Here's a thought? (1 Viewer)

[blind spirit]

While procrastinating the other day, i had a brain storm;
There are many of these 'exclusive' private schools who have the best of the best apparantly... and this is due to the fact thay they have so many A-grade facilities and so much $$$$. But has anyone ever though how such private schools would perform without their high school fees and ridiculous amount of government revenue...?
i mean if the top ten schools are predominantly public/selective/state, whatever you want to call them, and private schools go just as well as ordinary private schools then why the hell don't public schools get a little bit more $$$$ to be put on the same playing field as these private schools' students.....

I'd like to see just how well they'd go without all the extra money.....

no offence to private schools or anything, i think they have the best facilities that could be offered to students...
maybe the government gives all this extra money because private schools have special learning needs? and they need all this money to compete with us

whats everyones thoughts on these?
what are the benefits of going to a private school? does one just become overwhelmed by the class?
perhaps after attending such a school the luxuries are too great and not enough emphasis is placed on school work, and too much is placed on sporting traditions and extra-curricular activities?
anyway i'm procrastinating again, and i dont even know if this makes as much sense as i wanted it to, but anyway post your thoughts......
night.

 

[bobo123]

why bother whinging about it
i guess because you go to sydney boys, you get extra exposure to it but you guys consistently do well in hsc anyway. Theres no need to level the playing field, your school probably beats all the GPS combined, except Grammar of course

 

[tooheyz]

yeah i go to a private skool, and our facilities arent they too great. to me its pretty standard, but to others its... its more like a 'tafe'

my skool fees are about 3g a year, but it varies depending on the subjects ya do, i do all the IT and science stuff, so most of my fees goes towards getting new eqip and maintaining them...

but yeah, lately we've got this copycard thing happening in the skool, and we're gonna get ducted air pretty soon.

but other than that, i think most private skools are pretty standard, unless ur talking about the skool up north with the marble toilets and the digital card swiping thing. i think thats just ridiculus.

if u ask me, if i had the choice, i would of went to a public skool, my skool fees are way too much for my liking. but i guess the other advantage private skool has over public is their disciplane.

man, i cant believe i took the time to type all this

 

[yeahyeahyeahs]

well I've been private since grade 4 so I'm not sure about how the public schools work and I can only speak on behalf of myself but:

1). you get spoonfed at private schools. and since im unmotivated and lazy this is quite good. plus most of the teachers are good arguably and can teach. they also really take care of you and make sure your doing fine. the pastoral care is also strong.
2). you look respectable. got your preppy uniform and all with rules and regulations to keep you looking unskanky (not saying that all public kids are) and neat. i get lots of old people talking to me about how i look so much more respectable than the girl opposite whose skirt is hitched so it covers the bare neccessities (just so happens she goes to a public school).
3). sport and music and extra-cirricular is strong like IGSAA and other competitions you can do. although i stopped contributing to school life in grade 8 so this isnt really important to me.
4). your school generally does well so you get scaled up or something.

but theres also a bad side: the inevitable snobbiness (especially at an allgirls school like mine), intense competition, amazingly its difficult to see where our fees are going (we still dont have aircon) and the endless rules and regulations (no jumpers outside of school without a blazer and no sleeves rolled up etc).

saying all that i think schools dont matter. just because our parents want to fork out $15k a year for tuition fees it doesnt make us very different...we are all students sitting the HSC. all i can think of now but I dont think there is much advantage...if your motivated and studious youll do well at whatever school. hope that was of use. xx

 

[losty]

just to st this straight the government barely gives private schools any money and im sick of public schools campaigning for more... for shit sake the majority of the fucking education budget goes to you....

i go to a catholic school so its hlaf way between and we have shit facilities... we pay school fees but not as much as private and we get gov money but not nearly as much as public... so really we are probably the worst off...

the money side of things has nothing to do with educational achievement...getting rid of their money wouldnt effect results as the studnets would still be the same... having a gym or a few extra computers as private school has doesnt improve learning as much as your making it out to... i just tends to be that private/systemic (i think) schools have students who care more about their education than public... i know im making generalisations but aside from selective schools that the general consensus....

 

[um..]

private schools have higher quality drugs then public schools


i'd imagine that would be the major difference

 

[tammer]

Originally posted by um..
private schools have higher quality drugs then public schools


i'd imagine that would be the major difference

yeah... i'd have to say that some of the public school drugs are pretty dodge. made under the house with stolen chemicals from school. not that i've done it! *whistles and looks away*

 

[kini mini]

Originally posted by blind spirit
There are many of these 'exclusive' private schools who have the best of the best apparantly... and this is due to the fact thay they have so many A-grade facilities and so much $$$$.

