Hatshepsut discussion (2 Viewers)

[Josh_W]

Re: Hatshepsut-impact and influence on her time

Well, basically, we analyse the impacts and inflences on her time, because we don't live in her time, so everything we say is based upon interpretation. Basically you want to be picking the interpretations that you think to be correct.
It might be an idea to say along the lines of ...."whilst...so and so...thinks this, it is know largely believed that Hatshepsut was in fact....this"
Important things
Foreign Policy
Trade
Re-instatement of nationalism post-hyksos
building program
MILITARY ACTIVITY (this is in caps because it's a good long fun argument to have)

 

[Josh_W]

Re: The burning question.

My history teacher is fantastic; she's decided (for herself) that Thut 3 did it because Hatshepsut-Merytre was making him feel emasculated about "the other woman".

One of the theories that i'm really warming to is that it was more a form of housekeeping than anything else; Thutmose the Third was aware that Hatshepsut was great, but didn't want her to look <i>too</i> great. The fact that this occured some twenty years later could mean a variety of things; the passing of her powerful officials in the court, the fading of her memory. Thut 3 was not trying to erase the past; he was just cleaning it up so that he would seem more acceptable in the present, balancing ma'at, etc.

That's my two cents

 

[samuel slack]

Re: The burning question.

That theory is supported by Tyldesley and Redford. Its what I go for if I get a question like this.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: The burning question.

My history teacher is fantastic; she's decided (for herself) that Thut 3 did it because Hatshepsut-Merytre was making him feel emasculated about "the other woman".

Try not to make your essay sound too Days of Our Livesish, though.

 

[Josh_W]

Re: The burning question.

Too Days of our lives!? NEVAAAA.

You should hear her theory on the "Who Killed Kamose" question.

*cue dramatic music and close-up on Ahmose*

 

[Adam.Meads]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

Chances are that she wasn't an "evil stepmother" as she didn't really do much to hinder Thutmose. He still had power during their co-regency, even leading an military expedition or something and being part of other political affairs. If she really was evil she could of just had Thutmose elimated as a baby.

Older historians tend to believe the "feud of the Thumosis" theory, that is Thutmose III and later pharaohs changed her monuments and anything relating to her success to Thutmose I and II. Though this happened 20 years into Thutmose's sole reign so it is now believed that this theory is purely just a theory.

This coming from Mr 70% in his trials, eh Cohen??

Lets not forget the theory that it was actually Akenhaten who defaced Hatshepsuts monuments, in an attempt to promote his new god, and remove all traces of Amun. Because Hatshepsut was so closely linked to Amun (not to mention she was female) she was an ideal target.

This doesn't however explain how all traces of other Pharaohs were not defaced.

Personally I don't believe that Thutmose III was spiteful about Hatshepsut. I think he did it to promote his own family history, the Thutmosids.

As Cohen says, it would not have been hard for Hatshepsut to have had Thutmose III eliminated when he was a child, if she feared his accession.

Thutmose III still held significant power during the so called "Co-regency" which is a common misconception of some people, who believe that she was an "evil stepmother" who kept Thutmose III 'locked away' it would seem.

I disagree with this theory. Also, if Thutmose III was so eager to gain full Pharaonic power, why did he wait so long to overthrow Hatshepsut? He must have been satisfied to a certain extent.

And as far as structuring your response to say that she was a "good NKE king," be sure to use correct terminology, and avoid the word "good," as this can have many interpretations.

Hope this helps somewhat.

Good fight Cohen, I'll be seeing you in the Band 6 section of Ancient History ... Not!!!

 

[Adam.Meads]

Re: The burning question.

In your opinion, did thutmose III hate his step mother or was he quite happy with her succession as Pharaoh?

I'm inclined to think he didn't all that much mind, but the general concensus among some historians (most male and from the dark ages of gender inequality) think he held some animosity towards his stepmother.

That was the question? Did he hate his step mother [Hatshepsut]? Seems a generalised sort of statement.

I'm inclined to think, due to the fact that he had 20 years in which to overthrow his step mother, and opted not to, that he didnt strictly hate her. Yet he must have felt ashamed in the 'post Hatshepsut era' that he had allowed Egypt to be ruled by a woman.

In my opinion, he defaced her monuments in order to promote the legacy of the Thutmosids, in particular his Grandfather, Thutmose I.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

This coming from Mr 70% in his trials, eh Cohen??

