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Islamic Imperialism (1 Viewer)

zeek

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im pretty sure that the Americans did give funding to Israel prior to 1967 because America only stepped in when Russia was supporting Egypt and other Arab state by giving them weapons to fight during the cold war.

If you have any other proof that this was not the case then can i please see?

thanks
 

banco55

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r3v3ng3 said:
im pretty sure that the Americans did give funding to Israel prior to 1967 because America only stepped in when Russia was supporting Egypt and other Arab state by giving them weapons to fight during the cold war.

If you have any other proof that this was not the case then can i please see?

thanks
This is from a very pro-arab website:

"The "special relationship" between the U.S. and Israel must be understood within the overall American imperialist project and the quest for global hegemony, beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s. For example, 99% of all U.S. aid to Israel came after 1967, despite the fact that Israel was relatively more vulnerable in earlier years (from 1948-1967). Not coincidentally, it was in 1967 that Israel won the Six Day War against several Arab countries, establishing itself as a regional superpower."

[SIZE=-1]www.washington-report.org/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm[/SIZE]



From the Jewish Virtual Library:

"Israel has received more direct aid from the United States since World War II than any other country, but the amounts for the first half of this period were relatively small. Between 1949 and 1973, the U.S. provided Israel with an average of about $122 million a year, a total of $3.1 billion (and actually more than $1 billion of that was loans for military equipment in 1971-73) . Prior to 1971, Israel received a total of only $277 million in military aid, all in the form of loans as credit sales. The bulk of the economic aid was also lent to Israel. By comparison, the Arab states received nearly three times as much aid before 1971, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year. Moreover, unlike Israel, which receives nearly all its aid from the United States, Arab nations have gotten assistance from Asia, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union and the European Community. Congress first designated a specific amount of aid for Israel (an "earmark") in 1971."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html
 

banco55

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codereder said:
then how did israel get any miltary?? they started with nothing, they werent even a country. Someone must have been supporting them. Or they produced their own? Also in the arab israeli wars what exterior forces interfered?
They begged, borrowed and stole. The weapons they used in 1948 were a combination of old british stuff left behind from the war against Rommel and surplus world war II stuff that they purchased. Their main source of funding at that time was money from American Jewry. After 1948 they purchased weapons from France (mostly) and some from US and UK up until the late 60's. The Arabs were better equipped than the Israelis (both in quality and quantity) in 1948. 1956 and 1967. Yet they still lost. It was only after 1967 that the Israelis really started to pull ahead of the arabs in quality and quantity of weapons. They are way ahead now. Remember in 1982 the Israelis humiliated the Arabs again by shooting down 80 Syrian planes without losing a single Israeli plane?
 
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sam04u

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I like the tone of this thread.

Everything seems well supported, almost no assumptions being made.
And I agree that the persian culture was stressed by Islamic Imperialism; (Because of the strong morals rooted in the Arab Culture; However persian culture has also rubbed off on the "Arab" culture. (whatever an arab is....);

Lately though... racism seems to be a thing of the past... I've experienced this first hand, people say things they themselves dont believe, some people are just programmed.

I was having a conversation with a stranger on a bus about youth...(he seemed quite old, and my beard suggested I was in my mid to late 20's.) And he said something about "Lebanese" people, to which i added "I am Lebanese"; And immediately, (without trying to seem non-racial); he explained his rash statement and we came to an agreement.

Another example; where i watched a similar discussion about homosexuals...(I myself am not really homophobic, i have an understanding for homosexuals but i don't support homosexualism); but as soon as the other person found out he was talking to a homosexual his true opinion came out.

It seems people pressure such conversation; like the idea that (all jewish are tight with money); or whatever.

Sorry, went off topic.


Back to the topic though, Can two powerful imperialistic entities coexist? Sure, why not? However, they will rub off and effect each other, the more powerful one however will dominate.

The Israel/Middle East Conflict is unfortunate, because both religions have religious ties to the land. (People want to hear that the problem will just BLOW UP and be more controversial, and hopefully that doesn't happen.... both people should Live in the country, as to who has ownership of it? The Muslims should.... It's a Muslim region... (The country being Muslim owned would not ruin its holiness to the Jewish people, Just like Jewish people living in America or Australia or anywhere else, they still stick in their close-knit communities and celebrate their own holidays.)

So whatever....(they may also have their own schools... and control the economy tooo....)
 

