition that the abused children are taken out of the environment in which they are being abused.

i was quite shocked that these people couldn't see past fighting tactics to the greater good, but maybe that's just me.

if everyone's too scared of "another stolen generation" or being deemed racist, i can't see how anything will be done about it.

they need to get the women and children out of there, and fast. no time for bullshit diplomacy.

 

[withoutaface]

Seems pretty obvious doesn't it?

The law and order aspect likely only comes about as a result of the poverty. If there are no jobs there, then paying for healthcare and housing is just pouring money down a black hole (no pun intended, because the same result would occur if you stuck any kind of people in the same situation - see Macquarie Fields, etc.).

I mean, the Government, State and Federal, Liberal and Labor, are funding the continued existence of a segregated third world country within our own where there's no education, jobs or incentive to get them. And it's happening because of an ideology that basically says a certain group of people want to live differently from us because of their skin colour. I just don't think the little girls would agree.

They lived fine out there without government welfare 200 years ago didn't they? Resources should not be poured into these communities, and if they can't sustain themselves then the occupants of such settlements should move closer to where jobs do exist.

 

[banco55]

Seems pretty obvious doesn't it?

The law and order aspect likely only comes about as a result of the poverty. If there are no jobs there, then paying for healthcare and housing is just pouring money down a black hole (no pun intended, because the same result would occur if you stuck any kind of people in the same situation - see Macquarie Fields, etc.).

I mean, the Government, State and Federal, Liberal and Labor, are funding the continued existence of a segregated third world country within our own where there's no education, jobs or incentive to get them. And it's happening because of an ideology that basically says a certain group of people want to live differently from us because of their skin colour. I just don't think the little girls would agree.

It's a bit of a chicken and an egg thing with regards to poverty and law and order. Are they poor due to lack of jobs or are they poor due to a pathological culture? ARe they way over represented in crime statistics due to poverty or because of a pathological culture? Remember crime in western socities was considerably lower when they were poorer. Crime really started to pick up in western societies in the '60's when the western world had never been richer.

 

[Generator]

Remember crime in western socities was considerably lower when they were poorer. Crime really started to pick up in western societies in the '60's when the western world had never been richer.

Banco, keep in mind that there are a number of other factors at play - the number of people in society, the nature of the policing and justice systems (such as the number of and role of the polce and what actually constitutes a crime), the extent to which crimes are reported, the way in which the wealth is distributed, etc. Please, don't simplify such a complex issue (again).

 

[banco55]

Banco, keep in mind that there are a number of other factors at play - the number of people in society, the nature of the policing and justice systems (such as the number of and role of the polce and what actually constitutes a crime), the extent to which crimes are reported, the way in which the wealth is distributed, etc. Please, don't simplify such a complex issue (again).

It's no more reductive than saying: "oh it's the poverty" or "racism" as leftwingers have been saying for 30 years. The policies that have come out of that attitude have been really sucessful.

 

[Iron]

Crime really started to pick up in western societies in the '60's when the western world had never been richer.

I find the doctors and the sages
Have differ'd in all climes and ages,
And two in fifty scarce agree
On what is pure morality.

Thomas Moore "Morality"
Crimes change with the times.

Who's saying that Aboriginals have the same material aspirations as Westerners? It's not like this is a universal principle.
As an aside, this has been rather a nasty excuse for long-surpressed anti-abo sentiments to resurface

 

[Captain Gh3y]

They lived fine out there without government welfare 200 years ago didn't they? Resources should not be poured into these communities, and if they can't sustain themselves then the occupants of such settlements should move closer to where jobs do exist.

I don't know enough to say, but some would argue that the rape and such existed under tribal law 200 years ago, too. The resources shouldn't be poured into the settlements, but I think some welfare or resources of some kind would be well used assissting them to 'move closer to where jobs do exist'.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

"The Liberal's attack on Aboriginal communities: preparing for a new stolen generation?"
inviting people to protest against the proposition that the abused children are taken out of the environment in which they are being abused.

i was quite shocked that these people couldn't see past fighting tactics to the greater good, but maybe that's just me.

if everyone's too scared of "another stolen generation" or being deemed racist, i can't see how anything will be done about it.

they need to get the women and children out of there, and fast. no time for bullshit diplomacy.

---

Who's saying that Aboriginals have the same material aspirations as Westerners? It's not like this is a universal principle.
As an aside, this has been rather a nasty excuse for long-surpressed anti-abo sentiments to resurface

IMHO the 'anti-abo' sentiments are coming from the people who put up the posters/organise protests and are using the words 'stolen generation' to stop kids from being saved.

You are grouping people by the colour of their skin, as if all Westeners (presumably people of European extraction?) have the same 'material aspirations' (not necessarily true) and all Aboriginals have aspirations to live in poverty and abuse.

I would think any person would 'aspire' or at least want, to live in conditions roughly in accordance with the various Human Rights declarations that exist.

