Don't ban the Burkha, embrace it (1 Viewer)

Rothbard

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Wrote this for menzies house, Muslims have I gotten anything wrong?

It’s been a wonderful month of absurdities thus far, we’ve seen Brazil and Argentina knocked out of the world cup, we’ve seen Rudd toppled and replaced basically overnight, but the craziest thing we’ve seen all month is that wonderful whacky NSW politician Fred Nile coming out for female’s rights. No, not for abortion, or contraception, or for better processes in dealing with equal employment opportunities, but their inherent right to not be be-burkhad. Fred Nile, the original captain crazy has taken a moral and principled stand saying we need to ban the Burkha because women are being treated like cattle.

I’m not denying that there are a few cases where this is happening, but they’re almost certainly the edge cases. The other argument made on Menzies House by the Hon Bernardi, was that banning the Burkha is necessary because otherwise people will wear them to rob banks. Not only do we set the real police on them when they rob the bank, they’ll have to answer to the fashion police as well. Really intelligent legislative thinking, targeting the edge cases to make people who are uneducated about statistics think that something’s being done. Sure the Burkha is a really, really divisive issue. It’s designed to be, that’s how the whole thing works. Women have covered themselves for centuries at the behest of modesty laws or religious texts, and only recently (the past 50 years or so) have we seen a shift away from this to a more self-determined view of how women interact with the greater world.

Personally I find the Burkha to be dehumanising, not just removing any sense of sexual attraction in the situation, but delving into uncanny valley territory. That and the fact that women in the blue ones look like ghosts from Pac-Man should be enough to give anyone pause over the issue. It’s downright odd interacting with people wearing Burkhas because it feels so awkward, it’s so unnatural, there’s a giant absence of body language and it’s really disturbing. I get that. There are two ways to go about dealing with this cultural divide, a legislative one and a community-oriented one. The primary issue with some Australian Muslims is one we are causing with this legislation and our attitude to them, we’re effectively ghettoising them and allowing the kind of strict religious adherence to come to the fore. Legislating against religious dress is not the way to deal with practices that we don’t find particularly beneficial. We effectively push those who do want to force all women to wear the dress further underground but give them a larger audience of aggrieved Muslims who feel teir right for religious practice has been impeded upon, because it has.

Most of these people came to this country because it offers them a greater deal of social and economic freedoms than their home country. Australia is free from war, widespread disease and famine and free from a roaming religious police, these are all points in its favour. What we need to encourage is a dialogue between the Australian Muslim and Non-Muslim community, to show that we don’t just ‘tolerate’ (which is a nasty word and a nasty concept) but embrace their ideas and beliefs, because we want to westernize these individuals. What do you think is more likely to happen, a rapid islamisation of Australia if we embrace and interact with Australian Muslims on a greater level, or a greater Liberalisation of their interactions with the greater Australian community.

This new crusade with religious fervour and people strictly adhering to religious rules is effectively a new development over the past 15 years in response to somewhat warranted trepidation in the face of thousands of terrorist attacks performed by people who claim to be doing the acts in the name of Islam. It’d be downright absurd if we weren’t somewhat worried about their motivations. As religion has become a lynch pin and a targeted point of Australian Muslims they have embraced it in response rather than distancing themselves from it because they feel it really characterizes who they are. In short, by continually attacking the Islamic community in Australia, we’re effectively providing a path for a potential radicalization of some elements within the population. The real goal for the Liberal party and Australian society in general is to continually interact with the Islamic community and, again, make them feel welcome and that they’re a part of our society. Invite them to party events, register them in your local divisions, organize events at mosques where MPs talk to them and invite their community to come to sports games and fairs. By showing people how open and welcoming Western Civilization is by acting in an open and welcoming way, Australians as a whole will be able to make substantial inroads into reducing the potential paths to radicalization. This embrace of their culture and discussion of their values in an open and honest way will almost certainly promote a Westernising of the Islamic community in Australia, and lead to an overall harmonious society for all of us to enjoy.
 

nomoar

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You've raised some really good points, and it was good...until you spoke about 'Westernising Islam'. It's impossible to assimilate Muslims and quite offensive to even consider it. Embracing =/= Westernising. There needs to be greater, open communication. Rather than westernisation, it should be a process of de-radicalising the minority radical. Please note that there already exists internal conflict within the Muslim community regarding the burqa and rigidness of some.

Furthermore, Muslims make less than two percent of the population. The majority of them are liberal and moderate. Rapid Islamicisation has not occurred, is not occurring and will not occur. This is an excessive overstatement.

And Fred Niles is a joke. No one should be taking him seriously.

 
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Haustier

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Muslims strictly adhering to their rules is no way a new development, especially not over the last 15 years. It has always existed. It's just that we pay more attention to it now because we realize it is a threat to the West. Why is it a threat to the West? All highly religious have in them the idea that their faith is 100% correct and above human created laws. Along with this the Muslims have the idea of the Ummah (all Muslims) joined together under the worldwide caliphate.

You may think that "westernizing" Muslims should be our goal instead of pushing them to be more religious, in order to destroy their ideas of imminent Western collapse and Islamic world domination. I'm pretty liberal but I'd prefer for the government to ban the Burqa and pass other anti-Religious measures to have Australia divided into "them" (Muslims) and "us" (All seculars and some of the more benign religious groups) and have them pushed away so far from Australian and Western ideals (religious criticism and skepticism, freedom, secularism, democracy, all of which are nonexistent in Islam).

This would make mass deportation much easier if the average Australian knows he has such an alien and implacable enemy.
 

nomoar

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Muslims strictly adhering to their rules is no way a new development, especially not over the last 15 years. It has always existed. It's just that we pay more attention to it now because we realize it is a threat to the West. Why is it a threat to the West? All highly religious have in them the idea that their faith is 100% correct and above human created laws. Along with this the Muslims have the idea of the Ummah (all Muslims) joined together under the worldwide caliphate.

