Fourth year law student - ask me anything! (1 Viewer)

surethingmate

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"I wanted to do law because it would give me a steady income and allow me to help other people."
> Help other people
> Works at Allens
Had to laugh at that one. At least you were honest enough to put the 'steady income' part first, but the 'help other people' part is really just a bit of a lie. I mean it may have been your original intent, you might have had some misty-eyed idea when you were applying to law school, that you'd be some crusader for social justice. But nobody who wants to 'help other people' applies to Allens. As you noted, it's a corporate law firm. It's an 800lb gorilla, fitted out for war, hired gun of the corporations, aka the traditional sworn enemies of 'other people'.
 

wannaspoon

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Law is NOT! a key to a steady income, no, you will not get a job at a top tier firm, and if you do, you'll fucking hate it...

Why Law does not provide a steady income:

Oversupply, low jobs number, unrealistic targets in employment, pessimism within the industry, etc... All things that insure that you are expendable and will never have a secure income...

Why you will not work at Allens:

See the above reasoning in this response...

In short, it is a profession that very, very few people actually succeed in...
 

Orwell

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Law is NOT! a key to a steady income, no, you will not get a job at a top tier firm, and if you do, you'll fucking hate it...

Why Law does not provide a steady income:

Oversupply, low jobs number, unrealistic targets in employment, pessimism within the industry, etc... All things that insure that you are expendable and will never have a secure income...

Why you will not work at Allens:

See the above reasoning in this response...

In short, it is a profession that very, very few people actually succeed in...
I feel so confused after reading this.

A job in law is all I've aimed for, I have no idea what to do now lol.
 

pikachu975

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I feel so confused after reading this.

A job in law is all I've aimed for, I have no idea what to do now lol.
Just ignore what he said and don't give up because every job WILL have competition no matter what.
 

RivalryofTroll

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I feel so confused after reading this.

A job in law is all I've aimed for, I have no idea what to do now lol.
It's fine as long as you're not doing law for the wrong reasons.
 

neo o

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ITT people with industry experience say law is shit. Later year students disagree.
 

lawfiend

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What was the difficulty of Law like over your 4 years :)?
From a technical POV, the difficulty becomes progressively harder for the first couple of years but it plateaus once you start on the your electives. Senior units are harder as there are more readings, longer problem questions etc.

However, I've also heard (and to an extent I agree) that law gets easier as you go because its the same assignment types again and again in the sense that most units will likely have an exam, an essay, class participation etc and you get better at approaching your subjects through practice. Once you get a hang of e.g. how to structure an essay or how to use IRAC properly its simply a fact of finding the right information and plugging it in.

I personally found first year hardest as everything is new but I still got a year to go.
 

lawfiend

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"I wanted to do law because it would give me a steady income and allow me to help other people."
> Help other people
> Works at Allens
Had to laugh at that one. At least you were honest enough to put the 'steady income' part first, but the 'help other people' part is really just a bit of a lie. I mean it may have been your original intent, you might have had some misty-eyed idea when you were applying to law school, that you'd be some crusader for social justice. But nobody who wants to 'help other people' applies to Allens. As you noted, it's a corporate law firm. It's an 800lb gorilla, fitted out for war, hired gun of the corporations, aka the traditional sworn enemies of 'other people'.
At Allens (and other major corporate law firms), you can go on secondments to places like RACS (which specifically help refugees) and there are a lot of pro bono opportunities. In contrast, you can't just decide to work 6 months at a CLC or spend time giving legal advice to young people at smaller suburban law firms as part of your work. Your blanket statement of no one wanting to help other people going to firms like Allens is incorrect. A lot of people in my grade who want to work at CLCs in the long term are at corporate law firms because they offer the best training (e.g. subsidised PLT, structured rotations, best lawyers etc.). Just because someone starts their career at Allens doesn't mean they'll be at Allens for the next 20 years. Like I said earlier, I'll also wager the amount of pro bono performed at large corporate law firms per lawyer is higher than what is done at smaller law firms. If you work in corporate then you aren't helping the bigger guys squash the little ones either.
 

lawfiend

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Law is NOT! a key to a steady income, no, you will not get a job at a top tier firm, and if you do, you'll fucking hate it...

Why Law does not provide a steady income:

Oversupply, low jobs number, unrealistic targets in employment, pessimism within the industry, etc... All things that insure that you are expendable and will never have a secure income...