Lets not forget the theory that it was actually Akenhaten who defaced Hatshepsuts monuments, in an attempt to promote his new god, and remove all traces of Amun. Because Hatshepsut was so closely linked to Amun (not to mention she was female) she was an ideal target.

Never heard that before - what's your source?

Thutmose III still held significant power during the so called "Co-regency" which is a common misconception of some people, who believe that she was an "evil stepmother" who kept Thutmose III 'locked away' it would seem.

I disagree with this theory.

So do I, but it has merit. You need to remember that Egyptian parents of non-royal descent (Teti -> Meriteti, Mentuhotep I -> Mentuhotep II, Ahmose -> Kamose, Yuya/Tuya, Ramesside parents, etc etc...) frequently exerted a lot of power. This includes the mothers. The 'so called "co-regency"' as you say, has a LOT of evidence for it - I don't think one can dismiss it.

Rather than saying she was an evil stepmother, though, I think we should say that simply TIII was too young to exercise the throne, and that she acted on his behalf as a placeholder for the king. We seem to judge these people based on our own standards - it was okay for them to move kingship around, so long as it was a) justifiable and b) ending up in the right place.

Also, if Thutmose III was so eager to gain full Pharaonic power, why did he wait so long to overthrow Hatshepsut? He must have been satisfied to a certain extent.

Simply put, she was Pharaoh. It was very difficult to overthrow a Pharaoh - in fact, there are no successful coinsurances of it in stable Egyptian history. The conspiracy against Teti which had him assassinated resulted in a failure - Userkare reigned for less than a year before Pepy booted him out. Then we have the Amenemhat possible assassination, which also definitely failed - Senuseret took over. Then we have the Ramesside problems, which consistently failed until the country literally fell apart, and all the local rulers took control.

Ie, overthrowing simply did not happen unless there was a power-vacuum, eg post-Amarna.

 

[Adam.Meads]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

The 'so called "co-regency"' as you say, has a LOT of evidence for it - I don't think one can dismiss it.

I'm not dismissing it, nor am I in denial that this "co-regency" ever occurred. I was just questioning the implications of what defines a "co-regency," hence the use of inverted commas. Thutmosid III still maintained some control, although not to the same extent as Hatshepsut.

My "source" for the theory on Akenhaten and the Aten, his 'new god,' is just something our teacher has made mention of a few times. She also stated not to use it as any form of basis for a response, but just to perhaps make note of the possibility of this theory. I don't believe it is a widely recognised theory, and your lack of knowledge on this subject confirms my beliefs.

And thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding about the power struggles in Egypt - the use of specific examples was exemplary in my understanding. I have often wondered why she managed to reign for so long, but now I understand that by using the Divine Birth concept, she managed to establish a sole reign, and that it was rather difficult to simply usurp, or overthrow a pharaoh.

Thanks alot Pwar, I value your opinions and knowledge

 

[xeuyrawp]

Here is a great article on the matter.

I think he's a great scholar and sums it up pretty well. Can't wait to see him in action.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

I'm not dismissing it, nor am I in denial that this "co-regency" ever occurred. I was just questioning the implications of what defines a "co-regency," hence the use of inverted commas. Thutmosid III still maintained some control, although not to the same extent as Hatshepsut.

My "source" for the theory on Akenhaten and the Aten, his 'new god,' is just something our teacher has made mention of a few times. She also stated not to use it as any form of basis for a response, but just to perhaps make note of the possibility of this theory. I don't believe it is a widely recognised theory, and your lack of knowledge on this subject confirms my beliefs.

And thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding about the power struggles in Egypt - the use of specific examples was exemplary in my understanding. I have often wondered why she managed to reign for so long, but now I understand that by using the Divine Birth concept, she managed to establish a sole reign, and that it was rather difficult to simply usurp, or overthrow a pharaoh.

Thanks alot Pwar, I value your opinions and knowledge

The big problem with the Amarna period is that we know Akhenaten had a bit push against the Theban power-base, so we have a fair bit of evidence of erasure there, as you would expect in the Cult centre of Amun. The problem is, the Theban area forms our greatest bit of evidence for this time as it simply has survived...

