Freedom (2 Viewers)

[Ennaybur]

Social democracy is the next best thing, and infinitely more stable.


Can you elaborate?

I'm sort of wondering whether the likes of nolan, waf, kat, malfoy, think that the ultimate good is political freedom (I'm using the word political to distinguish between the other philosophical free will/determinism debate).

Because in many cases one or another of them has appeared to place freedom - such as in the drug legalisation threads, and particularly in tax matters - above health and welfare.

Chadd often makes the point that we are minimally free when we are starving and uneducated, but I haven't heard their response to that.

 

[Ennaybur]

oh yeah btw the options are very retarded, I just wanted a poll

 

[Ennaybur]

Didn't vote because options are retarded. I believe that a large degree of both forms of freedom will lead to the optimum outcome, but "Freedom at all costs" would imply that the reason I pursue such a line is because freedom in and of itself is the end goal, rather than pragmatic solutions for society's problems.

so you don't believe that freedom is the ultimate goal?

 

[Snaykew]

I love freedom because I want people to fuck the fuck off out of my life and let me get on with what I'm up to, dig?

I don't mind paying a bit of cash here and there for universal healthcare, but that's it mang.

Don't want to finance standing armies or reserve banks or departments or primary industry or anything.

Just want to chill out in a nice altruistic way not messing with anyone else's jazz and not having their jazz mess with my jazz.

Is that totally unacceptable?

Yes, yes it is.

 

[Slidey]

Where is your sense of community? I am a very spiritual person. I feel we are becoming disconected and should sacrifice some of our freedoms so we can work towards a common morality and shared understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It's actually independent of religion, because that's the same line Chinese nationalists use to justify the conservative morality and oppressive social doctrine of China.

Man, I turned a thread to China again. Is there a Godwin's law for China?

 

[sam04u]

Some freedoms need to be limited in order for society to function. But otherwise, freedom is an essential part of society. For through freedom everything else can be achieved. But of the freedoms, the most important is the freedom from poverty, for in poverty the people are powerless. And now, an extract from an awesome book.

What I call poverty is when people are not able to secure for
themselves all the benefits of civilization; the necessaries,
comforts, pleasures and refinements of life, leisure, books, theatres,
pictures, music, holidays, travel, good and beautiful homes, good
clothes, good and pleasant food.'

`If a man is only able to provide himself and his family with the bare necessaries of existence, that man's family is living in poverty.
Since he cannot enjoy the advantages of civilization he might just as
well be a savage: better, in fact, for a savage knows nothing of what
he is deprived. What we call civilization - the accumulation of
knowledge which has come down to us from our forefathers - is the
fruit of thousands of years of human thought and toil. It is not the
result of the labour of the ancestors of any separate class of people
who exist today, and therefore it is by right the common heritage of
all. Every little child that is born into the world, no matter
whether he is clever or full, whether he is physically perfect or
lame, or blind; no matter how much he may excel or fall short of his
fellows in other respects, in one thing at least he is their equal -
he is one of the heirs of all the ages that have gone before.'

 

[Snaykew]

It's actually independent of religion, because that's the same line Chinese nationalists use to justify the conservative morality and oppressive social doctrine of China.

Man, I turned a thread to China again. Is there a Godwin's law for China?

Maybe you are too into the Olympics. The rest of us only care for women's beach volleyball and women's gymnastics.

 

[Enteebee]

People have every fucking right to be in poverty.

Join the Catholics if you're going to wax lyrical about social justice.

How much freedom does someone who's in poverty have?

 

[sam04u]

People have every fucking right to be in poverty.

Join the Catholics if you're going to wax lyrical about social justice.

Hey, I'm all for freedom of choice on the poverty question.
If they choose to be povo, then more power to them.

Edit:
No wait... less power to them.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Maybe you are too into the Olympics. The rest of us only care for women's beach volleyball and women's gymnastics.

It's funny because I'm watching the women's gymnastics right now.