Why you will not work at Allens:

See the above reasoning in this response...

In short, it is a profession that very, very few people actually succeed in...
oh yes. here we go again. please, enlighten us - the great prophet of doom and gloom!
 

lawfiend

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I think the law students know their stuff... :lol:
For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

Doesn't make sense mate.
 

strawberrye

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For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

Doesn't make sense mate.
Thank you for providing such a useful thread :)
Is there any tips you can give for the Allens application process? (Also out of curiosity how many firms did you applied for during the clerkship season and what firms are there and how successful were you with these applications, if you only applied for Allens-what made it stand out from the other big firms?)
I know one of my friends who is going to graduate this year-he attempted to differentiate the big 4 firms through the wording they used on their websites, but pretty much didn't get through the interviews... I was also wondering what other strategies we can use to differentiate the work of the largest firms then?

Sorry for the many questions
 

neo o

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For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

Doesn't make sense mate.
:punch:
 

RivalryofTroll

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At Allens (and other major corporate law firms), you can go on secondments to places like RACS (which specifically help refugees) and there are a lot of pro bono opportunities. In contrast, you can't just decide to work 6 months at a CLC or spend time giving legal advice to young people at smaller suburban law firms as part of your work. Your blanket statement of no one wanting to help other people going to firms like Allens is incorrect. A lot of people in my grade who want to work at CLCs in the long term are at corporate law firms because they offer the best training (e.g. subsidised PLT, structured rotations, best lawyers etc.). Just because someone starts their career at Allens doesn't mean they'll be at Allens for the next 20 years. Like I said earlier, I'll also wager the amount of pro bono performed at large corporate law firms per lawyer is higher than what is done at smaller law firms. If you work in corporate then you aren't helping the bigger guys squash the little ones either.
Based on what I've seen personally, I feel a good amount of people in legal roles within the not-for-profit sector, for example, have come from mid-tier/top-tier commercial law firms. That being said, I guess a decent amount of these people would have hated the commercial law firm life. At the same time, it would seem that working at these large commercial law firms tends to lead to numerous exit opportunities.

Anyways, I think it's fair to say that:
- Law isn't some safe financially stable path as a high school student/1st year student might think it is.
- However, law isn't some dead field where you have no hope unless you're the cream of the crop. Also, a law degree doesn't have to land you a job at a top tier commercial law firm or a legal role generally in the end.

A law degree provides you with many opportunities. A majority of people do it as a combined degree. Yes, it's an extra 2 years compared to a single degree (so more HECS debt) but there's plenty of people out there who transfer degrees after 1-2 years, do post-grad study, do the JD degree (which is even more expensive) so it's not a big deal.
 

davidgoes4wce

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They do indeed ask for you ATAR.
I wrote this on the Whirlpool forum and I'll post it here on the BoredofStudies. I have no jealousy or animosity towards people that achieve high ATAR's but the recruitment process factoring into account ATAR is a bit of a joke if you tell me.

I must admit I had a fairly average ATAR coming into university and I don't blame it on myself or not having the work ethic.

Like I said not everyone will value a ATAR of high 99+ at that particular price, some would be willing to pay that much. There is a price to everything in life isn't there? I reckon for every family there is a price that they will pay for to get that high ATAR. Why are parents paying up $20,000-$35,000 per year for educational fees?( I understand that it is not ALL academics) I do feel like the ATAR is almost a test of socio-economic status and income power. (As much as I hate to say that). Yes I came from a lower socioeconomic background and I reflect back on it now and I say I had no chance against the top tier schools (the heavily funded schools) and selective schools (who have parents that have planned out their education long before- my parents weren't educated here so they didn't give me direction. Well my mum was the one that encouraged being a teacher from her homeland. Obviously the standards in Australia was higher than in her home country. ) No , I don't make excuses for getting a crappy ATAR first up as well.( I actually worked my butt off in year 12- but didn't have study technique, tutors, resources , network of top tier students to push and drive me, teachers were not willing to go that extra mile etc) Look, I now work as a tutor and can see the advantages v disadvantages of the 'have's and have nots'. The problem is, Year 12 students who are finishing up their final year of study, have only studied the majority of their life, so of course its important for them. I think I had someone that had a chuckle at my ATAR, 10 years on saying 'how $hit it was" But I reflect back on it now and say how could I have controlled it? You grow up with what you get in life and you have to learn to deal with it at times. Sometimes you have to applaud students who get an ATAR of 85, when the schools median average is 65, they are punching above their weight. I guess what I'm trying to say is , there is more to a score than meets the eye. If your school is ranked middle to lower tier, you have less likelihood of getting that high ATAR, as hard as you might try. (obviously there will be some exceptional circumstances for a few). But of course you can always be successful later in life whether you have a high ATAR or low ATAR.

