For those wanting to study Law... (2 Viewers)

[Frigid]

nice article
who roped you in to doing that rofl

jim with his flattering and sycophantic words... it's enough to tempt the devil LOL

 

[wrong_turn]

hhmm jim and his seductive voice eh?

well on another note, does it really matter which law school you came out of? though people say that it doesnt matter, i think there is some forethought whether you are good, even before you even ahve the interview.

 

[santaslayer]

hhmm jim and his seductive voice eh?

well on another note, does it really matter which law school you came out of? though people say that it doesnt matter, i think there is some forethought whether you are good, even before you even ahve the interview.

On the third page of THIS thread. By the Frigid Himself.

to settle the ol' 'my law school is better than yours' debate

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Law schools - hankering for a ranking

Australian law schools love the kudos associated with a strong showing in rankings surveys. The latest attempt to rank Australian law schools was recently released evoking in some schools glee, in others gloom. FindLaw investigates this latest rankings survey and asks whether rankings really matter at all.
The 2004 edition of The Good Universities Guide hit the newsstands and bookshops a few weeks ago. In 448 pages it endeavours to comprehensively rank Australian universities and the degree courses they offer.

Part 1 ranks each university according to a wide variety of academic, social and statistical criteria. Not surprisingly members of the Group of Eight coalition were rated as the most prestigious institutions in Australia. The so-called Group of Eight comprises The University of Adelaide, The Australian National University, The University of Melbourne, Monash University, The University of New South Wales, The University of Queensland, The University of Sydney and The University of Western Australia. For many prospective students this is where their analysis of Australian universities starts and stops.

Part 2 analyses 30 broad fields of study including law. The quality or otherwise of various law schools was measured against criteria including students’ perceptions of teaching quality, their overall satisfaction with the course, their success in getting a job and their starting salary. According to these measures the Law Schools of The University of Newcastle, The University of Wollongong, The University of New South Wales and Bond University are the best in Australia; at least according to the Good Guide’s comparison of student surveys.

However, as the Good Guide concedes their ranking and rating is merely an indicator and does not present the full picture.

“There is on going debate among academics about the reliability, use and validity of the Course Experience Questionnaire (CEQ). Some institutions argue that the CEQ has not been designed for the purposes of inter-institutional comparisons, CEQ data do not necessarily provide an accurate comparison of differences in the quality of education or the level of student satisfaction from institution to institution,” says the Guide on page 41.

The assumption is that the leading law schools could be objectively and qualitatively identified, as if such identification really matters.

In preparing this story FindLaw spoke with students, staff and graduates from numerous Australian law schools and with lawyers and human resources professionals from a number of Australian law firms. While students and graduates understandably exhibited some parochial pride and marketing professionals were eager to put forward a positive spin on their particular school, there was apparent indifference about rankings and comparisons. FindLaw found that good students were more interested in making the most of their opportunities, whichever institution they studied at, and law firms simply wanted well-rounded students.

Julia Sweeney was admitted as a Legal Practitioner in 2001 after three and a half years studying with the Law Extension Committee of the University of Sydney (‘LEC’), an institution not mentioned in the Good Guide. Sweeney received her Diploma of Law from the Legal Practitioners Admission Board and after a career as a registered nurse is now employed as a medical negligence lawyer with Sydney firm Craddock Murray Neumann.

I asked Julia whether her qualification, a Diploma of Law vis-a-vis a Bachelor of Laws, was a barrier to securing a position as a lawyer?

“As a mature-age student this was a major concern to me. However, my experience and that of my friends was quite the opposite. Having a Diploma in Law has not ever been a barrier at all, in fact, when I have gone for interviews it was always viewed positively.

“In December 1999 I organized a panel of speakers to address LEC students. The opening address was given by Justice Windeyer and the speakers included: John Kelly, a Partner with Mallesons Stephen Jacques; Siobhain Mullany, a Criminal Lawyer with the Legal Aid Commission; and Michael Ryan a Partner with McClellands. Some of the speakers had completed the LEC course but most were employers who were all unanimous in their opinion that the course was not a barrier to employment and, in fact, often gave candidates a leading edge because of the perceived demands of the course,” Sweeney replied.

A survey of several law firms revealed that, whereas there were formerly distinct preferences for graduates from certain law schools this is no longer the case. Adele Brady, Director of Human Resources at Freehills identified a student with the right package of skills as the sort of candidate Freehills is seeking. I asked Brady what she meant by the “right package of skills”?

“The particular school a new recruit went to is not as important anymore, and is not the reason why people succeed at Freehills.

