Israel and Palestine (2 Viewers)

[MaNiElla]

You contributed alot , you deserve my best fans award. youve been following me since your first posts. Another obsessive fan of mine:rofl: with all posts directed towards me, not the topic.

Once again my old pal.......you will never learn. You just proved that you tend to post some rubbish, when you dont have a answer for a question. So unless you have the ultimate proof of users with multiple accounts, please stop harrassing other participants in this forum.

Peace Mate :wave:

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Not-That-Bright, the strikes Israel makes within the West Bank and Gaza regions are pre-emptive to prevent and deter terrorists who build strength within such regions. It must be noted thati t is not soverign territory and so Israel holds the right to enter the regions. Upon Israel's withdrawl from such regions it faced constant rocket fire, suggesting that the possibiity of peace in the region is still far away.

I'm not talking about strikes against terrorists, that's probably something I'd be more inclined to understand. I'm talking about comming in with bulldozers, uprooting local farms, destroying local homes, replacing them with israeli settlements and then calling 'defensive measures' when they're attacked. I'm talking about the occupation.

It must be noted thati t is not soverign territory and so Israel holds the right to enter the regions.

I might even accept that israel has a right to enter the regions, claim them as their own. But upon doing so they shouldn't turn the native people into 2nd class citizens living under military rule.

 

[JaredR]

The occupied territories came about as a result of the 6 Day War with Syria, Jordan and Egypt, which was supported by many other Arabic countries in the region.

Prior to this they were under the control of the respective nations listed above, and Israel had little concern. When Egypt blocked off UN Emergency Force, and blocked access to Israeli ships. Subsequently, Jordan attacked Jerusalem and in strikes to push back any further efforts of these forces Israel gained the land now known as the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

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I'd really have to research more on the occupation I don't have enough of an unbiased history on it. I respect that there are moral complications on this, politically I'm not too sure.

 

[nathan71088]

I'm not talking about strikes against terrorists, that's probably something I'd be more inclined to understand. I'm talking about comming in with bulldozers, uprooting local farms, destroying local homes, replacing them with israeli settlements and then calling 'defensive measures' when they're attacked. I'm talking about the occupation.



I might even accept that israel has a right to enter the regions, claim them as their own. But upon doing so they shouldn't turn the native people into 2nd class citizens living under military rule.

"I'm talking about the occupation." Which area do you mean is occupied?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

"I'm talking about the occupation." Which area do you mean is occupied?

The west bank and the gaza strip.

The occupied territories came about as a result of the 6 Day War with Syria, Jordan and Egypt, which was supported by many other Arabic countries in the region.

Prior to this they were under the control of the respective nations listed above, and Israel had little concern. When Egypt blocked off UN Emergency Force, and blocked access to Israeli ships. Subsequently, Jordan attacked Jerusalem and in strikes to push back any further efforts of these forces Israel gained the land now known as the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Oslo?

It's really not that simple, but to get away from the legal arguments... Is it wrong for israel to (after invading a land in self defence) remove the local citizens from their homes, destroy their crops, set up their own new communities and exclude the local population?

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

I miss the threads that weren't about Israel. That being said...

1. Arab states
2. Providing that they target only terrorists wityhout decimating a few thousand civilians, then yes.
4. No. I don't see how anybody could.
5. Not at all.

 

[nathan71088]

The west bank and the gaza strip.



Oslo?

It's really not that simple, but to get away from the legal arguments... Is it wrong for israel to (after invading a land in self defence) remove the local citizens from their homes, destroy their crops, set up their own new communities and exclude the local population?

"The west bank and the gaza strip." These lands had to be part of a country to be occupied. Rather they should be referred to as disputed territories.

"The gaza strip"...part of palestine...? Where is it on a map?

You speak of bulldozing and tearing up land and farms. Are you familiar with the disengagement and what happened at Gush Katif?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

"The west bank and the gaza strip." These lands had to be part of a country to be occupied. Rather they should be referred to as disputed territories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories#Applicability_of_the_term_.22occupied.22

"The gaza strip"...part of palestine...? Where is it on a map?

LOL LETS JUST PRETEND THERE'S NOTHING THERE BECAUSE OF A WEAKLY-ARGUABLE LEGAL BLACK HOLE.

You speak of bulldozing and tearing up land and farms. Are you familiar with the disengagement and what happened at Gush Katif?

Yes, this justifies Israel destroying palestinian crops? I'll wait for this.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

I might even accept that israel has a right to enter the regions, claim them as their own. But upon doing so they shouldn't turn the native people into 2nd class citizens living under military rule.