I mean I look at a course like Medicine now, the process by which admissions is administered , you can gain entry by not requiring that high an ATAR, by just completing a Bachelor of ___________. In fact alot of graduate medicine entry courses don't even look at ATAR. You could be a successful business person without requiring a degree of any sort. Although a degree does give you the mindset to take on things in life with more confidence.

But for me I value having and living a good life>>>>>studying like a brainiac. Unfortunately, my work requires me to work like a brainiac and it's not something that I will look to do in say 5 years time. (Speaking to a lot of teachers I do feel most of them want a change of profession after a few years into the job) Would love a more cruisier job where I'm not necessarily helping people all the time, I'd rather be helping myself. There is a huge social cost of studying real hard as well.
 
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davidgoes4wce

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Also no disrespect to Allens- I have never heard of them (but based on what I have read I'm not sure if it's a company that I would want to work for-they do seem a tad elitist) but do they have any links with UWA law by any chance? Not sure but I didn't have too many friends at UWA law at my time, there were kids predominately from the GT network (Golden triangle network- and if you have lived in Perth, these kids are known to be fairly 'cliquey') or do you happen to have connections nationwide, globally or it just a Sydney company?

You can see I am not a law student nor interested in the particular course but I always have an interest in other areas and discplines.
 
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wannaspoon

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oh yes. here we go again. please, enlighten us - the great prophet of doom and gloom!
When you graduate and find half of your mates (quite possibly you as well) unemployed and you're crying about how savage the profession is, come back to me... (That is, if you are actually studying law)...

For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

Doesn't make sense mate.
The crux of your argument is why do smart people study Law... Which is hardly an argument... Come on, that's like saying "I got the ATAR and thought Law would be a good choice"
 

RivalryofTroll

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When you graduate and find half of your mates (quite possibly you as well) unemployed and you're crying about how savage the profession is, come back to me... (That is, if you are actually studying law)...
I assume half of these mates are the ones who are like 'it's either commercial law firms or nothing' or 'why would I want to work in the public sector'?
 
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wannaspoon

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I assume half of these mates are the ones who are like 'it's either commercial law firms or nothing' or 'why would I want to work in the public sector'?
I somehow think that you don't understand how the job market actually works...

These people would settle for Admin jobs within a firm... However, there is a reluctance to hire those who have Law degrees for Admin and/or Paralegal roles... For starters, they are grossly overqualified for the role of Paralegal, secondly, employers want security out of their employees as much as employees seek job security... They don't want a person to cut and run as soon as the next job opportunity rolls past...
 

RivalryofTroll

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I somehow think that you don't understand how the job market actually works...

These people would settle for Admin jobs within a firm... However, there is a reluctance to hire those who have Law degrees for Admin and/or Paralegal roles... For starters, they are grossly overqualified for the role of Paralegal, secondly, employers want security out of their employees as much as employees seek job security... They don't want a person to cut and run as soon as the next job opportunity rolls past...
The point is that I'm not saying that it's all sunshine and rainbows for Law students (especially for those who want any role in a law firm). However, Law students probably have it much better than many other students and since most students take it as a combined degree, there's always their other degree.

Yes, Law is absolutely terrible compared to before when it comes to employability. Not saying every law student has a bright future. Legal roles are harder to come by. But Law isn't that terrible if you view it amongst all the degrees out there. Combined Law students have various options, whether it be legal or non-legal.

Like I said before:
Anyways, I think it's fair to say that:
- Law isn't some safe financially stable path as a high school student/1st year student might think it is.
- However, law isn't some dead field where you have no hope unless you're the cream of the crop. Also, a law degree doesn't have to land you a job at a top tier commercial law firm or a legal role generally in the end.

A law degree provides you with many opportunities. A majority of people do it as a combined degree. Yes, it's an extra 2 years compared to a single degree (so more HECS debt) but there's plenty of people out there who transfer degrees after 1-2 years, do post-grad study, do the JD degree (which is even more expensive) so it's not a big deal.
If Law is terrible, basically 80% of degrees are terrible.
 
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