“We are looking for more than just core legal skills when we recruit. Our research from clients shows that they want to work with lawyers who understand their business. Australian law schools are justifiably recognised worldwide for the high quality of their legal training, but we need to select graduates who also have interpersonal and communications skills. Most students only do selected commercial law subjects at university anyway, and we have a comprehensive graduate-training program to develop these skills. Primarily we are looking for the best students who have a package of skills and the ability to develop into the commercially aware lawyers our clients demand. We find these good graduates in all universities, and it's important to look everywhere for the top people . . . [T]hese days we can't exclude any school from our search for the best and brightest. This is because candidates with the right combination of skills can thrive and rise to the top in any one of them,” Brady said.

Claire Storey, Human Resources Consultant for Baker & McKenzie, concurred with Brady on this issue saying that it ultimately came down to the talent of the individual not the law school they attended.

“In our graduates we look for high academic achievement, energy, enthusiasm, entrepreneurial skills and a good grasp of external business environments. Ultimately, a lawyer’s career is driven by the individual,” Storey said.

Adele Brady conceded that Freehills had its preferences when recruiting in the 1980’s and 1990’s. Brady stressed however, that preferential treatment is no longer part of Freehills recruitment culture.

FindLaw was impressed by this admission because as our readers appreciate it is tough enough to compete for professional positions simply on one’s merits. Known to the author was a man who in the mid-1990’s completed a Diploma of Law (LEC) with outstanding results. He had an Economics degree and several years experience working in a major insurance company. Yet despite being qualified for the positions he applied for, he could not secure a position in a medium or large firm in Sydney. The consensus amongst his colleagues and friends remains that his LEC qualification was viewed unfavourably.

While FindLaw has no reason to doubt the veracity of Freehills’ claim, we wonder aloud whether things have really changed across the board in the recruiting practices of law firms? Would the likes of Justice Michael McHugh, Justice Margaret Beazley, Justice David Ireland and David Nock SC, all LEC graduates, secure positions if they were applying for graduate positions in 2004?

But lest FindLaw makes too much of its egalitarian analysis of Australian law schools it is important to acknowledge two very telling points made to us. Some law schools by the very fact that entry to them is fiercely competitive tend to produce extraordinarily gifted graduates. Nowhere is this more apparent than the University of New South Wales Law School, which has produced five Rhodes Scholars in the last seven years (and at least one other Runner-Up that the author is aware of).

Secondly, there is a perception that four universities dominate in the recruitment stakes: The University of Melbourne, Monash University, The University of Sydney and The University of New South Wales. But according to Claire Storey perception is not reality.

“There are naturally higher numbers of recruits from the larger law schools (eg. Melbourne, Monash, Sydney and New South Wales), however these are in proportion (as a percentage of total applicants from each school) to the number of applications received. [Although] the bulk of Baker & McKenzie’s recruits come from The University of New South Wales, The University of Sydney, Monash University and The University of Melbourne . . . we have also taken a significant number of clerks from Deakin University, The University of Technology, The University of Queensland, Bond University and The Australian National University,” Storey said.

So we come back to where we started – do law school rankings matter at all? To concerned parents who cough up $22.00 to buy the Good Guide – definitely; to the terminally elite – naturally; to well-performed graduates – no; and to the law firms – evidently not.

 

[Frigid]

well on another note, does it really matter which law school you came out of? though people say that it doesnt matter, i think there is some forethought whether you are good, even before you even ahve the interview.

let's put it this way: if you get straight D-average and a WAM of 80, a first-class honours law degree, i think 99.1% of firms will not CARE...

after that, it's all up to individual performance in interview and all that crap about 'culture fit', whether you're just a nerd or whether you can communicate well and why you wanna be in that law firm.

 

[LaraB]

let's put it this way: if you get straight D-average and a WAM of 80, a first-class honours law degree, i think 99.1% of firms will not CARE...

after that, it's all up to individual performance in interview and all that crap about 'culture fit', whether you're just a nerd or whether you can communicate well and why you wanna be in that law firm.

exactly - add to that a good interview technique/image and a few links never hurts

what's the point in a prestigious uni if you barely pass and cant communicate with people?

 

[monzi]

Mehh

One of my Asian friends at uni I met this year is in her first year of a biz/law degree. Her sister who obtained her Law degree from Macquarie University was working for Mallesons Stephen Jaques and is now working for Clayton Utz. She also has another sister who works on the Telstra Legal Team.

I asked my friend how she did it, and she said it was all pure work experience and uni/life balance. Her sister all through her degree obtained a credit average but had extensive work experience. Her sister did voluntary work and Legal Admin work, she worked very hard in the work part and got the job.

My friend said her sister was able to show the firm that she could balance her law degree with work experience. And from what I've heard she works very long hours but she says she enjoys it.

 

[jessika]

I asked my friend how she did it, and she said it was all pure work experience and uni/life balance. Her sister all through her degree obtained a credit average but had extensive work experience. Her sister did voluntary work and Legal Admin work, she worked very hard in the work part and got the job.

