Could someone please clarify my ideas of UAI and scaling?? (2 Viewers)

[me121]

A scaled mean of 25.0 (on a 1-unit basis) means that the candidature of the course was average, and hence that the course had average scaling. Courses with scaled means above 25.0 had above average scaling. (From BOS scaling section)

hmmm... i'm not quite sure what is meant by that extract, but i think that it help to give an indication of how subjects scale, RELATIVE to each other.

Not really sure what your graph represents, cuz thats not a scaling graph and all that is is a random graph you made up to somehow represent scaling. Thing is, thats not how scaling works. I heard scaling graph looks like a bell curve but i havent seen it so im not going to comment on that one.

It IS a scaling graph, I just didn't base it on real data. It IS how scaling works. Its NOT a bell curve. For example,
aligned mark 50.0 48.0 45.0 41.0 37.0 32.5
scaled mark 39.7 37.1 30.3 23.5 15.9 9.2

this data was taken from a Scaling report from UAC

If you plot that you get,

Now, does that look like a bell curve to you?, it doesn't even look like its part of a bell curve.

Scaling curves have no set function. Also, not that we only know for sure what happens at the points, we do not know what happens in between, i have just approximated it with linear interpolation so that you can see the general shape.

I have a stack of compiled information on about 8 subjects, indicating various raw marks and their eventual scaled marks.

I find it terribly hard to believe that you have the "various raw marks and their eventual scaled marks". Its more likely that you have some relations for aligned marks and scaled marks. UAC, only published some of the dots on the curve not the whole scaling curve. and they only publish the aligned/scaled mark relationship. since the Board does not publish the raw/aligned relation, and numerous legal attempts have been made for access to this data, i find it hard to believe that you have all this.

And i can tell you, at every mark range, the scaled mark is lower than the raw mark, and it evens out when it hits around 95 (raw mark). Only exception i saw was 4U Maths, which at every Raw mark range, it gave a higher scaled mark.

because a lot of the subjects scale below that normal line, i think it would not be appropriate to compare everything to that normal line.

 

[runnable]

hmmm... i'm not quite sure what is meant by that extract, but i think that it help to give an indication of how subjects scale, RELATIVE to each other.



It IS a scaling graph, I just didn't base it on real data. It IS how scaling works. Its NOT a bell curve. For example,
aligned mark 50.0 48.0 45.0 41.0 37.0 32.5
scaled mark 39.7 37.1 30.3 23.5 15.9 9.2

this data was taken from a Scaling report from UAC

If you plot that you get,

Now, does that look like a bell curve to you?, it doesn't even look like its part of a bell curve.

Scaling curves have no set function. Also, not that we only know for sure what happens at the points, we do not know what happens in between, i have just approximated it with linear interpolation so that you can see the general shape.

I find it terribly hard to believe that you have the "various raw marks and their eventual scaled marks". Its more likely that you have some relations for aligned marks and scaled marks. UAC, only published some of the dots on the curve not the whole scaling curve. and they only publish the aligned/scaled mark relationship. since the Board does not publish the raw/aligned relation, and numerous legal attempts have been made for access to this data, i find it hard to believe that you have all this.



because a lot of the subjects scale below that normal line, i think it would not be appropriate to compare everything to that normal line.

When i talk about the scaling curve i mean more like compared to 1 on the Y axis (ie 1 is no scaling, raw mark is what you get). Thus it may fluctuate between around 1.1-0.8 etc. It may well be a bell curve.

What i have is my tutor's compiled results of his students. He gets the Raw External Mark for a student and finds out what his/her scaled final external mark was. And it was exactly how i described.

Imagine a bell curve. The lower end Raw Marks get hardly scaled, the middle gets influenced by scaling the most. And as you get to high end mark (95 as i suggested) it flattens out again to show scaling loses its effect again.

 

[me121]

When i talk about the scaling curve i mean more like compared to 1 on the Y axis (ie 1 is no scaling, raw mark is what you get). Thus it may fluctuate between around 1.1-0.8 etc. It may well be a bell curve.