HotShot

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Frogurt said:
Whilst Israel no doubt is the largest recipient of US aide it is niave to think that this is why Israel has survived. look at the wars that have occured in all cases you will find that the Israeli's had more numbers were better organised and ultimately were able to out manouver the Arab States. on the Flip side you had Arab states who were acting independent of each other, were under prepared, fewer in numbers and ultimately non-commital to the establishment of a Palestinian State.

anyone who truly believes that Israel survives due to the US alone either hasn't read anything about the topic or just fails to grasp the full dynamics of the issue.
I wouldnt agree with that. If it wasnt for america ISrael wouldnt have existed -its as simple as that. It was american (directly or indirectly) that helped Israel to start a nation (otherwise where did they get they the money from-europe? most of the jews fled to america).

later usa provided a lot of militaric, prior israelis using american money again through aid from jews from usa and polictical pressure there, bought weapons from the soviet bloc.

it is true though, israel were clearly more desperate in wars and thrived to defeat the arabs.
issue essentially is -THe British fucked up that world!
 

banco55

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HotShot said:
I wouldnt agree with that. If it wasnt for america ISrael wouldnt have existed -its as simple as that. It was american (directly or indirectly) that helped Israel to start a nation (otherwise where did they get they the money from-europe? most of the jews fled to america).

later usa provided a lot of militaric, prior israelis using american money again through aid from jews from usa and polictical pressure there, bought weapons from the soviet bloc.

it is true though, israel were clearly more desperate in wars and thrived to defeat the arabs.
issue essentially is -THe British fucked up that world!
The Israelis have bested the Arabs in all spheres of life. Economic, cultural, scientific etc.
 

HotShot

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banco55 said:
The Israelis have bested the Arabs in all spheres of life. Economic, cultural, scientific etc.
ur point? they have basically been able to do this, by sucking american cock, u realise that dont u?
 

banco55

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HotShot said:
ur point? they have basically been able to do this, by sucking american cock, u realise that dont u?
My point is that the Arabs continually blame others for their problems: the americans, the british, the zionists. Remind me again how the Americans are responsible for Israeli scientists publishing more research in international academic journals annually than the entire arab world combined? Remind me again how the fact that the Israelis have 4-5 times GDP per capita than their neighbours Isreal and Syria can be laid at the door of the americans? They have got some financial help from the americans but nowhere near enough to account for the difference. The Arabs better get their act together because they are falling further and further behind the rest of the world. East Asia has already left them in the dust.
 

Frogurt

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HotShot said:
I wouldnt agree with that. If it wasnt for america ISrael wouldnt have existed -its as simple as that. It was american (directly or indirectly) that helped Israel to start a nation (otherwise where did they get they the money from-europe? most of the jews fled to america).
you base this on what precisely? the vast bulk of US aide as stated above did not occur until after the 67 war. prior to that they did borrow heavily and beg for hand outs from the communities they left behind, this is common knowledge but if you would like more substantive sources to verify my claims i suggest you look at the list i provided in my initial post.

Also it was Britain who helped the Zionists establish a nation the Balfour agreement was taken on in the League of Nations Mandate adopted in 1922. further more the General Assembly Resolution 181 demanded partition, that established two seperate territories for the Zionists and the Palestinians.

you might also wish to know that the bulk of the Zionists who were in Palestine at the time of its establishment were Russian or Eastern European, the American Jews didn't come in numbers until later.

HotShot said:
later usa provided a lot of militaric, prior israelis using american money again through aid from jews from usa and polictical pressure there, bought weapons from the soviet bloc.
again if you look at the conflicts the US's main role was providing Intel reports of enemy positions. by that stage the Israeli's already had a military of their own, that is not to say that they did not engage in joint technology development much like we engage in development but i suggest that if you want to make remarks like this at least back them up with verifiable sources.

HotShot said:
it is true though, israel were clearly more desperate in wars and thrived to defeat the arabs.
issue essentially is -THe British fucked up that world!
you've just contradicted yourself here, first you said that it was the Americans who are responsible for Israel, now you are saying it's the British? which one is it? you can't have both and you would be silly to suggest that the conflict arose or has even perpetuated this long because the US props Israel up.

also neither was "more desperate" than the other, both wanted self determination in a territory they could call their own, the Palestinians were of the opinion that they had been promised Self determination from the British during WWI and felt Betrayed by the Balfour declaration. they'd just ended what 4 or 500 years of Ottoman Rule which they weren't impressed with either so to say that they weren't as keen as the Zionists when such an important right was in sight is niave and downright rediculous.
 

Frogurt

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your link didn't work.

i'd also suggest that if you want to participate in debate actually do so. one linners hold little weight if any at all.
 
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Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.
This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

For the first time in many years, Mr. Stauffer has tallied the total cost to the US of its backing of Israel in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians. So far, he figures, the bill adds up to more than twice the cost of the Vietnam War.