I've always wondered how he treated the other centres like Abydos (which is quite close to Tell el-Amarna), Memphis, Aswan/Elephantine... Just no evidence, unfortunately. Especially unfortunately with Memphis, being covered in modern Cairo.

 

[COhex]

Meadsy has never sounded so sophisticated in real life so his trolling skills are ++ ^^

I've got nothing productive to add to this discussion.

PwarYuex be careful, I think someone likes you.

May the force be with everyone on Thursday and let's hope for one of the essay questions to be easy

I know I'm stuffed if say the first one involved talking about Amenhotep II and Thutmose IV and the second one is to talk about the Amun priesthood... Cause those are the two subjects I know least of!

 

[samuel slack]

May the force be with everyone on Thursday and let's hope for one of the essay questions to be easy

Lol. I second that. May the force be with you, my young apprentices. :rofl:

 

[xeuyrawp]

Meadsy has never sounded so sophisticated in real life so his trolling skills are ++ ^^

I've got nothing productive to add to this discussion.

PwarYuex be careful, I think someone likes you.

May the force be with everyone on Thursday and let's hope for one of the essay questions to be easy

I know I'm stuffed if say the first one involved talking about Amenhotep II and Thutmose IV and the second one is to talk about the Amun priesthood... Cause those are the two subjects I know least of!

Should I be worried or excited?!

 

[Adam.Meads]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

Never heard that before - what's your source?

Pwar, read Chapter 11 of the book by Jennifer Lawless (Sorry, forgotten the name). It is the chapter on Akenhaten, and it makes mention of the possibility of his defacing the monuments and inscriptions in order to promote his new god, the Aten.

There is one major problem with this ... Why would he promote the Thutmosids?

However, it attempts to resolve the question of why Thutmose III would deface monuments to Amun, his very own god.

The theory suggests that both may have played roles, with Thutmose's being far more widely recognised and accepted.

 

[Adam.Meads]

Meadsy has never sounded so sophisticated in real life so his trolling skills are ++ ^^

I've got nothing productive to add to this discussion.

PwarYuex be careful, I think someone likes you.

May the force be with everyone on Thursday and let's hope for one of the essay questions to be easy

I know I'm stuffed if say the first one involved talking about Amenhotep II and Thutmose IV and the second one is to talk about the Amun priesthood... Cause those are the two subjects I know least of!

Maybe learn them then Cohenius?

Haha, someone likes you. Hey Cohen, he's smart. Thats the difference!!

Good luck on Thursday mate, cya there.

 

[$@/\/\]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

The Armana Period could hav originated with Amenhotep III though, we have evidence that HE actually started showing the sun disk during his reign however, Akenaten was the one who took the funds from all other cults and dedicated them to Aten.

Question: What goes up must come down. The New Kingdom is representing the height of the Egyptian Empire but where did the downfall originate. Some say it was Amenhotep III because he didn't conduct military campaigns, others blame Akenaten due to his conversion from Amun to Aten. Who actually started the downfall of the Egyptian Empire?

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: hatchepsut - 'evil stepmother'

The Armana Period could hav originated with Amenhotep III though, we have evidence that HE actually started showing the sun disk during his reign however, Akenaten was the one who took the funds from all other cults and dedicated them to Aten.

Question: What goes up must come down. The New Kingdom is representing the height of the Egyptian Empire but where did the downfall originate. Some say it was Amenhotep III because he didn't conduct military campaigns, others blame Akenaten due to his conversion from Amun to Aten. Who actually started the downfall of the Egyptian Empire?

Well there's a lot of evidence to show that the sun cult was being promoted under Amenhotep III, that Akhenaten was schooled in Heliopolis, etc etc.

'Who started the downfall' is a flawed question because it implies that only one person can start a downfall. Maybe the Egyptian state was modelled poorly, and thus it was not anyone's fault, but rather the historical development of the state?

 

[xeuyrawp]

Ooh, just came back from first Egypt in the Early 18th Dynasty class. Here are the texts that we're doing:

1. Inscription of Thutmosis II, recording a rebellion in Nubia,
2. Inscription of Hatshepsut on the northern obelisk at Karnak,
3. Texts of the Punt expedition,
4. The autobiography of Ineni,
5. The autobiography of Amenemheb,
6. The poetical stele of Thutmosis III, with a comparision to the Amenhotep III and Ramesses II copies.

= Happy.