Howard's migration plan (2 Viewers)

[sam04u]

What is wrong with bloody Israeli's/Jews/Zionists (whatever, I don't care about the differences) and bloody Muslims/Lebanese/Arabs/whatever (again I'm dumb and I don't know what the intricate differences are and I dont give a stuff)

Can't those freaking people just get alone, ffs!

I can and have, go back through this thread history, you'll see who brang the racism to this thread. It's the xenophobes like Aryan, who think they're better then Muslims and Arabs(and then spin stories about people driving around looking for people to bash). What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed. They say, believing the state shouldn't exist is racism. Infact it's the 'RIGHT' to exercise Freedom of Thought and Freedom of Speech.

Re: Aryan,
The barrier only exists in the minds of xenophobes and haters such as yourself. You're an idiot, and a racist and It's people like you who polarise the radicals. I don't even know why you think you have any credibility about discussing Australian politics, since you don't even consider yourself to be one. Please keep your imbecilic, racist and demeaning (to mankind) thoughts to yourself. Especially when they involve "AUSTRALIAN" politics, and "AUSTRALIAN" people.

-End

 

[nwatts]

I can and have, go back through this thread history, you'll see who brang the racism to this thread. It's the xenophobes like Aryan, who think they're better then Muslims and Arabs(and then spin stories about people driving around looking for people to bash). What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed. They say, believing the state shouldn't exist is racism. Infact it's the 'RIGHT' to exercise Freedom of Thought and Freedom of Speech.

Re: Aryan,
The barrier only exists in the minds of xenophobes and haters such as yourself. You're an idiot, and a racist and It's people like you who polarise the radicals. I don't even know why you think you have any credibility about discussing Australian politics, since you don't even consider yourself to be one. Please keep your imbecilic, racist and demeaning (to mankind) thoughts to yourself. Especially when they involve "AUSTRALIAN" politics, and "AUSTRALIAN" people.

Hahaha, 1. "brang" is not a word and 2. Freedom of Thought is not a division of the Ministry of Peace (lose the caps)

Don't generalise as to how aryan's words affect mankind. I had the impression you were against generalisations? You seem to have enough in you to discuss foreign politics. Are you Israeli? Hmmm

(people with minds - i realise i'm "attacking the man" or whatever it is in latin, but it's the easiest way to show how stupid this guy is)

 

[JayB]

sam, two blatant descrepancies in your argument my fine friend, why is it racism for Aryan to express his views, but freedom of speech for you to declare yours about the state of israel. surely they fall under the same headline.

secondly, if not considering oneself a member of a country removes oneself from the ability to comment on said countries politics, then where do you get off commenting on israels, since you certainly dont consider yourself a resident of it.

lastly, for someone who claims that 95% of jews support a rascist opinion, im wondering how much dialog you've actually had with jewish people, that isnt in a forum, but in a conversation over msn, or whatever else in real-time, or dare i assume it, real life. and if you haven't, would you like to?

you haven't answered any of my questions in the forum thus far, but please do take a look at these, i have a feeling it will be beneficial to anyone involved.

 

[sam04u]

sam, two blatant descrepancies in your argument my fine friend, why is it racism for Aryan to express his views, but freedom of speech for you to declare yours about the state of israel. surely they fall under the same headline.

secondly, if not considering oneself a member of a country removes oneself from the ability to comment on said countries politics, then where do you get off commenting on israels, since you certainly dont consider yourself a resident of it.

lastly, for someone who claims that 95% of jews support a rascist opinion, im wondering how much dialog you've actually had with jewish people, that isnt in a forum, but in a conversation over msn, or whatever else in real-time, or dare i assume it, real life. and if you haven't, would you like to?

you haven't answered any of my questions in the forum thus far, but please do take a look at these, i have a feeling it will be beneficial to anyone involved.

