greek world 500-440 BC (1 Viewer)

[bc2005]

i need help on an essay about how athens role in the persian wars account for its rise to prominence in Ancient Greece. anyone that could help me, itd b greatly appreciated. thankyou!

 

[suger_plum]

we stopped doing persain war stuff months ago. is this ur last topic??

athens had built up such a military force during the persaian wars, no other state dared defy them!
except sparta of course!
but thats a diffrent story

 

[invoiced]

growing dominance over the other states of greece.
then they got the treasury, ect. delian league, into pelopenesian league, ect

 

[xeuyrawp]

growing dominance over the other states of greece.
then they got the treasury, ect. delian league, into pelopenesian league, ect

Firstly, please get a new avatar. Secondly, use one account. Thirdly, it's "etc" not "ect"- interesting how both you and sugar say that?

bc2005- add me to msn, or email me, and I'll email a few of my notes on the subject

 

[classics_chic]

In the ten years between Marathon and Xerxes' hubristic adventures (main Persian War), the silver mines were found in Athens. The democrats wanted to give the money to the citizens, but Themistokles convinced them to build ships. It was these ships that gave Athens some of their earliest military glory (although they kicked Sparta seven years earlier than this HSC period begins in the Athenian Revolution), and caused their downfall in the Hellenistic period (not that you need to know that). Also, because of the power of Athens, the way the Spartans alienated the Ionians (not helping for the revolt, and the way in which the king- can't remember his name- decided to act like a Persian king, running away when there was an earthquake in Sparta), and the fear that the Persians caused the Greeks (the first real invasion of Greek soil since Mycenaean times), the Delian League was formed: the money and ships that Athens gained from that allowed them to have their short stint at imperialism, and allowed them to build upon their beginnings as a cultural centre.

Invoiced is wrong. They didn't get into the Pel. League- they invaded some of it, as well as the Boetian League, but they didn't become a part of it, or destroy it. They took parts in order to threaten Sparta- which of course led to the Pel. War and Athen's ultimate downfall.

Hope that's been of some help. For more, Herodotos and Thukydides are helpful.

(NB: my spelling isn't wrong, I just don't spell it the Latin way)

 

[xeuyrawp]

In the ten years between Marathon and Xerxes' hubristic adventures

Errr? You mean "hybris"? The adjective of hybris is only "hybristic" if you're using it in a modern context. In an ancient essay, I'd stay clear of the word that had different meaning to the people you're studying.

 

[classics_chic]

Errr? You mean "hybris"? The adjective of hybris is only "hybristic" if you're using it in a modern context. In an ancient essay, I'd stay clear of the word that had different meaning to the people you're studying.

I meant hubris. It's spelt with a u in the Greek (which I have done), like Herodotos isn't. I'd put the correct spelling up, but the font isn't compatible with the site. But I'll tell you it anyway: it's upsilon (u) with a rough breathing (reads "h" at the start of the word), beta (b), rho (r), iota (i), sigma (s). Also, I was having an in-joke about the way in which Xerxes is portrayed in Herodotos- the ultimate display of hubris followed by nemesis. You can talk about it in ancient history essays, particularly when looking at the historiography of the sources: this impacts upon the way in which Xerxes is presented and therefore the "truth" of the sources. Since I'm referring to Herodotos, I'm making reference to his use and therefore his meaning of the word. Since it's not worthwhile teaching people Greek grammar just for a little terminology in high-school ancient history, using the modern adjective is fine. You can even spell it in the *shudder* Latin way if you so choose.

I agree that you should stay clear of words that have a different connotation to the people that you're studying, unless you're using it in the appropriate context. As hubris to me, in this context, means the word that I could find in my ancient Greek lexicon, I think I have the right to use the word in this way. Just make sure you do, too.

According to my intermediate lexicon, hubris means wantonness, wanton violence or insolence (used in Herodotos and others); an outrage on the person, violation (Pindar)

Since "hubris" is the word used by him and atributed to him in the lexicon, I think I'm justified in using the word in the ancient context, talking about the ancients.

 

[xeuyrawp]

I meant hubris. It's spelt with a u in the Greek (which I have done), like Herodotos isn't. I'd put the correct spelling up, but the font isn't compatible with the site. But I'll tell you it anyway: it's upsilon (u) with a rough breathing (reads "h" at the start of the word), beta (b), rho (r), iota (i), sigma (s). Also, I was having an in-joke about the way in which Xerxes is portrayed in Herodotos- the ultimate display of hubris followed by nemesis. You can talk about it in ancient history essays, particularly when looking at the historiography of the sources: this impacts upon the way in which Xerxes is presented and therefore the "truth" of the sources. Since I'm referring to Herodotos, I'm making reference to his use and therefore his meaning of the word. Since it's not worthwhile teaching people Greek grammar just for a little terminology in high-school ancient history, using the modern adjective is fine. You can even spell it in the *shudder* Latin way if you so choose.