 

[Ennaybur]

People have every fucking right to be in poverty.

Join the Catholics if you're going to wax lyrical about social justice.

Coming from the north shore rich boy.

You've never had to worry about food or money or education, of course no body else would have to at the age of 7 either. They're a waste of money and time. THey basically deserve to be there if they can't get off their asses and make something of themselves right?

 

[Snaykew]

It's funny because I'm watching the women's gymnastics right now.

Good man.

Rest of the Olympics are boring save for the lightshow of the opening ceremony. Fireworks were pretty impressive in Beijing. So many damn fireworks all around the stadium that it must've contributed to the pollution significantly. =P

 

[Enteebee]

Absolute wank. After seeing exactly how many self made men and women have risen from nothing to a situation of stature (most of the wealthy in the boomers, in fact, they're not all rich beard-stroking bankers) I've always thought that 'omg ur unfairly biased' argument is bullshit.

If anything I lack the driving impetus to do anything with my life because I'm set for it. I don't have a hunger or a need to be better than I currently am because I'm comfortable, so I know that someone with those desires who is less well off than I am will trounce me and do substantially better.

Nah the actual statistics go completely against you... if you're born rich you're more likely to die rich, born poor more likely to die poor. Furthermore I'd argue that the reasons people can actually get up is because they're not really "self made" they either got a lucky break from someone or the government was there to foster them at least at the minimum level.

 

[Snaykew]

Absolute wank. After seeing exactly how many self made men and women have risen from nothing to a situation of stature (most of the wealthy in the boomers, in fact, they're not all rich beard-stroking bankers) I've always thought that 'omg ur unfairly biased' argument is bullshit.

If anything I lack the driving impetus to do anything with my life because I'm set for it. I don't have a hunger or a need to be better than I currently am because I'm comfortable, so I know that someone with those desires who is less well off than I am will trounce me and do substantially better.

Holy crap, I'm not lazy, I'm you.

Nah the actual statistics go completely against you... if you're born rich you're more likely to die rich, born poor more likely to die poor. Furthermore I'd argue that the reasons people can actually get up is because they're not really "self made" they either got a lucky break from someone or the government was there to foster them at least at the minimum level.

Of course. But hard work can get you to a comfortable position. Take my family for instance. My dad worked in Portugal (immigrated from East Timor) til he got enough money for him and his family to move to Australia. Pretty much got here with a few possessions and little to no money. He worked at a factory until he got an injury, then my parents got a loan and bought a fish and chip shop near the beach and worked hard on it for a few years and now we live in Shell Cove (your home by the sea, lol) with the loans for the business and our double storey house paid.

 

[Enteebee]

Holy crap, I'm not lazy, I'm you.


Of course. But hard work can get you to a comfortable position. Take my family for instance. My dad worked in Portugal (immigrated from East Timor) til he got enough money for him and his family to move to Australia. Pretty much got here with a few possessions and little to no money. He worked at a factory until he got an injury, then my parents got a loan and bought a fish and chip shop near the beach and worked hard on it for a few years and now we live in Shell Cove (your home by the sea, lol) with the loans for the business and our double storey house paid.

Okay nice anecdote... how many times did he luck out where other people wouldn't have? How many time did 'socialist' government policies help him out where otherwise he would have been left high and dry?

 

[Snaykew]

Okay nice anecdote... how many times did he luck out where other people wouldn't have? How many time did 'socialist' government policies help him out where otherwise he would have been left high and dry?

Oh I was just commenting on how there is opportunity in Australia to work your way up compared to say, USA where the minimum wage sucks balls. Also I am for government intervention in the economy.

But I don't think he needed bailing out of any situations. :S He just worked, saved up and stuff. Don't think the government just gave us a big wad of cash. My parents borrowed money from the bank and paid it all back.

 

[Enteebee]

I've built that up from nothing, so how is it not fair for me to reap the rewards of it?