I've answered half of these questions previously. I've had alot of jewish friends I even had two which were in the Israeli Defence Forces. But, recently I've stopped contacting them. Especially, when they they were trying to convince me about something they were brainwashed to believe. We spoke on IRC and Aim.

International politics is different to national politics. But where it goes against human rights, it's open to 'public' opinion. I don't think aryan has a right to praise a racist remark by the prime minister especially when Aryan doesn't consider himself to be Australian.

Aryan sidetracks then uses information that has little or no bearing to the situation. (Like a few men arrested for violence) then uses this data to generalise that all muslims are violent and they don't assimilate into Australia. Even though, Muslim-Australians, have taken part in all parts of Australian life. Including pop-culture and sporting and all other things. She criticises saying that muslim-Australians haven't assimilate when almost ALL of the 500,000 Jews living in Australia live in Bondi, and usually haven't stepped foot outside there little mini communities. Proving that they haven't properly integrated into Australian Society.

Generalising on a whole religion based on the actions of a small minority is racism. It's commonly known that the majority of Lebanese-Australian, migrated to Australia in times where jobs where slowly switching to machinery and factory and what not. Prior to this many worked on conveyor belts and in Landscaping and what not. It's commonly known that people of low socio-economic backgrounds are more prone to violence. The next generation will definately be better off, and it's already evident of the ammount of assimilation.

Re: nwatts
Thanks for pointing that out, It's an easy mistake when making large posts in short ammounts of time. Also Freedom of Conscience should be somewhere in there.
(lose the caps), I think you need a few, like in the word 'i', it needs to be 'capitalised'.

 

[JayB]

sam,

"http://www.answers.com/topic/jews-by-country" - i dont know where you got 500000 from, or if you were just using hyperbole to get your point across, but these figures are much more accurate, and much closer to the truth. as in every country, except israel, jews are a ridiculously small minority. nowhere near 500000, as much as id like that.

second of all, if we move away from Aryan's arguments, and focus on howards, do you contest that there is a minority of Muslims in australia who refuse to integrate? im not mentioning a majority, or even a large minority, just wondering whether you would contest that there is an element in Muslim society that refuses to.

also, isnt the treatment of people who are of another country of origin an international issue? thus giving anyone the right to comment on it? i notice that the un has quite a few forums on it, whihc kinda brings it to the forefront of international affairs.

i wonder though, which remark by john howard is the one that you consider rascist? and in your mention of the fact that israel shouldnt exist, why dont you think the same about australia? the land was stolen by the colonials from the aboriginal people, who are now largely displaced?

sorry if this is getting tiresome for you, but i really dont get all that much of an opportunity to hear the views you are a proponent of first hand, its refreshing to hear something like that.

 

[sam04u]

sam,

"http://www.answers.com/topic/jews-by-country" - i dont know where you got 500000 from, or if you were just using hyperbole to get your point across, but these figures are much more accurate, and much closer to the truth. as in every country, except israel, jews are a ridiculously small minority. nowhere near 500000, as much as id like that.

second of all, if we move away from Aryan's arguments, and focus on howards, do you contest that there is a minority of Muslims in australia who refuse to integrate? im not mentioning a majority, or even a large minority, just wondering whether you would contest that there is an element in Muslim society that refuses to.

also, isnt the treatment of people who are of another country of origin an international issue? thus giving anyone the right to comment on it? i notice that the un has quite a few forums on it, whihc kinda brings it to the forefront of international affairs.

i wonder though, which remark by john howard is the one that you consider rascist? and in your mention of the fact that israel shouldnt exist, why dont you think the same about australia? the land was stolen by the colonials from the aboriginal people, who are now largely displaced?

sorry if this is getting tiresome for you, but i really dont get all that much of an opportunity to hear the views you are a proponent of first hand, its refreshing to hear something like that.

I meant 50,000 in Bondi.

 

[JayB]

by that token though, could one not mention lakemba in relation the the Muslim community?