And now Israel wants more. In a meeting at the White House late last month, Israeli officials made a pitch for $4 billion in additional military aid to defray the rising costs of dealing with the intifada and suicide bombings. They also asked for more than $8 billion in loan guarantees to help the country's recession-bound economy.

Considering Israel's deep economic troubles, Stauffer doubts the Israel bonds covered by the loan guarantees will ever be repaid. The bonds are likely to be structured so they don't pay interest until they reach maturity. If Stauffer is right, the US would end up paying both principal and interest, perhaps 10 years out.

Israel's request could be part of a supplemental spending bill that's likely to be passed early next year, perhaps wrapped in with the cost of a war with Iraq.

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.

"Consequently, politically, if not administratively, those outlays are part of the total package of support for Israel," argues Stauffer in a lecture on the total costs of US Middle East policy, commissioned by the US Army War College, for a recent conference at the University of Maine.

These foreign-aid costs are well known. Many Americans would probably say it is money well spent to support a beleagured democracy of some strategic interest. But Stauffer wonders if Americans are aware of the full bill for supporting Israel since some costs, if not hidden, are little known.

One huge cost is not secret. It is the higher cost of oil and other economic damage to the US after Israel-Arab wars.

In 1973, for instance, Arab nations attacked Israel in an attempt to win back territories Israel had conquered in the 1967 war. President Nixon resupplied Israel with US arms, triggering the Arab oil embargo against the US.

That shortfall in oil deliveries kicked off a deep recession. The US lost $420 billion (in 2001 dollars) of output as a result, Stauffer calculates. And a boost in oil prices cost another $450 billion.

Afraid that Arab nations might use their oil clout again, the US set up a Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That has since cost, conservatively, $134 billion, Stauffer reckons.

Other US help includes:

• US Jewish charities and organizations have remitted grants or bought Israel bonds worth $50 billion to $60 billion. Though private in origin, the money is "a net drain" on the United States economy, says Stauffer.

• The US has already guaranteed $10 billion in commercial loans to Israel, and $600 million in "housing loans." (See editor's note below.) Stauffer expects the US Treasury to cover these.

• The US has given $2.5 billion to support Israel's Lavi fighter and Arrow missile projects.

• Israel buys discounted, serviceable "excess" US military equipment. Stauffer says these discounts amount to "several billion dollars" over recent years.

• Israel uses roughly 40 percent of its $1.8 billion per year in military aid, ostensibly earmarked for purchase of US weapons, to buy Israeli-made hardware. It also has won the right to require the Defense Department or US defense contractors to buy Israeli-made equipment or subsystems, paying 50 to 60 cents on every defense dollar the US gives to Israel.

US help, financial and technical, has enabled Israel to become a major weapons supplier. Weapons make up almost half of Israel's manufactured exports. US defense contractors often resent the buy-Israel requirements and the extra competition subsidized by US taxpayers.

• US policy and trade sanctions reduce US exports to the Middle East about $5 billion a year, costing 70,000 or so American jobs, Stauffer estimates. Not requiring Israel to use its US aid to buy American goods, as is usual in foreign aid, costs another 125,000 jobs.

• Israel has blocked some major US arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s. That cost $40 billion over 10 years, says Stauffer.

Stauffer's list will be controversial. He's been assisted in this research by a number of mostly retired military or diplomatic officials who do not go public for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic if they criticize America's policies toward Israel.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
 
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codereder said:
So you're saying that US involvement in Israel is bad because its too costly? You have to substantiate these claims. Its a classic benefit vs. detriment scenario: What are the benefits of providing aid, what are the detriments and how does one outweigh the other.

The article you linked was criticised for not being objective enough, it only provided the point of view of the author and did not substantiate many of its claims. Whilst this is not a personal criticism of the author, he is perfectly entitled to be biased, it means, however that it must be balanced with other sources that represent the other side of the argument. Economic cost is only one point to consider in this instance.
 
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i was just interested of the degree to which USA supports Israel. Sure, it may not exuse the arabs for defeat against Israel in wars before 1967, but its quite obvious that its a major reason for Israel's advancement.
 

