Ext math bad judge of ability (2 Viewers)

[nakata]

As is said, this system of us having final exams, doesnt show the true nature of the 'intelligence' you could say. It does benefit those that memorise, although i do find it hard for maths. I maths you get different questions all the times, which involves appling the concept of a formula, and when one does that, then it show that they have the understanding. In my school, those that UNDERSTAND the concepts usually go better then those that memorise, because what happens if a quesition comes up, and its something they didnt memorise? unless you studied and memorised everything, which i tend to do in other subjects (hehe, this is called cramming) then you will go considerably better then those that have an understanding.

But put it this way. If it wasnt for the teachers, who actually KNOW THE concepts of maths or wateva, then the students would have nothing to memorise at all. Which means, if you have a crap teacher, your stuffed.

 

[Zeech]

Bon, thats exactly what im talking about. But imagine you have some people ripping up the course and getting a++ marks, remembering that Simpsons rule is h/3 because in the simpsons, there are three children!! Based on the concept of assessment (after all, the HSC is assessing someone's education), should someone who has a better understanding of the mathematical concepts such as yourself have a better aproach to the questions and therefore get higher marks than someone who would use a bland memorisation?

Ethically yes, but..
Realistically not.

 

[-=«MÄLÅÇhïtÊ»=-]

err...since when did a test not require memory?

Say for instance chemistry and physics. All that theory.
What ur telling me u dont need to remember all that stuff? Like u juz derive the answer on the spot or sumfin do u? In that case, u are one piece of discriminated talent buddy.

I suppose u complain about skool as well. Coz they teach you sumfin to memorise and that makes u disadvantaged coz u can work everything out without learning it in the first place.

 

[BlackJack]

i guess it depends on the amount of work you put in and memorise, even with the understanding. I know that people with understanding and don't study are likely to make sillier mistakes and get lower/bogus marks.
I know a guy who already knows everything about year 12 maths years ago, all the concepts. But he stuffs up at exams all the time.

 

[nakata]

But of course, you do have a point, this 'final exams' we do, is not to test out intelligence, but like you say, just how well everyone can cram and memorise. Obviously those that have studied and done work throughout the year, have less to memorise or cram. And those that have an understanding of the subject, have no need to cram or memorise, they only need to revise and learn new things.

It is only one test, and after that, there isnt any more. The BOS having these texts are trying to test how well we understand the concepts. But i guess, the truth is, it is becoming a 'cramming' test rather then a 'maths' or wateva test.

 

[macca202]

have we all taken a lesson in philophy or somthing? This thread has the longest replies iv seen. Long = Boring (b= L)
the hsc reallly comes down to uai. Memorising is still work and the hsc ShOULD award this, so whats the problem. Uni's want smart ppl, but also ppl who are committed - to learning. Or do they just want ppl do pay full fees, i dont know.

 

[spice girl]

Originally posted by Zeech
Ask the no1 student in my ext2 maths class about the physical aplication of resisted motion and they'd be lost. Ask them how to write out the answer and they're 100%.

There's a problem with cross-disciplinary learning here. Maths ext2 ppl don't know how to apply mechanics and etc into the real world BECAUSE they don't have to. That's for the physicists.

Just out of interest, what school do u go to?

In our school, often we can separate like maths-good students from the rest because of 4unit level questions - because 4unit questions are designed to separate those who memorise techniques and plug in numbers, from those who actually know how to solve the problems through their understanding.

Not to mention that a lot of ppl still get pretty high marks by cramming methods, etc, but they don't really last long "up there".

As for science, I think they've got their priorities all wrong. It's redundant aiming for "effective communication", because it goes without saying that that's what written exams are all about: a student communicating ideas to the marker. Effective communication = writing answers properly. It's a pity that the science ppl don't test further than that. The modern world looks for "breadth", not "depth". An outcome like: "solid understanding of science concepts" would be a nice idea.

Anyway, I'll end my rant here for the time being...I've never seen two html pages of full rhetoric (on MATHS too!)

 

[spice girl]

Originally posted by macca202
Uni's want smart ppl, but also ppl who are committed - to learning.

Actually I've had a talk with some science professor once, he's pissed too about the science HSC at NSW, because the students that top the HSC science don't really have the science skills needed to do well at Uni science. So they think they do well at science at high school and they find out (too late) at uni that real science is different to high school science; makes ppl choose the wrong courses, as well as makes uni choose the wrong people to do them.

Hope they don't think of putting their dirty hands on the maths syllabus in the future...it'll really fuck up the next generation.

 

[-=«MÄLÅÇhïtÊ»=-]

uno wat they shoudl do to stop cramming
have all the exams packed together in like a week instead of a month so ppl cant study between exams.

if wanna go into detail about science
science syllabus = way to stop azns getting top marks
same wiv compulsory english in uai

 

[BlackJack]

True... this is starting to look like a respone to our english change trials section 3: a forum response(!).
The journalists really shoudl have a look at this thread ...