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

it isnt just the muslims that refuse to "intergrate" also the reason why most muslims are angry is becaue he singled out muslims when there are lots of people that are not muslim that have not and do not wish to intergrate...

also he mentioned "muslim" ...i dont understand why he refered to the religious group rather then say that people from eg lebanon...

also it isnt just muslims living in lakember and there are many people in lakember that have "intergrated"

 

[JayB]

or leichardt, or brighton lesands, or any other cultural centre. i dont think that that is the key to integration. its just more about comfort in a new country, and a new countries comfort with you in it.

and fyi, the jews have had to integrate far more often then any other group of people in history, have been kicked out of more countries that anyone, and are more or less unique in this. so the jews ability to integrate is something that has been practised for 2000 years.

 

[JayB]

actually howard didnt mention muslims straight up, he said that there were minority groups living in australia that refused to integrate, and then someone asked him about the muslim community. but you are definately right that not only muslims refuse to integrate. that would be racial profiling, and hence wrong. i speak of elements in their community. and there are definately other people living in bondi who have integrated as well. similar situations. except rather than bondi, to make your claim more substantial, you should say the eastern suburbs.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

I can and have, go back through this thread history, you'll see who brang the racism to this thread. It's the xenophobes like Aryan, who think they're better then Muslims and Arabs(and then spin stories about people driving around looking for people to bash). What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed. They say, believing the state shouldn't exist is racism. Infact it's the 'RIGHT' to exercise Freedom of Thought and Freedom of Speech.

Re: Aryan,
The barrier only exists in the minds of xenophobes and haters such as yourself. You're an idiot, and a racist and It's people like you who polarise the radicals. I don't even know why you think you have any credibility about discussing Australian politics, since you don't even consider yourself to be one. Please keep your imbecilic, racist and demeaning (to mankind) thoughts to yourself. Especially when they involve "AUSTRALIAN" politics, and "AUSTRALIAN" people.

-End

Muslims think they are better than non -muslims, thats why they think their stoneage laws and ways of life are better and refuse to integrate, hence they want their Sharia Law in Australia, UK and Canada to be introduced which will allow women to be beaten in public for wearing jeans. Women to be stoned to death for slutting around while their men can do anything including marrying multiple wives to satisfy their animalistic lust.

What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed.

Lebanese thugs committing crimes or your people's failure to integrate is not Israel's problem. It's yours and it has nothing to do with the existence of Israel.

The barrier only exists in the minds of xenophobes and haters such as yourself.

I wonder what makes you less xenophobe than me, especially with almost all of your post directly or indirectly bashing jews/israel and wants to destroy israel. If there was no such barrier then you should for once stop complaining about how australian treat muslims. Cause there are no barriers and they are all normally treated like everyone else.(according to you)

It's people like you who polarise the radicals.

It is not my fault nor my problem that they choose violence as a means to chieve their aim, it is their problems.

I don't even know why you think you have any credibility about discussing Australian politics, since you don't even consider yourself to be one. Please keep your imbecilic, racist and demeaning (to mankind) thoughts to yourself. Especially when they involve "AUSTRALIAN" politics, and "AUSTRALIAN" people.

I have all the rights and duties afforded to Australian citizens except franchise. Now who is actively trying to stop people from exercising their rights to freedom of speech and expression. YOU, trying to stop me and your ISLAMIC LEADERS trying to stop Prime Minister John Howard. I'm privilegdged to stand side by side with John Howard on this issue because I know we are RIGHT. I must say threatening the Prime Minister with Riot/Violence is perhaps the most apporpriate respose you can get from Muslims. Who; according to them; are peace loving australians!

 

[Generator]

That's enough, Aryanbeauty. Any more of that and you will be banned.

Everyone else - if you are willing to give the above post your consideration, it would be best if you could counter the 'argument' without sinking down to Aryanbeauty's sub-gutter level.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

That's enough, Aryanbeauty. Any more of that and you will be banned.