I agree that you should stay clear of words that have a different connotation to the people that you're studying, unless you're using it in the appropriate context. As hubris to me, in this context, means the word that I could find in my ancient Greek lexicon, I think I have the right to use the word in this way. Just make sure you do, too.

According to my intermediate lexicon, hubris means wantonness, wanton violence or insolence (used in Herodotos and others); an outrage on the person, violation (Pindar)

Since "hubris" is the word used by him and atributed to him in the lexicon, I think I'm justified in using the word in the ancient context, talking about the ancients.

Yet again, you've shown yourself to be a patronising, over-flaunting bitch.

I know how to spell hybris, I've studied classical greek. Perhaps what you haven't noticed is that historians, and people in general, spell things differently, probably because we're speaking English. I've noticed that all those who start greek love to show the "I've done greek" by spelling Thucydides (Θουκυδίδης- wow, what do you know, other people can read and write classical greek!!!) with the u instead of the y. Same with hybris (can't remember the key-stroke to get the "ch" on the u). Unfortunately, we live in a world of unusual convention, speaking a language of mish-mash, and that's how we fucking spell "hybris".

No need to remind us all that you do "The Classics" and know how it's spelt in greek, because some of us still speak english

 

[classics_chic]

Swearing: real mature. And again referring back to sexist measures in order to bolster your own self esteem. Doing wonders for men there, you are. Can we please cut this hostility garbage and stick to legitimate intellectual debate?

In order to understand that some concepts have evolved over time, scholars and lay-people (like me) find it useful to use the Greek/ Latin term in order to specify that we mean the Greek term, for that society. I mean, does anyone say "spirit of the times"? No, we say "Zeitgeist". What about "period in which novels re-emerged in popularity"? "Romantic Period"- here we use the German, slightly more naturalised, but making a similar point. Scholars are increasingly using transcribed Greek spelling rather than the Latin: Oswyn Murray for one. Why use a term that has been naturalised into English like "hybris" and risk confusion? "Hubris" looks a bit different, people ask questions, and they find out that history wasn't just like now. That's my aim in doing it: asking questions and accuracy- I don't know why you seem to take bait that's not even put out for you. I don't do it to flaunt anything. I do it to make people think. You read far too much into what I'm saying.

 

[goldendawn]

There have always been issues with the transliteration of Greek into the Latin alphabet. Even now - for both Modern and Classical Greek - there is no real standard. I've known the place name Pireaus (among other words) to be transliterated multiple ways, ie as Peraeous, Piraos, Pereas, etc.

 

[classics_chic]

There have always been issues with the transliteration of Greek into the Latin alphabet. Even now - for both Modern and Classical Greek - there is no real standard. I've known the place name Pireaus (among other words) to be transliterated multiple ways, ie as Peraeous, Piraos, Pereas, etc.

Exactly. I don't say it's wrong to write it one way, I say it's wrong to take the choice away. Seriously, the stakes are pretty low here. What's the fight about? I may hate to be told I'm wrong (especially when I'm not), but it's still absolutely ridiculous to mount a fight like this, especially on such polemic, hateful rhetoric.

 

[goldendawn]

Hey classics_chic, may I ask what method of pronunciation for Ancient Greek were you taught?

I would guess the Erasmian pronunciation (which is in my opinion the grossest pronunciation of ancient Greek, followed in close second by the reconstructed pitch accent, ).

 

[Protector]

Yet again, you've shown yourself to be a patronising, over-flaunting bitch.

Your audacity shows your stupidity, and not much else.

I know how to spell hybris, I've studied classical greek. Perhaps what you haven't noticed is that historians, and people in general, spell things differently, probably because we're speaking English. I've noticed that all those who start greek love to show the "I've done greek" by spelling Thucydides (Θουκυδίδης- wow, what do you know, other people can read and write classical greek!!!) with the u instead of the y. Same with hybris (can't remember the key-stroke to get the "ch" on the u). Unfortunately, we live in a world of unusual convention, speaking a language of mish-mash, and that's how we fucking spell "hybris".

If I recall correctly, Pamela Bradly isn't a historian... so your grasp on reality might be slipping. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt over Oswyn Murray, Sir Moses Finley, Sir Geoffrey Elton, Robert Fogel, Paul Cartledge and many others...