I'll start by saying that I went to a public primary school, and was offered the chance to go to Sydney Boys' or Grammar at the end of year 6. I chose Grammar and I think I made the right choice.

But the right choice for one person, as Cyph suggested, isn't the right choice for everyone. All schools cater for some types of people much better than others, and Grammar is peculiar amongst the "exclusive" private schools in that it has an unusually strong academic ethos. This is reinforced by the competitive entry for places in year 7 and the 20 or so scholarships awarded every year. This and other aspects of the Grammar atmosphere suited me very well, but others didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I did.

I think that there are many reasons that private schools attract the best of the best, starting with the reasons people sit ACER scholarship/entrance exams for private schools in the first place. It's a well known fact that in general private schools do in fact have better resources and more committed and skilled faculties than public schools because acquiring these things is a question of hard cash. But are these things directly linked to your HSC results? I don't think that HSC results are the only reason people send their kids to private schools. Having actually attended one for six years, I assure you that the boast of a well-rounded liberal humanist education espoused by Gramamr and others is not idle at all. Most of the money goes to this end, excellent results can come from this or not depending on the culture of the school. Kings and Joeys are far more exclusive than Grammar and have much nicer facilities, but last I heard they were fighting for last place in the GPS HSC table.

But has anyone ever though how such private schools would perform without their high school fees and ridiculous amount of government revenue...?

In other words "How would private schools go if we made them into public schools?" .

The government provides funding to schools primarily on a per capita basis, there's the same amount per head for everybody AFAIK. Then they assess the socioeconomic status of the school population to see how much more should be given. It's really the fees that private school students pay that brings the extra benefit - a question of individual choice on the part of their parents. You belief as to the extent to which the government should redistribute tax revenue to the public and private systems determines whether you think this is fair.

[QUOTE
not enough emphasis is placed on school work, and too much is placed on sporting traditions and extra-curricular activities?[/B] [/QUOTE]

How much is too much? It's an individual question. There are private schools that people go to for the sporting culture, in which case there couldn't be too much. For me the benefit of going to Grammar was that there was a very intellectual atmosphere that I fit into, some people were really alienated by that though.

 

[Toodulu]

ooh, i go to a private school. it was quite a big change from my local primary school (oops i meant junior school ), where i did nothing all day except draw with crayons and play in the sand pit.
and then i went to a private school and everyone was writing essays, using big words, and their hobbies included reciting the whole of the english royal history. i remember getting told about Henry VIII and all of his wifes.

ok, i've gone off on a tangent.

anyway, the top few schools are public, yes. but they are usually very selective ones, so the students were already smart to begin with. whereas private = ppl willing to pay for education.

also, someone may not perform great academically, but they could be strong in art or sport... and private schools usually provide the best facility and environment for that whereas selective school students were selected on their academic abilities

 

[t-i-m-m-y]

Originally posted by Toodulu
ok, i've gone off on a tangent.

twice.

anyways i go to a "private skool" its tiny, no facilities and generally not all private skools are as good as some of your top selective skools

 

[muldersgun]

well, i go to a selective high and contrary to popular belief we actually do participate in a lot of sport/music/extracurricular activities. Of course you always have ppl who refuse to participate in anything, but most ppl value other stuff outside just as much as inside.

but we have really shitty science facilities though......

 

[Butterfly_Wings]

I think you are just as much in the running to get a high UAI at a run of the mill government high school...it will just be more work on your behalf. Maybe it's not exactly fair, but theres no use in worrying about it, and at the end of the day it won't make that big a difference to you rlife.*shrugg*

One thing that amused me when i arrived at UNI was all the private high school students complaining about the "terrible facilities"...my UNI is a palace compared to my high school!

 

[kini mini]

Originally posted by Butterfly_Wings
I think you are just as much in the running to get a high UAI at a run of the mill government high school...it will just be more work on your behalf.

In general, differences in people's work ethics and efficiency probably rule out a difference in the amount of work they will do IMO. Better teaching means more efficient learning, I think people make their own choices about volume. There wasn't a shortage of bludgers at Grammar.

One thing that amused me when i arrived at UNI was all the private high school students complaining about the "terrible facilities"...my UNI is a palace compared to my high school!

LOL I'm one of those . But I find that the public school people complain that they expect more for their $5000 or so, and we think we aren't getting a big enough discount!

 

[routemarker]

i only payed my school fees when i had to sign out in yr 10 and yr12 they freakin used that guilt trip...