Everyone else - if you are willing to give the above post your consideration, it would be best if you could counter the 'argument' without sinking down to Aryanbeauty's sub-gutter level.

But really what's so bad about it? Let's have a look:

Muslims think they are better than non -muslims, thats why they think their stoneage laws and ways of life are better and refuse to integrate, hence they want their Sharia Law in Australia, UK and Canada to be introduced which will allow women to be beaten in public for wearing jeans. Women to be stoned to death for slutting around while their men can do anything including marrying multiple wives to satisfy their animalistic lust.

The first point is true, absolutely true, at least in Canada: http://www.youmeworks.com/sharia_canada.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35850
With demographics and such there'll be Sharia Law in Scandinavia within 40 years, also. Is that our future? Did Howard have this in mind when commenting on integration?

Lebanese thugs committing crimes or your people's failure to integrate is not Israel's problem. It's yours and it has nothing to do with the existence of Israel.

Did sam actually say that it's Israel's fault that small groups in Australia haven't integrated though?
What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed.
Sounds like it to me.

Now who is actively trying to stop people from exercising their rights to freedom of speech and expression. YOU, trying to stop me and your ISLAMIC LEADERS trying to stop Prime Minister John Howard. I'm privilegdged to stand side by side with John Howard on this issue because I know we are RIGHT. I must say threatening the Prime Minister with Riot/Violence is perhaps the most apporpriate respose you can get from Muslims. Who; according to them; are peace loving australians!

Well what was actually said?
http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...logy-to-muslims/2006/09/01/1156817077523.html

John Howard sparked a backlash in some sections of Australia's Muslim community by saying on talk-back radio yesterday that Muslim migrants needed to conform to Australian values by learning English and treating women with respect.
...
There's a small section of the Islamic population which is unwilling to integrate,'' he said.

"And I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate, and that means speaking English as quickly as possible, it means embracing Australian values and it also means making sure that no matter what the culture of the country from which they come might have been, Australia requires women to be treated fairly and equally and in the same fashion as men.

"I don't retreat in any way from that. It doesn't involve singling out a group.''

So Howard believes a small portion of Muslim migrants are not assimilating and ought to:
- Learn English
- Respect women (presumably in accordance with our established laws).
No mention of race, Israel or freedom of speech here.

The response:

But the head of the Government's new Muslim advisory committee, Dr Ameer Ali, warned of trouble unless the Prime Minister backed down.

"We have already witnessed one incident in Sydney recently in Cronulla, I don't want these scenes to be repeated because when you antagonise the younger generation, younger group, they are bound to react,'' Dr Ali told Macquarie Radio.

He seems to be saying that, no, you can't say there are some people not integrating, or they might riot. This is coming from the Government's "Islamic Advisory Committee" (as opposed to the Episcopalian advisory committee?) of supposed "moderates" (whatever that means).

Really what we need is the so-called leaders agreeing that, at least, speaking English and respecting women isn't such a bad thing. You know, it's not, strictly speaking, Israel's fault that that's the case.

In fact it's quite legal in Australia to support Hizb Allah, and even demand Israel be destroyed, and some of us do: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/aust-j24.shtml
however ridiculous that might be.

As for Jewish people not integrating as sam suggests, according to wikipedia there are currently 110,000 Jews in Australia, and 281,600 Muslims. A comparable figure, yet there's no national Jewish Advisory Committee or similar, no threats of Cronulla-style riots from Rabbis, and no preaching of extremism in Australian synagogues.

To me one 'measure' of assimilation would be how often you hear about groups in the media regarding conflict between a certain community's values and our own. Though that may instead indicate how incompatible the migrants' culture is with our own rather than how well they've integrated.

 

[otay]

To me one 'measure' of assimilation would be how often you hear about groups in the media regarding conflict between a certain community's values and our own. Though that may instead indicate how incompatible the migrants' culture is with our own rather than how well they've integrated.