That is exactly the same as my scaling graphics, except that you plot the distance between the normal line (line joining 0,0 and 50,50) and the point. I disagree that you would get a bell curve. If you think i'm wrong, post the evidence.

What i have is my tutor's compiled results of his students. He gets the Raw External Mark for a student and finds out what his/her scaled final external mark was. And it was exactly how i described.

I highly doubt that your tutor receives his students raw exam marks.

Imagine a bell curve. The lower end Raw Marks get hardly scaled, the middle gets influenced by scaling the most. And as you get to high end mark (95 as i suggested) it flattens out again to show scaling loses its effect again.

But what do you consider "no scaling". Thats the big issue of this whole discussion. From the sounds of things you consider no scaling to be the raw mark = scaled mark (or even aligned = scaled). I am saying that this should not be considered no scaling. Although technically it is no scaling, because the UAI is a rank, I think that the "no scaling" curve should be a bit lower, more representative of the averages.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Sry but i call bullshit. Scaling measures the individual course across every course. And thats obviously what im talking about. Eg, IPT scaled down compared to Maths EXT 1

Person A:
EXT 2 English : 90
EXT 1 English: 90
Adv English: 90
Maths EXT2: 90
Maths EXT1: 90
Economics: 90

Person B:
Std English: 90
Gen Maths: 90
IPT: 90
Biology: 90
Bus Studies: 90

Please do not tell me their UAI will be the same. Having the same mark, yet having different UAIs. What distinguished both candidates. Yes scaling of subjects, INDIVIDUAL SUBJECTS.

Those in denial of scaling, please wake up. And those who thinks that scaling is so great and can scale 4U Maths from 60 to 90 also wake up.

Of course they won't get the same UAI. Student A isn't even eligible for a UAI. [comment]Yeah, look at the eligibility criteria for a UAI. Extension units do not count as separate subjects. That's the reason why Student A won't get a UAI.[/comment]

 

[runnable]

Yeah you would think that a student that did maths ext 1 and 2 would also be doing 2U maths.

Before you go telling me that I should 'get a better picture of scaling', why don't you stop obsessing and looking to much into scaling and start studying. After all its not as if knowing more and researching about scaling is going to increase your marks ... studying will.

Sry im only a responder on this thread, im not interested at all in scaling as i dun really care, i will do the best and it will take me where it can take me.

Maths Ext 1 and Ext 2 does not require you to do 2U Maths. EXT1 + EXT2 amount to 4 units. If you also did 2U Maths, that will be 6 units of maths? lol

And most (external) HSC exams have 2U and 4U on the same day at the same time. Strange how you have to do both at the same time.

 

[runnable]

That is exactly the same as my scaling graphics, except that you plot the distance between the normal line (line joining 0,0 and 50,50) and the point. I disagree that you would get a bell curve. If you think i'm wrong, post the evidence.



I highly doubt that your tutor receives his students raw exam marks.



But what do you consider "no scaling". Thats the big issue of this whole discussion. From the sounds of things you consider no scaling to be the raw mark = scaled mark (or even aligned = scaled). I am saying that this should not be considered no scaling. Although technically it is no scaling, because the UAI is a rank, I think that the "no scaling" curve should be a bit lower, more representative of the averages.

Can you put some thought into this? Tutor will obviously communicate with students after the HSC and go in-depth analysing the Raw marks, scaled marks etc. He obviously doesnt receive it from the Board of Studies if thats what you are thinking.

The UAI although a rank, is a rank of your 10 Unit Aggregate. Your External Scaled Mark and Internal Aligned Mark of 10 Units go towards this Aggregate. This aggregate is what your UAI and your rank is based on.

 

[Kujah]

But the fact is that the student will never receive his/her raw mark at all whatsoever.

 

[SoulSearcher]

But the fact is that the student will never receive his/her raw mark at all whatsoever.

