Highly intelligent animals in captivity - yes/no? (3 Viewers)

[Silver Persian]

Because man is bestowed a certain dignity and ability to distinguish right from wrong, which is denied to the beasts.

Well I'm not sure how to respond to this. Because, obviously you are wrong about everything, so I must be able to criticise you in some way here.

I suppose the two questions I'm thinking about are:
-Is moral consideration based upon a degree of reciprocity? Do you lose the right to moral consideration if you don't give moral consideration to others?
-If you aren't intelligent enough to engage in moral consideration, is it fair to lose the moral consideratino of others?

 

[Iron]

How does morality have much to do with intelligence? We boil our whole moral life down to the concept of universal love, no matter how smart you or others are, or how others treat you. Love is stronger than evil, it is written on the hearts of all men, it reaches its zenith at the sacrifice of one life for another.

Call off your evil campaign against me!

 

[Silver Persian]

How does morality have much to do with intelligence? We boil our whole moral life down to the concept of universal love, no matter how smart you or others are, or how others treat you. Love is stronger than evil, it is written on the hearts of all men, it reaches its zenith at the sacrifice of one life for another.

Call off your evil campaign against me!

So, animals can't distinguish between right and wrong because they cannot love? As opposed to not being intelligent enough?

 

[Iron]

Dont complicate this, homoSPan. Animals, strictly, do not have rights because they were not made in God's image - they are not bestowed with the unique reason and self-control given to us. We conceed that we have a similar duty to them as we do to all of God's creation, but their status is undeniably subordinated to the good welfare of man.

 

[Tangent]

Ok, even if humans are made in gods image and animals are below us etc.
Does that still give us a right to keep animals in captivity?

When it boils down it doesnt really mean anything

 

[Cookie182]

What exactly is "universal love"?

Define it. Instruct us on how one engages in this practice?

What is love Iron?

 

[Iron]

God

 

[Cookie182]

God

What is God?....(waits)...Universal Love!!

Ad infinitum.

 

[Iron]

Ok, even if humans are made in gods image and animals are below us etc.
Does that still give us a right to keep animals in captivity?

When it boils down it doesnt really mean anything

Absolutely. Humans have a right and need to view the majesty of all of God's creation. Zoos are a practical way to offer this connection to the most amount of people - esp city people living in highly artificial environments that block out much of God's creation.

It is very wrong to view the welfare of beasts on par with the welfare of man. Cannot you see that this is the very essence of the dictatorship of relativism???

 

[Iron]

What is God?....(waits)...Universal Love!!

Ad infinitum.

I cant put God in a box frendo. But as far as we are certain, we know that He IS this crazy mixture of reason and faith which we call love. Accept it, come beck to Rome and find your peace

 

[Tangent]

Even if you dont view the welfare of man and animal as equally important, it doesnt justify keeping them locked up. They are not slaves just put on this earth so we can google at them, they are living as well.

If you live in the city, go out and travel to their habitat and look at them. Don't be lazy. It sounds like materialism, that we should see as much as we can see in this life even if it hurts ohter living things.

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

no, unless conservation is needed

 

[Kwayera]

no, unless conservation is needed

I lean towards this perspective except even less so with regards to conservation, as there are serious misgivings about the efficacy of captive studbooks - there's a tendancy to select for characteristics that ensure ease of captivity rather than simulating natural selection, such as good temperament or docility.

 

[katie tully]

Yes, no, maybe, I don't know.

I would much prefer scientific shit to be done in situ, and I think even the nicest facilities can never really replicate the real life environment for these animals.

Like sure, Mr. Dolphin has a big tank with fresh water in which he/she can frolic in, but really, does it have the same smell and mystique and stuff as the ocean? It'd be like giving a human a really nice, big room, where you get to look out the window and you get fed on cue, etc. Yeah that's nice, but surely it has to get boring after a while. Right?

And what about this feeding on cue thing. The whole experience of being a wild, highly intelligent animal is that you just don't know when you're gon get fed!

Yeah I have no idea obviously, about anything, but idk I'm leaning towards the 'nah' column.

It makes me when I see the meerkat enclosure. It's like, common guyz, these little fellas go for 3km roams every day, diggin holes, eating bugs, evading large birds. I know they're probably feeble in comparison to a dolphin or whatever, but I'm sure they get sick of pissing on the same 3 sticks everyday too.

 

[Kwayera]

I get the same when I go and see the tiger and it's pacing back and forth with a blank expression on its face, or the snow leopards which are stuck with their arctic coats in the Aussie heat, on a rock.

Re: dolphins and orcas in particular, it's more the mental stimulation of sound, which obviously they communicate with. I can't imagine how distracting and distressing it would be to go from open ocean, which is intricately and infinitely featured, to a flat, featureless, tiny pool, with all the associated changes in acoustics.

 

[katie tully]

Oh god it's horrible.

I tried to take photos of the lions and they were just like 'will you fucking fuck off woman' and walked to the back of the enclosure which is like a whole 10 metres or something.

Don't lions like to run and pounce and bounce?

 

[katie tully]

The only time I can somewhat condone the captivity thing is when you have those specialised retreat places on acres and acres.

Like the guy with the wolves, and he studies the wolves but they have a few acres to roam around in. Or there was a lion guy who had a retreat for the lions, and because they only had lions and not 34573496 other animals, there was room for the lions to bounce and pounce

 

[Kwayera]

In the wild, lions actually do a whole lot of nothing - they sleep most of the day. This is punctuated with a few hours of explosive activity - i.e. hunting - and all the intelligence and mental stimulation that requires and provides. They don't get any of that in captivity.

Lionesses in captivity often become hyperfertile just to relieve the boredom.

 

[Kwayera]

The only time I can somewhat condone the captivity thing is when you have those specialised retreat places on acres and acres.

Like the guy with the wolves, and he studies the wolves but they have a few acres to roam around in. Or there was a lion guy who had a retreat for the lions, and because they only had lions and not 34573496 other animals, there was room for the lions to bounce and pounce

That's the kind of captivity I don't necessarily mind for highly intelligent animals. There was a place I went to in Palau that was a research station for dolphins, and they had huge seapens where the dolphins spent most of their time - being dolphins. Research was done in closed-off sections of the seapens; not a tank or a crowd in sight.

 

[katie tully]

Okay so they're lazy cunts, but if they wanted to they can get up and look at a different rock or something for a change.

They just look miserable. Their faces might be normal lion faces, and I could be reading into this too much, but it's just gah

Dubbo is a little bit better than Taronga in that it's open plains, so most of the animals have a decent area to frolic in. The lions aren't in an enclosure with a perspex wall, they've got an island surrounded by a moat and a tyre swing. Haha. Tyre swing.