German Help. (1 Viewer)

[alex19]

Hi,
I actually dont do German for my HSC, But i am doing a drama monologue which has german phrases and words, which i need to know how to say, i live in the Noth Sydney and would love some assistance, either in person or over the phone. my email is alextaye89@hotmail.com
thanking in advance,
Alex

 

[Premiumness]

wenn du reizvoll bist, helfe ich dir

 

[alex19]

ich bin, helfe bitte sehr herrlich!

 

[mos3s]

aye guys!!!
im in year 10 and im thinkin of doing german next year
my friends german and he reckons its fair hard to learn
i was just wondering what people out there doing thinks of it
cya!!

 

[alcalder]

Hi mos3s,

All Germans think that their language is really hard because of the three genders with "the" and other such Grammar stuff. However, I was a very average German student and I really enjoyed it and did not find it hard. The hard bit for me was learning vocab - still is. But German is a very logical language with some set rules that are easy to learn (and its a heck of fun to speak!).

So, I would go for it. But then again, I'm biassed

 

[xeuyrawp]

Hey thanks for that as well. I'm doing a German for reading purposes course this year, and starting German properly next year.

Quick question: In the passive section, you said that it changes the empasis from the subject to the object. Are you sure that's right?

 

[alcalder]

Passive voice is this:

The boy was bitten by the dog.

It can also be said:

The boy was bitten.

The boy is the subject of the sentence.

The active sentence is:

The dog bit the boy.

"The dog" is the doer and now the subject of the sentence and "the boy" is the object.

So, yes, turning something into passive voice turns the object into the subject.

Passiv - Der Junge wurde (vom Hund) gebissen.

Aktiv - Der Hund hat den Jungen gebissen.

Active voice is usual. Passive voice is used a lot during television and radio news reports. Writing stories in the passive voice is bad practice (that's the author in me speaking)

 

[ellen.louise]

Hey thanks for that as well. I'm doing a German for reading purposes course this year, and starting German properly next year.

Quick question: In the passive section, you said that it changes the empasis from the subject to the object. Are you sure that's right?

that is the defenition of passive voice. So yes, that's right.

 

[xeuyrawp]

that is the defenition of passive voice. So yes, that's right.

Not sure where you got that definition.

Finite, define, definitely, etc...

So, yes, turning something into passive voice turns the object into the subject.

....?

In English, the passive voice turns the direct object into the first noun of a clause. Ie, S-V-DO-IO > DO-V-S-IO.

In German, it is totally different. Because of the case system, German is not as word-order bound as we are in English.

Saying that the passive voice shifts emphasis is silly, and probably only comes from the fact that some passive clauses don't have a subject. Thus, people assume that the emphasis lies on the only nominal part of the sentence, the direct object, when in fact the German grammatical voice is emphasis-neutral.

Writing stories in the passive voice is bad practice

I don't think anyone would write a whole story in the passive. Saying 'you can't have x in a story' is bad practice, imo.

 

[ssejamafone]

Not sure where you got that definition.

Finite, define, definitely, etc...

evaryone maykes spilling mistaeks, soe get oveh it.

....?

In English, the passive voice turns the direct object into the first noun of a clause. Ie, S-V-DO-IO > DO-V-S-IO.

In German, it is totally different. Because of the case system, German is not as word-order bound as we are in English.

Saying that the passive voice shifts emphasis is silly, and probably only comes from the fact that some passive clauses don't have a subject. Thus, people assume that the emphasis lies on the only nominal part of the sentence, the direct object, when in fact the German grammatical voice is emphasis-neutral.

i don't see why it doesn't make sense to you.

Active: I ate the hamburger
Ich aß den Hamburger

Passive: The hamurger was eaten by me
Der Hamburger wurde von mir gegessen

Just because the german word order is different from english word order, doesn't mean that it's (in this case) any different from english. It's quite plain to me that in the active sentence, the 'I/Ich' is the subject and the emphasis is on it, whereas in the passive sentence 'the hamburger' has had the emphasis shifted onto it, and has thus changed into the subject.

Definition from my german textbook:

"In German, as in English, passive constructions shift the emphasis from the subject of the active sentence to the direct object. What had been the direct object of the active sentence becomes the subject of the passive sentence. In an active sentence the subject performs and action, whereas in a passive sentence the subject is acted upon by an agent that was the subject of the active sentence. This agent might or might not be expressed in the passive sentence. If the agent is expressed in a passive construction in German, it it preceded by either 'von' or 'durch'. If an agent is a person, it is preceded by 'von' followed by the dative case. If the agent is an impersonal means by which something is done, it is preceded by 'durch' followed by the accusative case. In English the word 'by' is used to introduce the agent whether it is a person or an impersonal means.

Active Die Eltern fragen den Jungen - The parents ask the boy
Passive Der Junge wird von den Elten gefragt - The boy is asked by his parents

However, many passive sentences in German do not express an agent. They simply consist of a subject and the passive verb pattern.

Die Tuer wird geschlossen - The door is being closed

In German, the indirect object of the active sentence cannot become the subject of the passive sentence. It must remain the indirect object. The German passive construction does not need a subject. 'Es' may be placed in first position of the sentence. It functions merely as a filler and not as a subject. otherwise the indirect object or other elements may be in first position when no subject is present.