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Frogurt said:
Also it was Britain who helped the Zionists establish a nation the Balfour agreement was taken on in the League of Nations Mandate adopted in 1922. further more the General Assembly Resolution 181 demanded partition, that established two seperate territories for the Zionists and the Palestinians.

you've just contradicted yourself here, first you said that it was the Americans who are responsible for Israel, now you are saying it's the British? which one is it? you can't have both and you would be silly to suggest that the conflict arose or has even perpetuated this long because the US props Israel up.
you know moret than one country was responsible for the creation of the state of israel. Just because i focused on one doesnt mean i dismissed the other - which in turn means i wasnt contradicting. nowhere i did not say that the americans were alone responsible for the creation of israel.

but dont get me started on britain, i can write 2000 page book on how the yruined this world.

back israel. as i keep saying, they were helped financially a lot of american, indirectly or directly (i.e from the government or from its people). i ask you where did israel get the money from to buy weapons from the soviet bloc?????? they cant make u pmoney, u need to trade goods, or borrow it or aid etc.

usa did not only give intel to israel, they gave wmds, tanks, etc. more important militaric assistance. now take like this:
if america did not exist, israel would not be here now: simply becaus they would have no support. europeans are divided, and provided little especially in those days of anti-semitism. america provided an oppurtinity of unity for the jews that allowed them to support israel.
 

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Just chucking in some stuff relevant for a couple of days ago:

Following WWII Israel called for jewish ex-servicemen to fight for a Jewsih state as a result the Israeli army (unlike the Arab ones) had at the very least a backbone of trained and battle-hardened forces.

At the point of the first Arab-Isreali truce the Israelis were literally hanging on by the skin of their teeth, having nearly exhausted their supplies, if the Arab armies had pushed on there would be no Israel today.

Israel used this initial period of truce to great advantage and scoured the world buying as much weaponary as they could lay their hands on. As a result when fighting resumed Israel had actually been able to tip the balance in their favour.

In terms of aid:

It is hardly an example of American imperialism that the american jewry financially supported the nascent Israeli state. Indeed state-wise this is a position of neutrality, the US government neither substantially funding Israel nor interdicting third-party payments to Israel.

As far as the wmd/weapon supply debate:

The US did not provide Israel with WMD, rather Israel undertook an independent (of the west) joint programme with South Africa to develope its WMDs. This not the US is the source of Israeli WMDs.

Similarly you may notice that Israel produce the bulk of its own military equipment. Notice that they do not use Abrahams tanks (unlike Australia soon will - perhaps we are a US colony...) but rtaher use an indegenously developed tank. Heard of the uzi? Thats an Israeli invention which they have succesfully exported around the world.

Other military hardware has been an unauthorised knock-off of existing hardware elsewhere. The Galil machine gun/assualt rifle for instance being closely related to the Kalashnikov and Mossad agents actually stole the french plans (several tonnes of plans) for one of the mirage fighter jets and then started producing their own variant.

As far as the aid:

As brucemaster pointed out this is a cost-benefit game, yes the US gives Israel piles of money but on the other hand they gain a strategic foothold in the region and domestically they gain the votes of the Jewish lobby.

And yes in some terms Israel is a rentiir state supported not by its own output/etc but by foreign money. Though under this definition almost every state in the middle-east is a rentier state relying on petro-dollars. Given this the looming 'end-of-oil' will make the region increasingly volatile as conflict erupts over remaining oil and states are decreasingly able to buy off their populations.

Oh and if America did not exist then Europe as we know it would not exist - are you suggesting this is a good thing?
 

banco55

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HotShot said:
you know moret than one country was responsible for the creation of the state of israel. Just because i focused on one doesnt mean i dismissed the other - which in turn means i wasnt contradicting. nowhere i did not say that the americans were alone responsible for the creation of israel.

but dont get me started on britain, i can write 2000 page book on how the yruined this world.

back israel. as i keep saying, they were helped financially a lot of american, indirectly or directly (i.e from the government or from its people). i ask you where did israel get the money from to buy weapons from the soviet bloc?????? they cant make u pmoney, u need to trade goods, or borrow it or aid etc.

usa did not only give intel to israel, they gave wmds, tanks, etc. more important militaric assistance. now take like this:
if america did not exist, israel would not be here now: simply becaus they would have no support. europeans are divided, and provided little especially in those days of anti-semitism. america provided an oppurtinity of unity for the jews that allowed them to support israel.
Remember Israel was only recgnised by the US after the Israelis had kicked Arab ass. Even if the US doesn't recognise Israel they would still have declared independence and there was noone who could stop them. Least of all the incompetent Arabs. Even taking into account the soviet bloc weapons the Israelis had the Arabs were still far better armed and badly outnumbered the Israelis yet those idiots still lost.
 
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_dhj_

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HotShot said:
banco55 said:
The Israelis have bested the Arabs in all spheres of life. Economic, cultural, scientific
etc.ur point? they have basically been able to do this, by sucking american cock, u realise that dont u?
"No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat."




*I hate Israel too.
 
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ccmariners4life

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I HAVE THE PERFECT SOLUTION !!!!!!!

get everyone out of there then

NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST !!!!!

think about it ! they wont argue about the gaza strip when its coated in radio active waste !
 

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