Of course, you could take the "new" spelling of Hybris (derived from Latin, not Greek... but remind me, who's word was it?), but last time I checked I was in Australia, this website is on the HSC, and not on some third rate American spelling test. Your pedantic behaviour makes me wonder why you're still here. You finished your HSC in 2004. Its a miracle you got anywhere if you believe what you do...

No need to remind us all that you do "The Classics" and know how it's spelt in greek, because some of us still speak english

When in Rome...

 

[xeuyrawp]

Your audacity shows your stupidity, and not much else.

Oh, jesus. Who are you? "Your audacity shows your stupidity"? What kind of eastern philosophical bullshit is that?

If I recall correctly, Pamela Bradly isn't a historian... so your grasp on reality might be slipping.

When is a person a historian? Do they need a PhD? Do they need 85%+ in their uni degree?

What about Aboriginal historians or Gaelic historians that have bardic tradition? Bradley's methods are different to the traditional sense of "historian" because of the history she's writing- TEXTBOOK HISTORY. She collates and summarises info. Gardiner does that when he cites the philological evidence from Abu Simbel, Kemp does it with his translation of the Amarna letters, Bradley does it with her collection of secondary sources. It's all the same.

Don't tell me my grasp of reality's slipping, you don't know me, and I've never seen you here before.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt over Oswyn Murray, Sir Moses Finley, Sir Geoffrey Elton, Robert Fogel, Paul Cartledge and many others..

Wow, you can name a bunch of people! Top of the class!

. Of course, you could take the "new" spelling of Hybris (derived from Latin, not Greek... but remind me, who's word was it?),

Well as we know, every language comes from another. Even the new Korean writing system, which was standardised pretty recently by the government had influences. But let's see- there is the word "hybris" in Illiad, (700+BC)- when was the Latin sources?

In any case, the point is that nobody owns a word, and the only thing you can do is try to stick to convention which is "hybris". The only reason why language is so complex is because people feel the need to evolve.

but last time I checked I was in Australia, this website is on the HSC, and not on some third rate American spelling test. Your pedantic behaviour makes me wonder why you're still here. You finished your HSC in 2004.

Ah, so you want to have it both ways- "I can spell it like this", as well as "this isn't a spelling test, you have no life. Why are you still here?"

Well, initially I was here to get help for the HSC and chill out. Then I was here to get students. Now that I have as many students as I can, I'm just here to help. Look around the forums, and you'll see the no-bullshit style that I am. I admit that I have zero social skills, and that I'm constantly offending people and bickering, but I really don't care because on a large part, I answer peoples' questions and we're all the wiser.

Its a miracle you got anywhere if you believe what you do...

Tell me, what do I believe? Are you going to psychoanalyse me? Is it the Oedipus syndrome, or is the the classic loner scenario?

It's a miracle that I got the marks I wanted, got a scholarship to my uni, and have a generally happy life with what I believe. Brother.

I believe you should shut the hell up and not argue things you know nothing about (me); if you wanted to talk about "hybris", spelling, etymology etc, how about you talk about that and not pretend you have any idea what I'm about.

 

[goldendawn]

The most prolific spelling is "hubris". This spelling is used not only in Ancient History, but also in Performance Studies to denote Greek dramatic conventions ("hubris" is considered part of a characters "hamartia", or essential flaw). "Hybris" is rarely used, but it is not unheard of; and at its' worst it creates a little confusion. At its' best, it can be used to draw necessary semantic distinctions.

 

[Protector]

Oh, jesus. Who are you? "Your audacity shows your stupidity"? What kind of eastern philosophical bullshit is that?

When is a person a historian? Do they need a PhD? Do they need 85%+ in their uni degree?

What about Aboriginal historians or Gaelic historians that have bardic tradition? Bradley's methods are different to the traditional sense of "historian" because of the history she's writing- TEXTBOOK HISTORY. She collates and summarises info. Gardiner does that when he cites the philological evidence from Abu Simbel, Kemp does it with his translation of the Amarna letters, Bradley does it with her collection of secondary sources. It's all the same.

Don't tell me my grasp of reality's slipping, you don't know me, and I've never seen you here before.

Wow, you can name a bunch of people! Top of the class!

Well as we know, every language comes from another. Even the new Korean writing system, which was standardised pretty recently by the government had influences. But let's see- there is the word "hybris" in Illiad, (700+BC)- when was the Latin sources?

In any case, the point is that nobody owns a word, and the only thing you can do is try to stick to convention which is "hybris". The only reason why language is so complex is because people feel the need to evolve.