It is palestinians who turn themselves into 2nd Class citizen by trying to kill settlers, there would be no need for security wall and military posts if they stop their attacks on settlers. If Arabs can live peacefully inside israel why cant Israelis inside west bank? Israelis do not try to kill arabs daily inside Israel like Palestinians did to settlers inside west bank.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It is palestinians who turn themselves into 2nd Class citizen by trying to kill settlers, there would be no need for security wall and military posts if they stop their attacks on settlers.

But they only attack the settlers etc because they've had settlements imposed illegally on their lands

If Arabs can live peacefully inside israel why cant Israelis inside west bank?

These are not palestinians.

Israelis do not try to kill arabs daily inside Israel like Palestinians did to settlers inside west bank.

But Israeli's do try to kill palestinians, they also impose severe restrictions on their movement.

 

[nathan71088]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories#Applicability_of_the_term_.22occupied.22



LOL LETS JUST PRETEND THERE'S NOTHING THERE BECAUSE OF A WEAKLY-ARGUABLE LEGAL BLACK HOLE.



Yes, this justifies Israel destroying palestinian crops? I'll wait for this.



But Israeli's do try to kill palestinians, they also impose severe restrictions on their movement.

It is not about justification. YOu are criticizing Israel so I criticized Palestine. And a country which is in possession of land can do what it wants to it, just like how the Palestinians destroyed houses and synagogues when they took control of Gush Katif. You will then tell me that it is Palestinian land. Well if you wish to argue that, fine, but don't say that Israel destroys Palestinian crops unti lyou have fully established it is their land.

"But Israeli's do try to kill palestinians, they also impose severe restrictions on their movement." Let's try and be a bit logical, or even creative at least because I keep hearing the same thing again and again, that Israel "wishes to destroy Palestinians", not Palestine, mind you, but Palestinians. Israel is hell bent on wiping out a nation of people! Why? What is Israels motive. Clearly you know what it is because you are condeming them for it. So please enlighten me...

And if you do not have an answer, maybe you are condeming for the wrong reasons and you should re-think your argument.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

And a country which is in possession of land can do what it wants to it, just like how the Palestinians destroyed houses and synagogues when they took control of Gush Katif.

So now palestine is a country? I disagree with what the palestinians did also, but their actions are not leading to the destitution of millions of people so it's of little concern to me.

Well if you wish to argue that, fine, but don't say that Israel destroys Palestinian crops unti lyou have fully established it is their land.

So how do we distinguish between which land belongs to palestinians and which does not according to you? Do they have no land? If so, can the Israeli's persecute a group of people based on their crede?

Let's try and be a bit logical, or even creative at least because I keep hearing the same thing again and again, that Israel "wishes to destroy Palestinians", not Palestine, mind you, but Palestinians.

I don't think Israel as a state cares much about Palestinian people, though much of the Israeli population definately does. As a state it just wishes to grab more land and consolidate its power against other forces (i.e. the PLO).

Israel is hell bent on wiping out a nation of people! Why? What is Israels motive. Clearly you know what it is because you are condeming them for it. So please enlighten me...

More land for settlements/their own crops, greater control of natural resources such as water... the usual thing these problems are caused by.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

So now palestine is a country? I disagree with what the palestinians did also, but their actions are not leading to the destitution of millions of people so it's of little concern to me.

Aside from that, there's also the point to be made that Israel has been a lot more forceful, destructive etc than Palestine ever has (maybe due to the comparative wealth). Oh, by the way...

It is not about justification.

Yes, it is.

 

[nathan71088]

So now palestine is a country? I disagree with what the palestinians did also, but their actions are not leading to the destitution of millions of people so it's of little concern to me.



So how do we distinguish between which land belongs to palestinians and which does not according to you? Do they have no land? If so, can the Israeli's persecute a group of people based on their crede?



I don't think Israel as a state cares much about Palestinian people, though much of the Israeli population definately does. As a state it just wishes to grab more land and consolidate its power against other forces (i.e. the PLO).



More land for settlements/their own crops, greater control of natural resources such as water... the usual thing these problems are caused by.

"So now palestine is a country?" By this do u mean that Palestine is not a country? If this is the case then you have flawed yourself. COnsidering Palestine is not a country, the palestinian people wish for land that is not theirs to begin with.

"but their actions are not leading to the destitution of millions of people so it's of little concern to me." So since the palestinians and other terrorists kill only small numbers at random times and not in a military operation that doesn't concern you...WOWWW thats diplomatic.


So how do we distinguish between which land belongs to palestinians and which does not according to you? Do they have no land? If so, can the Israeli's persecute a group of people based on their crede? This is a silly question and you know it: We can distinguish who has land and who doesn't, and if you can't I can't really help you. And you know Israel does not persecute Palestinians because they are palestinian, once again if you think they do I can't help you because...well obviously I'm not gonna change your mind on that am I.