That's another real problem, the cross-disciplinary subjects like mechanics. To understand it you really have to have a grounding in physics. This comes up regularly with new degrees in uni, proving our system isn't efficient anymore.
I mean, what have we learnt from maths? A bunch of formulas, or the way the world, architecture and gambling works?
That is entirely how a new system must go about. Students knowing ho it works will get consistently better results if they provide the effort too.

And, btw, unis will keep you forever if you pay full fees , the smart people just advertise them.

The algorithms in SDD are good, they require you to solve a problem you've never seen before using concepts. =)

Oooo... I like that...

 

[BlackJack]

Originally posted by -=MLhtʻ=-
uno wat they shoudl do to stop cramming
have all the exams packed together in like a week instead of a month so ppl cant study between exams.

if wanna go into detail about science
science syllabus = way to stop azns getting top marks
same wiv compulsory english in uai

A, I don't think they can. People will always cram. Placing all exams in one week will filter out these people, sure, but it'll really stress out the entire student body. I've been exhausted by multiple difficult exams on one day befopre.

B, I'm an asian, so I know all about the effects of these 'changes' to the syllabus... *grrr...* But I've actually found that it could stress out the non-asians more, because the asians they're targetting will just work harder. Unlike me .
And I spell better than all the other kids at my primary schools , even high school, I've come above average because of technical skills from ESL. it's the logic and reasoning that's the problem...

 

[spice girl]

Bon, a net forum is not a place to show off your spelling skills. Get over it!

 

[Zeech]

Yeah bon your right!
SDD is my fav subject. Why? Because it creates new problems and unfarmiliar situations that must be solved by understanding and using/applying this to create a solution.

What we learn in school can only be used and extended on at Uni by those students that have an understanding of their work. Some kid cant go and learn a bubble sort and think that theyre fine for the exam. This type of testing is ideal for the application and representation of a students knowlege and understanding. it is this type of examination that will prepare a student for university level study.

I know for sure that some of the top-dogs in my maths class will be blown away by the level of understanding required at Uni. This no doubt is the combined reason that so many 1st year uni students fail (that and the fact theyre sick of studying and have a break for a year while pretending to be studying at uni)

An outcome like: "solid understanding of science concepts" would be a nice idea.

Exactly!
I think that not just the science courses, but maths and others (e.g. IPT) should be altered in exactly the way you describe.


There are syllabus outcomes like "write down the real part Re(z) and the imaginary part Img(z) of a complex number z=x+iy" These types of points are almost trivial in it's nature. shouldnt it have an acompanying syllabus statement like "student must understand the impact of each part" or something? Not just be able towrite it down..

These types of outcomes and requisites, for extension courses especially, discourage the students to gain an understanding, and encourage them just to "remember" how to do it!
A kid now is going to say "hey i'd better not care about finding out what Re(z) is, just how to write it down like the syllabus says."

 

[BlackJack]

I've got a friend who studies just like that for physics. He's got reason to, he's only interested in computing, and is an absolute specialist. He always goes to me: "Well, what does the syllabus say?" Or "The syllabus says..." when we're discussing something we're supposed to learn. I think its working though, he reads up the different textbooks to get the drift of the question as well (and topped physics this year, I think, don't remember, don't care).
As to "write down the real part Re(z) and the imaginary part Img(z) of a complex number z=x+iy", it's like all the 'identify...' dotpoints... they really should relate it to implications.
"the students understands that expressing z in the form of Re(z) and Im(z) means that these two numbers must be real." or something...

Yes Bon, thankyou. Been practising.

 

[McLake]

Originally posted by BlackJack
I've got a friend who studies just like that for physics. He's got reason to, he's only interested in computing, and is an absolute specialist.

Clarence?

I agree. The syllabus was written with the intention for students to gain a deeper understanding of the subject, yet cramming and memorising is rewared in a test.

I think there needs to be more communication between subjects so that maths/physics conceptsare taught simulatiosuly, physics/chemisrty, engineering/physics/maths, etc. I know this will cause difficulty for those who DON'T do both subjects, but it will help those who do to gain ag reater understanding and insight into "why are we learning this anyway?"

 

[BlackJack]

Correct on all counts. Our international olympian is very objective-oriented.
(and stop beating me in post numbers. I'm trying to get 400 before you )
this is what a trial of a new education system is trying to do. They've done away with 'maths', 'physics'... and replaced it with modules that concentrate on multiple fields applying to one area like.. telecommunications or something. I don't remember much, I think I've got the article somewhere though...

 

[spice girl]

Originally posted by BlackJack
Correct on all counts. Our international olympian is very objective-oriented.

Who?

 

[McLake]

Originally posted by spice girl

Who?

C. Dang

 

[spice girl]

Ahh...I've tracked you down. Great work

I know a couple of int'l olympians at my school too...but they're all science ones...

 

[BlackJack]

Yes... I went to the science olympiad sites and had a look at the people...

There's usually a couplle of memebers from Ruse for the sciences... don't know why
But Clarence does informatics olympiads instead.