Or it may show how biased the media is? Are there are some muslims that have integrated? Yes. Are there some asians? Yes. Are there some people of the Jewish faith who consider themselve jews and not Australian (as if jew was a country)? Yes. Are there..... Yes every bloody migrant population has a minority who havent integrated well into Aussie culture. I think quite fairly the muslims feel like the have been victimised. I agree basically with what Howard said, but his single-ing out of muslims seems like some sort of stunt.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Muslims think they are better than non -muslims,

man i for 1 dont think im better then YOU but i KNOW i am:uhhuh: oh and everyone else is better then you as well

thats why they think their stoneage laws and ways of life are better and refuse to integrate,

thank you very much... this is the first time a non muslim agrees with me that islam is the only unchanged religion still exisiting...and that it is the words of god

hence they want their Sharia Law in Australia, UK and Canada to be introduced which will allow women to be beaten in public for wearing jeans.

im getting sick of this...first off there are many muslims women tha wear "jeans" and no they are NOT beaten up because of it...women are not beaten for what they wear

Women to be stoned to death for slutting around while their men can do anything including marrying multiple wives to satisfy their animalistic lust.

ok first off the men and women that cmmit adultery get stoned to death not ...

also the man can marry up to 4 wives everyone knows that however they must treat all 4 the equally

What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed.

Lebanese thugs committing crimes or your people's failure to integrate is not Israel's problem. It's yours and it has nothing to do with the existence of Israel.

ok well there are many people from many different nationalities that commit crimes NOT just lebanese "thugs"...also for your information most of these "lebanese thugs" were born and raised here so they are australian...

I don't even know why you think you have any credibility about discussing Australian politics, since you don't even consider yourself to be one. Please keep your imbecilic, racist and demeaning (to mankind) thoughts to yourself. Especially when they involve "AUSTRALIAN" politics, and "AUSTRALIAN" people.

I have all the rights and duties afforded to Australian citizens except franchise. Now who is actively trying to stop people from exercising their rights to freedom of speech and expression. YOU, trying to stop me and your ISLAMIC LEADERS trying to stop Prime Minister John Howard. I'm privilegdged to stand side by side with John Howard on this issue because I know we are RIGHT. I must say threatening the Prime Minister with Riot/Violence is perhaps the most apporpriate respose you can get from Muslims. Who; according to them; are peace loving australians!

since when was john howard a good prime minister...ok since YOU find him good can you please to me what he did that was so good...

oh wait the laws hes making that are taking away human rights and the workchoices laws and all those other laws are helping australia ...ok yeah ive got it

"i am priviledged to stand side by side with pm john howard" lol lol lol lol lol lol thats so funny....

and no YOU are not right

 

[sam04u]

Well what was actually said?.

turtleface
What is wrong with bloody Israeli's/Jews/Zionists (whatever, I don't care about the differences) and bloody Muslims/Lebanese/Arabs/whatever (again I'm dumb and I don't know what the intricate differences are and I dont give a stuff)

Can't those freaking people just get alone, ffs!

Did sam actually say that it's Israel's fault that small groups in Australia haven't integrated though?
What's the difference? Well, the major issue arises from the 'state' of Israel. Which, never should really have existed.Sounds like it to me.

It doesn't to me, I was explaining where the conflict started, and why Aryan who is as Generator said (sub-gutter level). Would bring the racist generalisations to this thread in an attempt to stir racial barriers. Making moronic assumptions such as "one guy who was muslim bashed a non-muslim, therefore all muslims are bad for society."