"More land for settlements/their own crops, greater control of natural resources such as water... the usual thing these problems are caused by." Once again, a country that owns land has a right to do with it what it wants, actually no, your right they can't, next time the government of Australia tries to improve your standard of living with a new damn or plantation, you should be at the forefront stopping them because it is destructive to the people living there...don't forget the animals either, we wouldn't wanna persecute them now would we?

 

[S1M0]

I find it offensive Simo that you can think that any act of terrorism is justifiable.

ARGUABLY OFFENSIVE.

I did not declare any terrorism act as justifiable, but that it could be arguably justified, depending on perspectives on the issue, etc.

My stance is that terrorism is wrong. End of story.

Quit mixing people's words around mate.

 

[extraordinary07]

terrorism is bad, i dont like it.

i'm new here

hello

do you agree

algard, please say something!

 

[JaredR]

Nebuchanezzar, I hope much of what you say on these forums is done in jest and that you don't seriously believe what you're saying, and if you do, I hope that you don't implore the future students you may have to share similar Anti-Zionist views, that demand the destruction of an entire country.

 

[MaNiElla]

Nebuchanezzar, I hope much of what you say on these forums is done in jest and that you don't seriously believe what you're saying, and if you do, I hope that you don't implore the future students you may have to share similar Anti-Zionist views, that demand the destruction of an entire country.

and I also hope that you and aryanBeauty don't implore the future students you may have to share similar Anti-Islamic and Anti-Arab views, that demand the destruction of an entire country (such as palestine or other counties that Aryan keeps dissing)

 

[JaredR]

Maniella, have you read my posts? I do not condone or endorse Anti-Islamic sentiment. Have a read, just because I may be from Israel or show support towaards it doesn't make me anti-Islamic!

Anti-Islamic sentiment...the product of a healthy society? Hardly.

Aryan, whilst I may agree with much of what you support/argue, I don't feel it in any way assists any efforts of religious harmony in BoredOfStudies which in turn affects Australian society because people take your pro-Israeli stance as an assumption that you are Jewish. Subsequently your Anti-Islamic remarks from a perceived Jewish perspective portray that the Jewish population is Anti-Islamic.

Your extremist views would not be supported by any Zionist movement. As the sole liberal western democracy in the entire Middle East I hope you as a supporter of Israel would alternately be seeking religious harmony and peace.

Wars have been raging between the two religions for so long, why bring it to Australia and why bring it to this forum?

Toda ve layla tov. [Hebrew for: Thanks and good night]

Those are my words. So why don't you pay attention to the posts I make if you want to comment directly at me.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Nebuchanezzar, I hope much of what you say on these forums is done in jest and that you don't seriously believe what you're saying, and if you do, I hope that you don't implore the future students you may have to share similar Anti-Zionist views, that demand the destruction of an entire country.

I'll tell you what would be worse? If a diehard Zionist got in control of a bunch of kids...like Aryan Beauty for instance.

To clarify, the post I made elsewhere calling for the destruction of Israel was clearly not a post to be taken seriously. What do I believe? I think that a two party state, a unification of both would have been possible if both sides had been willing to comprimise. Of course, that doesn't mean that both were equally wrong. Aside from the fact that Israel forced its way into the region with international help post-WWII, they've clearly been the aggressor in almost every situation. A terrorist blows him/herself up in a market, so Israel launches an air strike on a city in Palestine. Some Lebanese extremists capture an Israeli soldier or two, so Israel launches a full blown offensive against the entire state of Lebanon. There's really no two ways about it; Israel has been more wrong than right in their brief modern history, and they origin doesn't speak volumes for them either. So what should the solution be? Seems obvious that Israel is going to stay, seems obvious that Palestine is at least willing to bargain with them in some way and it seems obvious that Israel is willing to comprimise to a certain degree also. You can understand the objections on the Palestinian side of things, based on the fact that Israel did force their way into the region, but it's very hard to understand Israeli objections based on religious folklore, etc.

Regardless, I mentioned that I believe a two party state would have once been possible. Do I think it's still possible? Perhaps, but it would require a great deal of comprimise from both sides even though Israel should have a lot less grounds for bargaining.

So indeed, should an entire states citizens be thrown out to sea? No, even though that would be the fair thing to do. Israel doesn't belong where it is, and that's the fact of the entire matter. The best thing to do would be to create a two party state. If Israel doesn't oblige, they've very little to stand on. If Palestine doesn't oblige...well, one could understand that a bit more than Israels position.