 

[Iron]

---


IMHO the 'anti-abo' sentiments are coming from the people who put up the posters/organise protests and are using the words 'stolen generation' to stop kids from being saved.

You are grouping people by the colour of their skin, as if all Westeners (presumably people of European extraction?) have the same 'material aspirations' (not necessarily true) and all Aboriginals have aspirations to live in poverty and abuse.

I would think any person would 'aspire' or at least want, to live in conditions roughly in accordance with the various Human Rights declarations that exist.

One of the big lessons from the Stolen Generation is to be cautious in uprooting these people. Community is everything for these guys. The heart of the problem needs to be addressed, rather than alienating children from family/culture whatever, after any abuse has occured.

Central to the violence is the utterly corrupting effect alcohol & other drugs have had on the communities. There have been credible case studies that show a correlation between the two. Remove the drugs and the business interests that perpetuate their sale, and you remove loads of the problem. This is a state responsibility and cannot be flung totally on Aboriginals.

Part of the reason they live in remote areas w/o jobs is because they're on traditional land around sacred sites. It's silly to say they should leave for economic reasons.

Materialism in its current form is very much an American invention, and isnt as old as some think. Living in peace/security is of course a human right. But I dont really believe that they should be forced to conform to an imported way of life beyond this.

 

[withoutaface]

They can live on their sacred sites as they have always lived, but you can't have your cake and eat it too, hence they shouldn't expect all the things european settlement brought to this continent to be dropped at their doorstep if they choose to stay in these sacred sites. Regardless, if parents are allowing/participating in the rape or beating of members of their own familes, then such people should be thrown into gaol and/or the children removed, because they obviously can't take care of them properly.

 

[Iron]

Agreed. The Welfare mentality doesnt help. From a few interviews, the recurring complaint they make seems to be that they dont get enough money.

I suppose that the dignity of their former times - men being able to provide food/protect families etc has gone. Escape sought in drugs.
Crisis of Aboriginal masculinity combined with negative European imports and the identity/world view confrontation in light of Christianity and Science.
I mean, not many would argue that this is anything but a collapsed society we're dealing with.

 

[loquasagacious]

The question is how to deal with it?? Certainly not a straightforeward question.

Leave them be and we will be acused of creating a third world situation.
Prohibit alcohol/petrol/etc and we are acused of being paternalistic.
Remove abused children and suddenly we're 'stealing a generation'.
Tell them all to move to the city and we're assimilationists.

This doens't leave much room to maneouver.

Personally I'm siding (predicatably enough) with Justin.

Just like I dont think we should be supporting farmers/etc with welfare I don't think we should be supporting aborigines. You want all the advantages of living in a city then move to one.

The only area where we have difficulty conceptually here is if we do declare a "do things as you've always done" sort of policy can we still enforce law? Having said no welfare, live the traditional life, etc does enforcing 'our' laws conflict with this?

Returning to the point I was making my approach would be:

Abandon condiseration of Tribal law. Raping children etc is inexcusable (and no I don't care whether anyone out there sees this as asserting my morals as universal and forcing them on others).

Cut off welfare. Completely end 'sit down money' (Noel Pearsons term).

Encourage 'migrant work' eg one programme i read about late last year saw unemployed aboriginals flown from cape york to victoria/SA to pick oranges or somesuch. The pros being they earn money through work (restores masculinity) and fruit that the rest of us refused to pick gets picked. Oh and this was a completely voluntary programme not new-age slavery. Also the company paid for the flights, accomodation and food.

Throw money at them to leave completely. Scholarships to city schools, govt housing in cities, etc etc. I can't remember who it was now but I recall one commentator some while ago advocating giving them $50,000 cash if they moved to the city and at that point they simply became one of us. Eligible for the same things as us, in the same priority etc. I think this is worth considering.

 

[Iron]

It's not good enough to simply imprison family members who abuse others. You need to cut at the heart of the issue. And I dont think that rape/violence has previously been ignored out of respect of 'tribal law'. Of course they'd be arrested. The problem is their remoteness (the recent solution being more police).

They have a fundermental right to chose where to live, especially for cultural/traditional reasons. I dont want to get into this, but the unique link to the land, corresponding stories and communities are culturally enriching for us and the rest of the world. They aren't animals.

Costello was saying that their communities need an economic base relevant today - contrasting their communities with pioneer country towns, established for and thriving from wool/wheat whatever. But of course Aboriginals played a major role in, say, raising cattle on the old, huge gentry farms of yesteryear. If anything, the advances in agricultural technology rendered the significant Aboriginal role redundant. Is the state going to watch them starve? No. They just took their children to town, which failed monumentally.

Creating some incentive behind the welfare is the best bet and is currently going on (welfare pending school attendance etc). Aside from that, more investment in tourism. Some communities also do quite well out of leasing native title to mining companies etc, although this doesnt create work. I dont think that I can see the Native American solution of Casino building and self-exploitation taking off.

Oh, and fruit picking is masculating? I'd preference the petrol-can abandon to pass the time any, and every, day.