Active Der Arzt hilft dem Verwundeten - The doctor is helping the wounded (man)
Passive Dem Verwundeten wird vom Arzt geholfen - The wounded man is being helped by the doctor.
Es wird dem Verwundeten vom Arzt geholfen - The wounded man is helped by the doctor.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Chill out about the spelling error. Most people want to improve...

With your definition, cite your source so we can look it up?

I have Hammer's German Grammar and Usage, pretty much a definitive grammar.

In the beginning of Chapter 15, it states that the passive

places empasis on what is going on, without necessarily saying who or what is doing it

Therefore I was half wrong. I said it was emphatic-neutral, whereas I was thinking nominally. It does not emphasise any noun, which I was right about, and what I think you're wrong about.

But I didn't think about the verb. It is, like in English, usually verbally emphatic. So I was wrong about that. Anyway...

Since it is verbally emphatic, it puts the emphasis on the verb, not the subject. In fact, using some formal linguistics, it's really putting emphasis on the aspect of the clause, 95% of the time. This is really explicit when Germans use sein, which is called a stasis particle or static auxillary verb.

We're too used to thinking in terms of word order, where nominal position is everything. Since English emphatic constructions are quite subtle (unlike Semitic and East Asian languages), I don't think we're used to thinking about emphasis. I don't even think we're used to using it - most people who want emphasis will bold or italicise something in text, and s l o w l y say something, or say something .......... with a pause when speaking.

Eg:

A: Who gave it?
B: It was given by Jane.

(Emphasis on Jane) Would technically be an incorrect use of the passive. Really it should be:

A: Who gave it?
B: Jane gave it.

or even:

A: Who gave it?
B: It was Jane who gave it.

 

[lovely_gangster]

just out of interest, why do people say den jungen when taking the accusative case of the word boy? i'm probably wrong but i've never heard it spoken like that before.

 

[ssejamafone]

Chill out about the spelling error. Most people want to improve...

With your definition, cite your source so we can look it up?

yerrr... sorry about blowing off my top. But, i just have an aversion to people who are overly pedantic. It just peeves me sometimes... but, yeah, sorry bout that.

And, i'm using Schaum's Outlines German Grammar - Lois Feuerle

 

[alcalder]

The fact that the noun (Nomen) is written in Akkusativ case when we use active speech and Subjektiv case when we use possive shows that the noun becomes the subject in Passive and is the object in active.

People say "den Jungen" because that is the way it is defined. There are wacky rules like that with endings on "der" nouns sometimes when changing them into Akkusativ and Dativ cases. The fact that people don't use it when speaking is a whole other matter. That is the changing nature of the spoken language.

And using passive voice in prose writing - generally frowned upon in professional novel writing as a sloppy use of the language.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Still disagree with the passive not being used as an emphatic construction, though?

And using passive voice in prose writing - generally frowned upon [[[passive]]] in professional novel writing as a sloppy use of the language.

Hehe. I hope that was intentional. Otherwise it's pretty ironic.

Still, I'd have to disagree with you. I don't think a great author could be named without them having used the passive. I don't pretend to have studied many languages, but all the ones which I have studied tend to put passive constructions in even the highest registers of text - where sloppy language is always discouraged.

Yes, overusage of it would be sloppy, but so would overusage of, say independent main clauses, imagine writing a novel totally in them... Yet you can't say that they are sloppy at all; rather, they form the backbone of any language.

*shrug*

I still love your reference guide.

 

[lovely_gangster]

The fact that the noun (Nomen) is written in Akkusativ case when we use active speech and Subjektiv case when we use possive shows that the noun becomes the subject in Passive and is the object in active.

People say "den Jungen" because that is the way it is defined. There are wacky rules like that with endings on "der" nouns sometimes when changing them into Akkusativ and Dativ cases. The fact that people don't use it when speaking is a whole other matter. That is the changing nature of the spoken language.

And using passive voice in prose writing - generally frowned upon in professional novel writing as a sloppy use of the language.

ah that explains it. about 90% of the german i'm exposed to is spoken german.

that's probably also why my grammar (esp when writing) is really terrible.

 

[alcalder]

Still disagree with the passive not being used as an emphatic construction, though?


Hehe. I hope that was intentional. Otherwise it's pretty ironic.

Oh, I am SO busted!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

But indeed, many great authors do use the passive now and then but overuse is very bad. So is the overuse of adverbs. "On Writing" by Stephen King is a great reference for that sort of thing. But I digress.

Indeed, written German is far more formal than spoken German. That's why, when I speak it, I sound like I'm speaking straight out of a damn grammar book, :rofl: because I am so pendantic about the grammar.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Oh, I am SO busted!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'd hope that you'd check your novels for grammar better than I check my posts... Most of the time, I only realise that my posts make no sense when someone quotes them... :S

Indeed, written German is far more formal than spoken German. That's why, when I speak it, I sound like I'm speaking straight out of a damn grammar book, :rofl: because I am so pendantic about the grammar.

I got told that I speak German like a 90 year old professor.

 

[lovely_gangster]

I got told that I speak German like a 90 year old professor.

haha i guess there's a balance. my german i'd say is too informal probably because i only ever use written german in msn or emails.

it's gotten to the stage where even writing ich habe feels wrong. i should probably get out of habits like that.

 

[Peartie]

i know this is late and all but the passive is switching emphasis from who is doing something to what is being done

so as was said - from the boy eats the hamburger
to
the hamburger is eaten....

thats the way i was taught it