Well other than funding back to the system which does/did help you (which you obviously acknowledge) I'd merely have to say that I think our society should be more empathetic than social darwinists i.e. Just because you're naturally more gifted at creating a business etc does not mean you should reap rewards while there are far more pressing needs for other members of society. I think it'd be wrong for us not to force you to give up say... the ability to buy a particular sports car (which you may have genuinely earned) to provide those whom maybe haven't done so well with a minimum standard of care.

 

[Slidey]

.

How much freedom does somebody who's addicted have?

Haha, well before I get into another argument I should head off. Thought it was an interesting juxtaposition, though.

 

[Ennaybur]

Holy crap, I'm not lazy, I'm you.


Of course. But hard work can get you to a comfortable position. Take my family for instance. My dad worked in Portugal (immigrated from East Timor) til he got enough money for him and his family to move to Australia. Pretty much got here with a few possessions and little to no money. He worked at a factory until he got an injury, then my parents got a loan and bought a fish and chip shop near the beach and worked hard on it for a few years and now we live in Shell Cove (your home by the sea, lol) with the loans for the business and our double storey house paid.

You guys always use these select 'make it themselves' stories, but ignore all the times it doesn't. Like chadd said, the stats are against you, and the reasons are because they got some help at some point - something that would not be an option if you had your way and there were no social services at all.

I can't understand how naive you are. But then again coming from nth shore, going to nth shore schools you probably don't get that much first hand experience? (Heaven forgive me but I'm going to use a personal example again) my best friend would never have made it through hsc if it wasnt for the welfare system. Even then he had to work a 25+hr week just to support himself, his (skizophrenic single mum), and his two siblings. He got the second highest uai whilst working that many hours and doing the grocery shopping and cooking and cleaning for his entire household.

he's currently at uni doing nursing (a pretty socially useful profession) and again, wouldnt be able to do it if he wasn't recieving support from the government. Yes, he works fucking hard and is the person I admire most in my life, but here's the thing: he wouldnt have been able to do it without welfare, he would have had to drop out in year 10 to support himself and his family.

And he doesn't consider himself hard done by either. There are far more people that were around in school who came from abusive families which had drug problems and weren't fed well. But how do you expect them to get out of that when they can't afford to feed themeselves, clothe themselves, get textbooks?

@ dom: yeah I'm well aware of that. Hence me advocating social welfare policy and not abandoning those who weren't born into as fortunate situation as myself

 

[Snaykew]

How much freedom does somebody who's addicted have?

The freedom to buy whatever they're addicted to legally or otherwise.

You guys always use these select 'make it themselves' stories, but ignore all the times it doesn't. Like chadd said, the stats are against you, and the reasons are because they got some help at some point - something that would not be an option if you had your way and there were no social services at all.

I can't understand how naive you are. But then again coming from nth shore, going to nth shore schools you probably don't get that much first hand experience? (Heaven forgive me but I'm going to use a personal example again) my best friend would never have made it through hsc if it wasnt for the welfare system. Even then he had to work a 25+hr week just to support himself, his (skizophrenic single mum), and his two siblings. He got the second highest uai whilst working that many hours and doing the grocery shopping and cooking and cleaning for his entire household.

he's currently at uni doing nursing (a pretty socially useful profession) and again, wouldnt be able to do it if he wasn't recieving support from the government. Yes, he works fucking hard and is the person I admire most in my life, but here's the thing: he wouldnt have been able to do it without welfare, he would have had to drop out in year 10 to support himself and his family.

And he doesn't consider himself hard done by either. There are far more people that were around in school who came from abusive families which had drug problems and weren't fed well. But how do you expect them to get out of that when they can't afford to feed themeselves, clothe themselves, get textbooks?

come on

I'm not from North Shore as I don't even live near Sydney. I went to a public high school with a bad reputation. Lol. I have never lived in a upper class area. So go fuck yourself.

Also, I was not advocating the abolishment of socialism in Australia. I was just saying how you CAN work your way up in Australia currently.