You may think that "westernizing" Muslims should be our goal instead of pushing them to be more religious, in order to destroy their ideas of imminent Western collapse and Islamic world domination. I'm pretty liberal but I'd prefer for the government to ban the Burqa and pass other anti-Religious measures to have Australia divided into "them" (Muslims) and "us" (All seculars and some of the more benign religious groups) and have them pushed away so far from Australian and Western ideals (religious criticism and skepticism, freedom, secularism, democracy, all of which are nonexistent in Islam).

This would make mass deportation much easier if the average Australian knows he has such an alien and implacable enemy.
Cool story
 

Haustier

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The point is you can't really force positive change like that. Christians attempted to change the backward black hat and suit wearing Jews in Europe, but they were ungrateful. Look what happened to them.
 

Rothbard

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The point I'm making is lead by example, not by legislation
 

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Muslims strictly adhering to their rules is no way a new development, especially not over the last 15 years. It has always existed. It's just that we pay more attention to it now because we realize it is a threat to the West. Why is it a threat to the West? All highly religious have in them the idea that their faith is 100% correct and above human created laws. Along with this the Muslims have the idea of the Ummah (all Muslims) joined together under the worldwide caliphate.

You may think that "westernizing" Muslims should be our goal instead of pushing them to be more religious, in order to destroy their ideas of imminent Western collapse and Islamic world domination. I'm pretty liberal but I'd prefer for the government to ban the Burqa and pass other anti-Religious measures to have Australia divided into "them" (Muslims) and "us" (All seculars and some of the more benign religious groups) and have them pushed away so far from Australian and Western ideals (religious criticism and skepticism, freedom, secularism, democracy, all of which are nonexistent in Islam).

This would make mass deportation much easier if the average Australian knows he has such an alien and implacable enemy.
You sound just as bad as the hardcore islamic fundamentalists.
 

Rothbard

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That's what prompted me to write this before all of the rightists went fucking spastic saying that we should all deport muslims.

Look there are two ways we can deal with this:

We can make that sort of speech illegal and deport people who talk like that (Downright idiotic and barbaric making speech illegal)

Or we can engage the community so that people in the community respond to these claims with 'look democracy has its flaws (it does it's a fucking sham and it's the tyranny of the majority that allows retarded laws like the burkha ban to be even discussed, combined with the fact we have very few individual liberties enshrined by the consitution in Australia) but we're a part of this system and we're working within it and you're an idiot who doesn't represent us'.

The problems are twofold, that the Muslims are letting nutcases portray them in the media (and it's not because of some giant media-conspiracy against muslims, it's because stories about crazy people who want to kill us all sell more papers than stories about nice tolerant muslims, don't be an idiot, occam's razor wins every time) and that people like this are even getting a real audience in Australia. They're getting an audience like this because we're marginalising a community within Australia. The Chinese immigrants no longer bind feet or have more female abortions than male abortions, yeah? Immigrant populations assimilate over time, this includes a moderation of their religious beliefs and how they act culturally. A lot of what we say is barbaric about islam is actually cultural, and the more that we show the west is a better and more open culture, the more we all achieve.

I think religion is absolutely downright stupid, but I think being a bigoted xenophobe and basically pressuring a social group into radicalism because you choose to be scared of what's different for you is beyond retarded.
 

Haustier

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Democracy is fine. We're mainly secular. There's rights for all, there's religious freedom and there's free speech. The Muslims, who subscribe to the religion with the most violent, backward and impossible- to-change character inherently consider this-Australia, the West-a tyranny because it's not their system.

Underneath your retarded idealistic views of a wonderland where Muslims decide drop their barbarian core religious beliefs effectively all you are doing is advocating a solution in which one objectively good "tyranny" (Secular Western democracy) is swapped for another, Islam. Yeah I think Australia needs some more Saudi Arabia and Iran. None of it has to do with culture by the way.
 

Haustier

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Democracy is fine. We're mainly secular. There's rights for all, there's religious freedom and there's free speech. The Muslims, who subscribe to the religion with the most violent, backward and impossible- to-change character inherently consider this-Australia, the West-a tyranny because it's not their system.

Underneath your retarded idealistic views of a wonderland where Muslims decide drop their barbarian core religious beliefs effectively all you are doing is advocating a solution in which one objectively good "tyranny" (Secular Western democracy) is swapped for another, Islam. Yeah I think Australia needs some more Saudi Arabia and Iran. None of it has to do with culture by the way.

You also fail to even scratch the surface of religion being an inherent threat to democracy which a mass deportation/genocide would fix.
 
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Rothbard

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There's no free speech in Australia, please cite.

Also the Constitution says we can have no religious test for office or instate a state religion but that's it.
 

Rothbard

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Democracy is not fine, it allows the majority to use the apparatus of state to seize the property of others and enforce their idiotic views on other people.
 

Chemical Ali

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Democracy is fine. We're mainly secular. There's rights for all, there's religious freedom and there's free speech. The Muslims, who subscribe to the religion with the most violent, backward and impossible- to-change character inherently consider this-Australia, the West-a tyranny because it's not their system.

Underneath your retarded idealistic views of a wonderland where Muslims decide drop their barbarian core religious beliefs effectively all you are doing is advocating a solution in which one objectively good "tyranny" (Secular Western democracy) is swapped for another, Islam. Yeah I think Australia needs some more Saudi Arabia and Iran. None of it has to do with culture by the way.
ITT: no one knows what's in our constitution or not

also, our head of state is still the head of a church :rolleyes:
 
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Rothbard

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Yeah Mr Ali I was going to point out that Irony but chose not to.

Section 116 m8
 

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