 

[MiuMiu]

I just wanna clear one thing up.......the government gives very similar funding to private and public schools, it has to. The difference being, that private schools ask its students for more, which is where they get the money to build great facilities and entice all the best teachers from the public system.

Personally, I think too many people who go to public schools have attitude problems. Its a public school so they can't be made to pay the fees, but then both the student and the parent go and bitch about how facilities and stuff are shit. You don't get something for nothing.

 

[Navjeet]

Why do people always whine about private schools getting money from the government? Public schools get at least twice as much funding per student than private schools do.

Think about it this way: Parents who send their kids to private schools earn a fair bit of money, therefore thay pay a lot more tax than the average person (about 40% of their earnings in most cases). Doesn't it make sense that if a person is working so hard for that money and having to pay so much tax, that thier children should somehow benefit from it?

 

[HA-o_o-HA]

Did anyone else also think that private schools were independent...as in they didn't need funds....they were self-dependent?
Well....when the budget came out a while ago...apparently...private schools do receive funds from the govt...and quite a lot too...
I go to a public school....and from what i read in an annual report...we receive minimum funds from the govt...
TOTALLY UNFAIR...as public schools are dependent on the govt for fundings...and private schools are suppose to be self-dependent....so why the hell do they get funds?!?!
(i'm sorry if i'm offending anyone...)
Also...from stuff that i've been told from my private school friends....they are spoonfed...
to me...that's just putting money to waste...instead of employing competent teachers.....they choose to "decorate" their school....

That's all i have to say
and I'm really sorry if i offend anyone!
But i just wanted to voice my opinion....

 

[Twintip]

Originally posted by YEAR12
I just wanna clear one thing up.......the government gives very similar funding to private and public schools, it has to. The difference being, that private schools ask its students for more, which is where they get the money to build great facilities and entice all the best teachers from the public system.

Personally, I think too many people who go to public schools have attitude problems. Its a public school so they can't be made to pay the fees, but then both the student and the parent go and bitch about how facilities and stuff are shit. You don't get something for nothing.

To add weight to your argument, I'd just like to make a little correction, private schools get MUCH LESS funding per student than public schools. The reality is, the public school system needs private schools to survive, without them, public education would crumble due to both sheer numbers and the face that the Government couldn't afford subsidising all those extra students.

Edit: oops, Navjeet just made that comment, but I'll leave it here.

HA-o_o-HA, I am not offended, but your opinion is somewhat uneducated and narrow minded (sorry, don't take it personally, but you don't know what you are talking about). The fairest system for everybody would be that the government gave EVERY school student in the state $2000. 'Public' school fees then become $2000 a year and private school fees remain at $14,000 a year. So those that choose to go to a public school effectively get free schooling while those who choose a private schooling only need to dig $12,000 out of their own pockets.

In reality, the government gives public school students twice as much money as private school students to start with. So it's actually UNFAIR on us PRIVATE SCHOOL STUDENTS. Not the other way around, the way you suggest.

I know that doesn't actually happen in that way, but it is a useful way of showing what the Government does with it's funds in terms of distributing it among students.

To add to this, my parents are still paying for public education in their taxes even though I don't use it. Do you think that is fair? If so why?

So private school students and their parents are getting screwed by the government in at least two ways.

You talk about private schools using government money to 'make their schools look pretty'. It's actually the $12,000 extra that we pay that goes towards buildings, technology, other facilities, etc. If we didn't pay that extra money, private schools would look exactly like public schools.

Private schools do employ competent teachers. That is the reason that some spoon-feeding results - the teachers are that good that they can present the syllabus to the students on a platter. That said, the students still need to know the syllabus back-to-front for the HSC exams or else they'll fall flat on their faces.

 

[pinkbella]

I'm aware what I'm about to say will sound really snobby, but I don't give a shit because I'm sick to death of hearing about this. I went to a private school my whole schooling life, so I do feel strongly about the argument.

Twintip said it all, our parents are paying for public education through taxes. They are also paying a shitload for their own children to be educated. So just shut up about the whole funding thing. If you want your school to have better facilities, why not ask your parents to pay the involuntary school fees instead of telling the school to so eloquently "fuck off" as natstar put it.

If your family can't afford it, that's fair enough. But those families that can - and I imagine there would be quite a few that could afford something like $2000 a year...that's $38 a week. Everyone's entitled to a decent education, but the least you could do is pay a bit for it. As year12 pointed out, you don't get something for nothing in this commerce based society.