Well, Captain, if we use their logic.
They actually do think they are 'superior' as they're gods people, and therefore should have more rights then muslims. According to the Jews you should be their slaves, who (should be paid) ofcourse according to Halakah. Also, when you look at the mizvot, surely they can betrove your women, but none but the jews shal betrowve the jewish women. They also, (as can be seen during the recent war) value their loves more then then lives of non-jews. Ofcourse this is because they think they are gods people. (this can be seen in Israel, where non Jews are treated at the sub-standard level) having little or no rights. They're even denied rights to education at predominantly Jewish schools. Also, the national language being the language of the jews, and what not. It makes it hard for non-jews to get their basic rights, as they would neeed to learn a new language. (Ofcourse, they can only learn this language in the 'jewish schools')

[Do you see what using a polar country can do to the topic? That's why you pissed Generator off]

I don't think muslim-Australians, have an agenda to make Australia more 'Islamicised' they are a TINY minority. (1% of Australia's popilation) and up untill september 11, were free from 'most' racist generalisation. Unfortunately what can we do now? Especially with rat-bags like Aryan spreading these Lies about muslims.

-End

 

[banco55]

Or it may show how biased the media is? Are there are some muslims that have integrated? Yes. Are there some asians? Yes. Are there some people of the Jewish faith who consider themselve jews and not Australian (as if jew was a country)? Yes. Are there..... Yes every bloody migrant population has a minority who havent integrated well into Aussie culture. I think quite fairly the muslims feel like the have been victimised. I agree basically with what Howard said, but his single-ing out of muslims seems like some sort of stunt.

So you think that in every migrant population the the minority that hasn't integrated is roughly the same (in percentage)?

 

[otay]

So you think that in every migrant population the the minority that hasn't integrated is roughly the same (in percentage)?

I'd imagine they are close. But I can't see Muslims being the only, or the worst offender.

 

[sam04u]

So you think that in every migrant population the the minority that hasn't integrated is roughly the same (in percentage)?

Percentages? Well, sure, if you look at the 'degree' of integration. In countries like Iran, China, Italy, Greece, and many other countries, depending on their differences some would have to 'change' more than others. Let's say someone from britain moved to Australia. Surely, they would integrate quite well, as they already speak the national language and understand the country. Now, look at somebody who was fleeing from Israeli occupation of Lebanon in the 1980's, would they have the 'same' reflection of life as the british man? In a country where work was not to be found, education was minimal, rights were stolen and people hid in their houses from the Jewish bombardment of their countries. Surely, they would flee having a particular hatred to the world, with a different language (arabic) and no interpreters to be seen.

It was a difficult period, but when you look at the degree of integration, I'm proud of my mum who learnt to read and write english probably better then I do. (without ever attending any schools or adult education courses).
She also, has been out to "disco's", when they were called that, and most of her friends are true blue aussies. Ofcourse, she would be close to her family, as our other family in Lebanon, would want us to remain close. It's basic logic.

All you need to do is understand the degree of Integration.

-End

 

[banco55]

Percentages? Well, sure, if you look at the 'degree' of integration. In countries like Iran, China, Italy, Greece, and many other countries, depending on their differences some would have to 'change' more than others. Let's say someone from britain moved to Australia. Surely, they would integrate quite well, as they already speak the national language and understand the country. Now, look at somebody who was fleeing from Israeli occupation of Lebanon in the 1980's, would they have the 'same' reflection of life as the british man? In a country where work was not to be found, education was minimal, rights were stolen and people hid in their houses from the Jewish bombardment of their countries. Surely, they would flee having a particular hatred to the world, with a different language (arabic) and no interpreters to be seen.

It was a difficult period, but when you look at the degree of integration, I'm proud of my mum who learnt to read and write english probably better then I do. (without ever attending any schools or adult education courses).
She also, has been out to "disco's", when they were called that, and most of her friends are true blue aussies. Ofcourse, she would be close to her family, as our other family in Lebanon, would want us to remain close. It's basic logic.

All you need to do is understand the degree of Integration.

-End

I tend to think we should be taking the dificulty people from a given country will have integrating when deciding how many to take and from where. It's absurd to take say 100 000 from sudan who end up costing the government twice as much in expenses (education, dole money etc) as 100 000 from say korea.