There is a process to receive raw HSC marks, and people have gotten their raw marks in the past, it just has become incredibly rare (if at all possible) to obtain raw marks from the Board of Studies nowdays. I know me121 received his exam scripts back (for which subjects were they again?) but as for raw marks themselves, the Board of Studies just doesn't seem to give them out nowdays.

 

[runnable]

Of course they won't get the same UAI. Student A isn't even eligible for a UAI. [comment]Yeah, look at the eligibility criteria for a UAI. Extension units do not count as separate subjects. That's the reason why Student A won't get a UAI.[/comment]

• To be eligible for a UAI in 2007 a student must satisfactorily complete at least 10 units of UAI courses. These UAI courses must include at least:
• eight units from Category A courses
• two units of English
• three Board Developed courses of two units or greater
• four subjects.

15140 English Advanced 2 English
15160 HSC English Extension 1 1 English
15170 HSC English Extension 2 1 English

seems like seperate courses to me. But i may well be wrong

 

[SoulSearcher]

• To be eligible for a UAI in 2007 a student must satisfactorily complete at least 10 units of UAI courses. These UAI courses must include at least:
• eight units from Category A courses
• two units of English
• three Board Developed courses of two units or greater
• four subjects.

15140 English Advanced 2 English
15160 HSC English Extension 1 1 English
15170 HSC English Extension 2 1 English

seems like seperate courses to me. But i may well be wrong

From the information that I've gathered, they don't count extension courses as seperate subjects from the originial course that they stem from.

 

[runnable]

trust me dude they are seperate course but they are the same subject. didn't they go over this in your school or something?

Course Number, Course Name, Unit value, Subject Area.

15140 English Advanced 2 English
15160 HSC English Extension 1 1 English
15170 HSC English Extension 2 1 English

At least provide me with real information other than "trust me dude" and i gladly will

 

[runnable]

From the information that I've gathered, they don't count extension courses as seperate subjects from the originial course that they stem from.

Hmm ok i believe you but i will appreciate if you can link me somewhere so i can read it? Cuz all the stuff ive read shows they are actually seperate courses. Eg EXT1 Maths and EXT2 Maths are seperate etc.

 

[runnable]

yeah at our school we had this whole seminar thing were they told us that this. i thought they did that for all schools.

wtf? seriously be anymore vague? Link me to some Board Of Studies, UAC, anywhere reputable to verify this. I will be very happy to find out.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Hmm ok i believe you but i will appreciate if you can link me somewhere so i can read it? Cuz all the stuff ive read shows they are actually seperate courses. Eg EXT1 Maths and EXT2 Maths are seperate etc.

I will try and find a link to this information for you, I gathered this from talking with various people from the Board of Studies and UAC leading me to this conclusion.

 

[runnable]

I will try and find a link to this information for you, I gathered this from talking with various people from the Board of Studies and UAC leading me to this conclusion.

Oh ok ty lots, appreciate it. Will really like to find out.

 

[runnable]

Oh and i just remembered that a guy i know did 4U Maths, 4U Eng, Chemistry and got a UAI :O

 

[runnable]

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/manuals/pdf_doc/ace_manual.pdf

go to page 59

haha beat that SS

i win

err ok, where is page 59 does it say that Extension courses do not count as seperate courses? lol

P.S i cant believe you made me download that lol :K

 

[me121]

Maths Ext 1 and Ext 2 does not require you to do 2U Maths. EXT1 + EXT2 amount to 4 units. If you also did 2U Maths, that will be 6 units of maths? lol

And most (external) HSC exams have 2U and 4U on the same day at the same time. Strange how you have to do both at the same time.

If you do 4U maths, you do not recieve, and cannot recieve a mark for 2u maths.

There is a process to receive raw HSC marks, and people have gotten their raw marks in the past, it just has become incredibly rare (if at all possible) to obtain raw marks from the Board of Studies nowdays. I know me121 received his exam scripts back (for which subjects were they again?) but as for raw marks themselves, the Board of Studies just doesn't seem to give them out nowdays.