Ah, so you want to have it both ways- "I can spell it like this", as well as "this isn't a spelling test, you have no life. Why are you still here?"

Well, initially I was here to get help for the HSC and chill out. Then I was here to get students. Now that I have as many students as I can, I'm just here to help. Look around the forums, and you'll see the no-bullshit style that I am. I admit that I have zero social skills, and that I'm constantly offending people and bickering, but I really don't care because on a large part, I answer peoples' questions and we're all the wiser.

Tell me, what do I believe? Are you going to psychoanalyse me? Is it the Oedipus syndrome, or is the the classic loner scenario?

It's a miracle that I got the marks I wanted, got a scholarship to my uni, and have a generally happy life with what I believe. Brother.

I believe you should shut the hell up and not argue things you know nothing about (me); if you wanted to talk about "hybris", spelling, etymology etc, how about you talk about that and not pretend you have any idea what I'm about.

I see absolutely no point in lowering myself to name calling... if you want to be immature, go to the non-school area.

As for the rest of your post, knock your ego down a few notches...

As for the list, they're historians that use the spelling, if you want to rant, back it up... you might even convince me. Although your immature approach says otherwise.

Edit: Sorry, I missed the last bit where your ePenis blocked your vision and/or understanding. Exhibit some wisdom.

====================

Back on topic: As a point of fact, "hybris" is from the Latin. Hubris is from the Greek. Its a Greek phrase, thus, there you have it.

 

[classics_chic]

NB: A person is a historian when they write in a constructive way within the historical tradition. Bradley doesn't fit into that criteria (and why are you writing this in the Greece 500-440 post, anyway?). This can include the bardic tradition- although it's not "wie es eigentlich gewesen" history, the notion of history is expanding. But it still needs to be somewhat selective or else we'll have every man and his dog writing: which is what happened with Bradley.

And by the way, Protector's been around longer than you have. You: Dec 2003, him Nov 2003.

If nobody owns a word, then why do you insist on one particular spelling? Conventions are changing, and as a result more people are going back to the Greek way of spelling it. Many notable historians are changing the way they spell words that derive from the Greek. I choose to follow this because it's easier to distinguish between modern and ancient, and it's more true to the Greeks themselves. (as much as you can be)

And I didn't know that Archaic Greek had a "y" in it. How, if that's not the case, did Homer write "hybris"?

I didn't learn any pronunciation with my Greek. I've guessed, and read a couple of theories as to how it's done. How does my pronunciation (or lack thereof) impinge upon the way in which hubris is written in Roman script?

 

[goldendawn]

I think that Greek is one of those languages that you need to hear spoken, because of its' intrinsic rythm and music. For Homeric, Archaic, Classical and early Helllenistic Greek, I prefer to use an altered version of the Modern Greek pronunciation, the main alterations being the pronunciations of dipthongs, and the use of plosive values for certain consonants that are believed to have become fricative in Byzantine times, (eg - β became fricative "v", sound, D became fricative "dh" sounds, etc), but whilst also maintaining palatalisation. I do not like the constructed Erasmian pronunciation at all, simply because we don't know exactly how Greeks of the ancient world spoke, and because the Greek language is a living language. I believe alot can be learnt from its' contemporary speakers about the Greek manner.

 

[grk_styl]

Please STOP abusing and flaming, or I'm going to start editing posts which I don't particularly want to.

Back on topic:
The defeat and cessation of the Persian threat was not the result of any one state. It became clear to the Greeks that cooperation and the pooling of resources from all states was needed for a Greek victory. However, it seems that some states, such as Athens and Sparta, contributed more resources, skills and cooperation to the Greek victory over Persia. This can be most clearly seen in Themistocles’ and Cimon’s contributions, the Athenian naval fleet, and the battles of Marathon, Salamis, Plataea and Mycale.

Basically, Athens was vital in coordinating and maintaining Greek forces and strategy for a successful defeat and the cessation of Persian threat.

You can include the following in your argument:
--> The choice of Marathon proved suitable for the Athenians as its strategic position allowed the Greeks to wait in safety for the right moment to attack.
--> The charge of the Athenian hoplites created surprise and confusion among the Persians
--> The role of Themistocles
--> Themistocles' naval policy
--> The battle of Salamis
--> Formation of the Delian League
--> The role of Cimon

Good luck

 

[teigamurray]

holy hell!! I don't understand half of what you people are going on about .. I only got on this thread to see if it could help me with an ancient assessment on the persian wars .. If being being intellectual means being socially retarded .. I think i'll just stay old average me coz at least i treat other people's opinions with respect. WHERE IS THE RESPECT PEOPLE??!!!!