My friend said her sister was able to show the firm that she could balance her law degree with work experience. And from what I've heard she works very long hours but she says she enjoys it.

lol, I hope the firms see it like that when I graduate...Somehow I dont think so though. Although I work two jobs and work my butt off, neither is related to law.
lol, I'll just have to dazzle them with my personality

 

[monzi]

Mehh

No Jessika, it doesn't really matter, not all her jobs were related to law and she still managed to secure positions with top tier firms. I think most employers these days want to see that uni/life balance not just pure study.

I think you have a good chance if you believe in yourself.

 

[Ramses]

hi, was wondering if any1 knows how SCU(southern cross uni) or UNE (uni of new england) ranks in the scale of things for law.

 

[011]

exactly - add to that a good interview technique/image and a few links never hurts

what's the point in a prestigious uni if you barely pass and cant communicate with people?

Yeah. Then they find out you can't do the work you're employed to do all so well, though you may still manage to dazzle those in the office with your communication skills.

Sorry but I'm firmly in the 'marks count' category. As long as you're not a hermetic weirdo, I think foremost the ability to demonstrate that you know your stuff counts more or just as much as other considerations. How could they not care if you have honours (in reply to frigid)? To me it's counter-intuitive.

 

[LaraB]

Yeah. Then they find out you can't do the work you're employed to do all so well, though you may still manage to dazzle those in the office with your communication skills.

Sorry but I'm firmly in the 'marks count' category. As long as you're not a hermetic weirdo, I think foremost the ability to demonstrate that you know your stuff counts more or just as much as other considerations. How could they not care if you have honours (in reply to frigid)? To me it's counter-intuitive.

don't criticise unless you actually read what people say..
um..nice to see you're agreeing with me... i said that marks are most important and the others a what push you ahead of the rest of the people going for the job...

i agreed withum..frigid i think? in saying that UNI doesnt matter if you have good marks... and then added that good interview technique, links, good communication add to this...

i'm not an idiot...i don't think and never said that you can bullshit your way through an interview and that academics dont count...geez...

i think nearly everyone here agreed marks do count...the argument was whether the uni you went to mattered...prettye much everyone agreed that the uni doesnt really matter if you get good marks..so obviously that means we think marks are important...

you even quoted me! saying what's the point in a prestigious uni if you barely pass and cant communicate with people?

 

[011]

don't criticise unless you actually read what people say..
um..nice to see you're agreeing with me... i said that marks are most important and the others a what push you ahead of the rest of the people going for the job...

i agreed withum..frigid i think? in saying that UNI doesnt matter if you have good marks... and then added that good interview technique, links, good communication add to this...

i'm not an idiot...i don't think and never said that you can bullshit your way through an interview and that academics dont count...geez...

Ok, I see your point. I was skimming through responses in this topic and where frigid responded, I didn't read the quote responded to - without reading the quote the sentence makes it look like the subject is put on the firm =) + i was working through an essay atm

But yeah generally i disagree with people who think they can just sail through on their extra-curriculars, they need to get a clue. Seriously.
But I do agree with you.

 

[Meldrum]

hi, was wondering if any1 knows how SCU(southern cross uni) or UNE (uni of new england) ranks in the scale of things for law.

They're relatively invisible...just like getting a diploma, really.

 

[stamos]

Be an active member of LawSoc, go to social events, take advantage of the copious amounts of FREE ALCOHOL

lol since when did you attend law drinks

 

[Frigid]

lol since when did you attend law drinks

i went to the first couple... but i never drank, coz still on Ps... and besides, i'm allergic

 

[stamos]

hahah allergic? poor dude

 

[MoonlightSonata]

i went to the first couple... but i never drank, coz still on Ps... and besides, i'm allergic

aw

No personal swigs of scotch will ensue after a hard day's barristering then?

 

[Frigid]

blingbling time!

2005 mahlab survey of salaries:

Top Tier

Grad - 55K - 65K - avg 58K
1st yr - 60K - 82K - avg 67K
2nd yr - 70K - 90K - avg 80K
3rd yr - 75K - 105K - avg 94K
4th yr - 75.5K - 120K - avg 105K
5th yr - 80K - 140K - avg 118K
6th yr - 100K - 150K - avg 130K
7th-10th yr - 110K - 230K - avg 160K
10th+ yr - 140K - 255K - avg 190K

damn, where's my 750K target?

 

[velox]

Damn, i thought lawyers earnt more than that
Grad is pretty good. My sister earnt the same first year out of med with those dreaded 15 hour shifts.

 

[Frigid]

Grad is pretty good. My sister earnt the same first year out of med with those dreaded 15 hour shifts.

i think grads would get the same number of hours.