And WHY is the whole education argument about facilites anyway? Oh wow, so private schools have 50m indoor swimming pools...you do realise that will in no way assist HSC results, don't you? And a lot of the top performing schools in the HSC aren't private. James Ruse kicks everyone's ass every year and it's not private. Cheltenham Girls did well too. So do Sydney Boys/Girls. The HSC is really all about good old fashioned pen to paper, learning from textbooks. State of the art facilities do not assist this. Good teachers do, but I imagine the teachers at private schools would want to do a better job considering they're getting paid a lot more. And there are some teachers in private schools who don't care. We're not all spoonfed - I don't think I've been spoonfed schoolwork since year 10. That meant I did the whole HSC on my own without the force of a teacher at a private school and my marks weren't really anything to boast about.

And on another note, why are public school students allowed to call private school students snobs it's acceptable, but if private school students call public school students yobbos it's rude? It's not fair.

Sorry if I've offended everyone but I spent 13 years being branded a stuck up rich bitch snob by people who hadn't even met me. That pissed me off a lot. And seriously, everybody has the power to do well at the HSC. It may take a little more effort if you go to a worse off school, but if you want it badly enough, you'll do it whatever it takes. Bitching about those who have it easier achieves nothing.

 

[kini mini]

Originally posted by Navjeet with variations by pinkbella and Twintip
Think about it this way: Parents who send their kids to private schools earn a fair bit of money, therefore thay pay a lot more tax than the average person (about 40% of their earnings in most cases). Doesn't it make sense that if a person is working so hard for that money and having to pay so much tax, that thier children should somehow benefit from it?

Navjeet, pinkbella and Twintip, you've all made this argument about the "fairness" of the current funding scheme. It's a perfectly valid argument, but it won't convince the public school people IMO for the following reasons -

We are all talking about fairness and equality, but we understand them to mean different things.

If we interpret fairness very literally and simplistically, we would treat everyone exactly the same . This is a seductively simple idea. It's also quite silly IMO (nothing personal Twintip). People aren't identical and will naturally have different needs, wants and aspirations. What we should ask here is why more affluent people in society tend to accept higher marginal tax rates. The answer is that we have a system of tax transfers in Australia where income is generally speaking redistributed from the affluent to the needy to guarantee a minimum quality of life. This is the interpretation of equality that people like HA-o_o-HA are intuitively making, known as the substantive approach. This concentrates on outcomes rather than on the formal, literal idea of identical treatment.

So, to what extent is it "fair" that private schools are funded at all? As I said before, your opinion as to the extent to which the government should redistribute tax revenue to the public and private systems determines whether you think this is fair. Navjeet, Twintip and pinkbella think that the current scheme is fine because our parents pay a lot of money in tax and they should receive some nonzero educational benefit from this. I understand what you guys are trying to say here, and many people would agree with this interpretation of equality, but I disagree and I'm sure most the public school people would too albeit for reasons of varying quality.

I feel that it would be more accurate to say in defence of the pricate school system that when weighing up the priorities between the public and state systems, it is reasonable that some funding is given to support the education of all students irreespective of their socioeconomic background. Our goal is to produce well educated young people, and if some parents want a different sort of education (private and public schools have totally different philosophies in my experience) as a society we will support them to the extent that our goal will be satisfied. This approach doesn't explicitly consider the wealth of the parents, it concentrates on the outcome. This is the interpretation of equality that best applies to school funding IMO - we should understand the entire debate through the goal of creating the opportunity for every student to fulfill their potential.

Of course, private schools have a lot more money that public schools, but as many have said this is because parents pay up to $16-17K a year in fees. Why not make parents bear the full cost of education? Not because the parents pay however much tax, but because it is in the public interest that every student be helped to achieve their potential. Effectively the government is saying "Here you go, this is the amount of money we think is enough to get you the basics, if you are willing to pay for some of the basics yourself that's great, and if you want to buy the optional extras it's your money and you can do what you want with it." Private school parents think it's worth doing this, public school parents don't or can't afford to. Should society provide all these facilities to public schools just because most families can't afford them? No, we make a judgment between these luxuries and necessities in other areas.

Originally posted by pinkbella
Sorry if I've offended everyone but I spent 13 years being branded a stuck up rich bitch snob by people who hadn't even met me. That pissed me off a lot. And seriously, everybody has the power to do well at the HSC. It may take a little more effort if you go to a worse off school, but if you want it badly enough, you'll do it whatever it takes. Bitching about those who have it easier achieves nothing.

I'm not even rich and I get that. I agree about the HSC too, in the end it comes down to your own work and nothing can save you if you don't get off your butt.