The process that most people would go though is to request these under the FOI act. Thats right, people have obtained raw marks in the past, but it is a lot harder nowdays to get them. Yes, I got my scripts back, for all my courses (see my sig below for the list). Although I had my scripts you still don't know how they were marked and what raw marks i got exactly. For some of the courses IF i had a HSC marker i could probably get a good approximation though. And for maths, I am pretty sure I estimated my raw marks fairly closely, because 1 they write your marks in the paper, and the Board left some reminatnts of these on my paper when they gave me my scripts. Also its maths, so you either have the answer or not, there is little subjectivity.

The Board did not give me my raw marks, and I decided not to pursue the matter to the ADT or the Ombudsman.

Can you put some thought into this? Tutor will obviously communicate with students after the HSC and go in-depth analysing the Raw marks, scaled marks etc. He obviously doesnt receive it from the Board of Studies if thats what you are thinking.

The tutor, will not get the scripts (unless every student put in a FOI and got back there scripts, (and I very much doubt that, and i can verify that later from the Boards annual report.)).

The fact is that you can't find out your raw mark like this. Even with the script it is impossible to find out exactly. And with English, and humanities, you pretty much have no hope.

The UAI although a rank, is a rank of your 10 Unit Aggregate. Your External Scaled Mark and Internal Aligned Mark of 10 Units go towards this Aggregate. This aggregate is what your UAI and your rank is based on.

i know that, your point is..
also your internal mark is scaled as well.

 

[runnable]

If you do 4U maths, you do not recieve, and cannot recieve a mark for 2u maths.



The process that most people would go though is to request these under the FOI act. Thats right, people have obtained raw marks in the past, but it is a lot harder nowdays to get them. Yes, I got my scripts back, for all my courses (see my sig below for the list). Although I had my scripts you still don't know how they were marked and what raw marks i got exactly. For some of the courses IF i had a HSC marker i could probably get a good approximation though. And for maths, I am pretty sure I estimated my raw marks fairly closely, because 1 they write your marks in the paper, and the Board left some reminatnts of these on my paper when they gave me my scripts. Also its maths, so you either have the answer or not, there is little subjectivity.

The Board did not give me my raw marks, and I decided not to pursue the matter to the ADT or the Ombudsman.



The tutor, will not get the scripts (unless every student put in a FOI and got back there scripts, (and I very much doubt that, and i can verify that later from the Boards annual report.)).

The fact is that you can't find out your raw mark like this. Even with the script it is impossible to find out exactly. And with English, and humanities, you pretty much have no hope.


i know that, your point is..
also your internal mark is scaled as well.

Yea i was merely clarifying on the 4U/2U business.

I might be wrong in thinking he got the Raw->Scaled marks. He might have got the Exam Mark->Scaled Mark. As that is what you get in the Record of Achievement.

My point about the aggregate is that a higher scaling subject scales in a way that it increases your aggregate. So the "everyone is equal as scaling is relative since UAI is a rank" is not true.

 

[me121]

I might be wrong in thinking he got the Raw->Scaled marks. He might have got the Exam Mark->Scaled Mark. As that is what you get in the Record of Achievement.

Everyone finds out their exam mark, and the Board notifies the school system, and school, for people who do the HSC with a private tutor, i guess the tutor gets it too.

However people don't get told Exam Mark->Scaled Mark. They can only get approximations, as UAC only publihsed some points on the graph, not every point, so you cannot know what happens in between the points that are given by UAC.

My point about the aggregate is that a higher scaling subject scales in a way that it increases your aggregate. So the "everyone is equal as scaling is relative since UAI is a rank" is not true.

Just say that there are onyl two subjects, Maths and Physics.

If maths always scaled below the normal 45degree line that you call average, and so did physics, except maths was slighly above the physics line. then just because maths scales you down relative to this normal line doesn't mean its bad, because relative to the other courses, physucs, its high.